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Topic:
Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/15 12:51pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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BobaMatt posted:
you're everything.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/15 12:53pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Ulicus posted:
Summoning that level of belief and even maintaining it, is an incredible mental strain. I, for example, know how the process of multiplication works... but I would have much more difficulty working out 929482948 x 24829481 in my head than 5 x 5.
And that's because of your lack of "true and absolute belief" in the power of multiplication, I presume?
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/15 12:58pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/15 1:03pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Ulicus
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Analogy: drawing a comparison in order to show a similarity in some respect; "the operation of a computer presents and interesting analogy to the working of the brain"; "the models show by analogy how matter is built up"
Do I think they are absolutely, 100% and in every way comparible? No. I'm just saying that somethings are more mentally exhausting than others.
The point is: "just because you know how the process works, doesn't mean getting results is always the same level of difficulty"
Arawn_Fenn posted:
BobaMatt posted:
you're everything.
Well, you're connected to everything through the Force. (But that's probably true while you're alive, too. It's just... a Force Ghost can make full use of those connections?)
I wouldn't say you "were everything", though, no.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/15 1:11pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
Ulicus posted:
Summoning that level of belief and even maintaining it, is an incredible mental strain. I, for example, know how the process of multiplication works... but I would have much more difficulty working out 929482948 x 24829481 in my head than 5 x 5.
And that's because of your lack of "true and absolute belief" in the power of multiplication, I presume?
No, it's because he can't wrap his head around it as easily, which, if one were to actually address the point and the argument rather than try to divert attention away from them, is the equivalent to a "lack of true and absolute belief."
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/15 1:16pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/15 1:17pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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Nobody's diverting anything. That baseless accusation is itself a feeble attempt at diversion.
The inability to do 35468908978897 x 8973894049 in one's head IN NO WAY equates to a lack of true and absolute belief or faith in the power of multiplication.
But as I've already pointed out, any two concepts seem to be potentially interchangeable to you.
Because everything is one. 
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/15 1:20pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Actually, I think Uli's definition of an analogy pretty much covers that one.
First you're trying to disprove what Yoda tells Luke about the Force; then you're saying that Force ghosts are not powerful; then you ridicule the belief systems the the Force is based on, the ones being used in this discussion to examine the nature of the Force, in what seems like an effort to discredit any attempt to approach the discussion from this point of view. Any other analogies made get holes poked in them if they're not exact - a key component in an analogy.
So, like I said, it would seem that you're simultaneously denying EU in favor of movie-canon in the lit forum, and then trying to tear holes in what the movies themselves establish. You finish it off by calling stupid any attempt anyone makes to address the points being made through use of outside evidence, analogy, or parallel. So...what are we even doing here?
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/15 1:22pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/15 1:29pm (5 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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>>First you're trying to disprove what Yoda tells Luke about the Force
No, you mean "you're trying to disprove what I've added to what Yoda tells Luke about the Force".
>>it would seem that you're simultaneously denying EU in favor of movie-canon
Shadows of the Empire is not EU? 
Actually, I was begging for a citation from an EU source other than Darth Chickenhead...
>>Actually, I think Uli's definition of an analogy pretty much covers that one.
My position on "Qui-Gon is the Force" is shared by Ulicus. See above.
So does that mean that Ulicus is also "denying EU"?
>>then you ridicule the belief systems the the Force is based on
Yeah, that really happened.
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/15 1:31pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/15 1:33pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Ulicus
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
The inability to do 35468908978897 x 8973894049 in one's head IN NO WAY equates to a lack of true and absolute belief or faith in the power of multiplication.
Right, lets boil this down:
Knowing that you can use the Force to do "anything" that you truly believe - Knowing you can multiply numbers and how the process works
Using the Force to move a rock - multiplying 5 x 5
Using the Force to move a Star Destroyer - multiplying 35468908978897 x 8973894049
Using the Force to move a rock and using the Force to move a Star Destroyer is the same process, with a different mental difficulty. Using the process of multiplication to do 5 x 5 and 35468908978897 x 8973894049 is the same process, with a different mental difficulty.
The point is that things that utilise the same process can have a different difficulty on a mental level. Which is why you don't get Jedi Force-slinging mountains about.
The point is NOT that:
Using the Force to move a rock and using the Force to move a Star Destroyer is the same process, with a different mental difficulty.
=
Using the process of multiplication to do 5 x 5 and 35468908978897 x 8973894049 is the same process, with a different mental difficulty.
In any literal way.
No-one said anything about "believing in the power of multiplication". You don't take on bit from one side of the analogy and move it into the other. They are comparable. They are not the same.
You're essentially arguing that Orwell suggested that Lenin was actually a pig and that the Socialist Revolution of Russia took place on a farm.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/15 1:34pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
>>First you're trying to disprove what Yoda tells Luke about the Force
No, you mean "you're trying to disprove what I've added to what Yoda tells Luke about the Force".
"No, not different. Only different in your mind. [...] Size matters not." - Yoda.
Arawn_Fenn posted:
>>it would seem that you're simultaneously denying EU in favor of movie-canon
Shadows of the Empire is not EU?
Fine, then you're being even more contradictory than I first realized, bringing in something from SotE, but then later denying that the EU's mentions of becoming one with the Force as valid.
Arawn_Fenn posted:
>>Actually, I think Uli's definition of an analogy pretty much covers that one.
My position on "Qui-Gon is the Force" is shared by Ulicus. See above.
So does that mean that Ulicus is also "denying EU"?
I fail to see how that addresses the quoted bit. In terms of this particular argument, though, I'm less concerned with your disagreeing than your failure to actually argue the points being made, choosing instead to ridicule personally and misrepresent what's being said, for example your harping on my apparent tendency to think any two concepts are interchangeable because I happened to mention pantheistic worldviews as an influence on the Force, or pretending not to understand Uli's math analogy.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/15 1:36pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/15 1:45pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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IMO after 850+ years of using it successfully, Yoda's belief in the Force should be pretty damn near absolute.
BobaMatt posted:
denying that the EU's mentions of becoming one with the Force as valid.
"One with the Force" is a phrase. In fact, it's a phrase popularized by the EU ( it didn't appear in the OT ) and when the EU used the phrase "one with the Force" prior to 2005, it generally had nothing to do with Force ghosting ( see SOTE, etc. ) It usually referred to a Jedi being in a meditative state.
Currently, it's popular to use the phrase "one with the Force" to refer to Force ghosts. That's probably due to the ROTS script. Why it didn't make it into the film is anyone's guess.
What I'm denying is that "one with the Force" means the same thing as "interchangeable with the whole of the Force".
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/15 1:38pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Agreed. Why, then, did Uli and I have to argue to get you to accept his views on telekinesis?
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/15 1:48pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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BobaMatt posted:
Agreed. Why, then, did Uli and I have to argue to get you to accept his views on telekinesis?
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Dawud786
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
5/17 8:48am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/17 9:36am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Dawud786
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BobaMatt posted:
Qui-Gon, Yoda, and Obi-Wan are all avatars of the Force, in a pantheist sense, somewhere between Boddhisattvas and Hindu gods. They cease to be beings sensitive to the Force and level up to become beings OF the Force.
Edit: So yes, Uli, I agree with your edit, for the most part.
I think more accurate is not "pantheist" but the fact that in the ROTS novelization the coversation is that one could join one's own light with the light of the Force by surrendering all sense of "self" and thus becoming One with the Force. To the point of the body actually going into the light of the Force as well. It's very much like the Sufi doctrine of fana fi-Allah wa baqa bi-Allah(annihilation in God and subsistence with God). It is the highest achievement of Islamic mysticism, in other words... the Jedi completely gives up himself, thus becoming annihilated in the Force the point that Obi-Wan and Yoda literally physically disappear... and only later do they find subsistence with the Force to the point that they aren't even speaking as themselves... but as total servants of the Force. Purely that. There is no other desire of Obi-Wan Kenobi but to speak to Luke the will of the Force. The same is true of Yoda. To the point that I'd say they'd already achieved that mystic union to it's near fullness prior to their on-screen deaths. They effectively died(to themselves) before (physical)death, which is a concept that Prophet Muhammad put forth.
The basis of that is in the ROTS novelization which was written with a great deal more consultation with GL than any of hte other PT novelizations.
More importantly, before 2005 I was using One with the Force to mean Force ghosting... not a meditative state. So I don't know why you're brining 2005 in as that. I'm certain that "one with the Force" was meant exclusively for Jedi who became Force spirits upon death when it was assumed that ALL Jedi did that upon death, not that they didn't become one with the Force.
EDIT: Of further interest, the coversation between Yoda and Qui-Gon in the ROTS novelzation not only discusses just what exactly "Force ghosting" is(IE. joining one's own light with the Light of the Force thus becoming mystically One with the Force), but it also addresses the discorporealization of the body into the Force. I like to think of it like an alchemical transmutation of physical matter into spiritual energy. In any case, Qui-Gon actually tells Yoda he may even be able to reach such a high level of Union with the Force that he'd be able to transmute his body into a spirit body AT WILL. That strongly suggests, to me, that Obi-Wan and Yoda both had already achieved the aforementioned annihilation in the Force by the time Luke began his tutelage with them. Anakin Skywalker's Union with the Force is a bit more complicated I think... I'm not particularly satisfied with the roundabout explanation that he was instructed in the method spiritually before he'd either fully died or his soul left his body and disipated into the Force. I tend to think of it very much like the Quranic concept of martyrdom("Do not say that those who are killed in the way of God are dead, for indeed they are alive, even though you are not aware" 2:154)... he gave his life in the way of the Force out of love for his son which allowed him to transcend his own ego abyss(Darth Vader) and was rewarded with subsistence in the Force.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/17 4:45pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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In a nutshell, I think from the fact Obi Wan's Ghost is proven WRONG is enough to indicate he is not actually what you suggest is an avatar of God or at the very least, an angel.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/17 5:12pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Yes, "maintaining one's identity" should preclude becoming truly an avatar of "God".
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