Author Topic: What is the most evil act in all of Star Wars?
DarthUr  1370 posts
Registered: Oct '08
Date Posted: 10/20/08 2:02pm Subject: RE: What is the most evil act in all of Star Wars?
Apparently.

I think continuing to recognize The Crystal Star as canon may be the most evil act in the Star Wars universe.

 

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Lord_Boney  262 posts
Registered: Nov '07
6135_Count Dooku
Date Posted: 10/20/08 2:09pm Subject: RE: What is the most evil act in all of Star Wars?
Irrespective of what one may think of the morality of its destruction, Alderaan was a legitimate military target, even if Grand Moff Tarkin had no authority to order its destruction. If we are to go by death toll alone, it is very likely that General Grievous’ bombardment of the ecumenopolis and Core World Founder of Humbarine was the singular most evil act in galactic history.

 

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DarthUr  1370 posts
Registered: Oct '08
Date Posted: 10/20/08 2:16pm Subject: RE: What is the most evil act in all of Star Wars?
No, it isn't. Bombing a civilian target merely because of their political or economic support for the opposing forces is *not* acceptable. It is a war crime. The fact that many countries, including the USA, have committed war crimes in the past and been unapologetic for it does not excuse it.

 

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darth_degnan  159 posts
Registered: Sep '08
41670_Darth Nihl
Date Posted: 10/20/08 2:39pm Subject: RE: What is the most evil act in all of Star Wars?
Everything Jacen did as Darth Cadeus was pretty bad. He killed his Aunt. Killed Fett's daughter. Tortured Ben. Torched Kashyyk (sp). He really wasn't a nice guy.

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Tyber_Zahn  912 posts
Registered: Sep '08
41993_Tyber Zann
Date Posted: 10/20/08 4:33pm Subject: RE: What is the most evil act in all of Star Wars?
<i>Although even then it's a false analogy, because "planets = cities" is wrongheaded -- a real comparison to that would be a Star Destroyer blowing up the capital city *on* Alderaan. Blowing up the entire planet is, well, blowing up an entire planet. Imagine killing everyone on Earth because of something people in Tokyo had done. </i>

Bear in mind that things are on a drastically larger scale in Star Wars as their civilsation spans a galaxy rather than just one planet. On that scale a planet would be the equivalent of a city. Not that blowing it up wasn't an act evil, but it did make a certain tactical sense. No planet was going to dare rebel against the Empire after that little demonstration.

 

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DarthUr  1370 posts
Registered: Oct '08
Date Posted: 10/20/08 4:35pm Subject: RE: What is the most evil act in all of Star Wars?
Yes, the galaxy exists on a much larger scale than our world.

And thus blowing up a planet is a much larger scale of evil than blowing up a city in our world, and should be treated as such.

The fact that there are more human lives doesn't mean each individual human life is worth less. It just means that "strategic actions" like the Alderaan massacre are far, far more evil than anything anyone in our world can carry out.

 

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Lord_Boney  262 posts
Registered: Nov '07
6135_Count Dooku
Date Posted: 10/20/08 5:05pm Subject: RE: What is the most evil act in all of Star Wars?
"No, it isn't. Bombing a civilian target merely because of their political or economic support for the opposing forces is *not* acceptable."

Alderaan was a member of the founding trio of the Alliance to Restore the Republic, an illegal insurrection aiming to overthrow the legitimate galactic government. It was a signatory of the Corellian Treaty, which “vowed to overturn the Empire”, and had ratified the Declaration of Rebellion which claimed “the unalienable right to abolish it (i.e. the Empire) from the Galaxy”. Contrary to its pacifistic façade, Alderaan possessed defense systems “as strong as any in the Empire” and sheltered numerous traitors and fugitives from the Empire. Prior to its destruction it had been engaged in open rebellion for two years, and had donated funds, fleet assets, munitions, and personnel to the Alliance to Restore the Republic. Immediately prior to its destruction, it was guarded by a large Rebel Alliance fleet, which engaged an Imperial squadron engaged in a reconnaissance mission. Clearly, these are not the actions of an pacifistic, impartial civilian target.

 

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DarthUr  1370 posts
Registered: Oct '08
Date Posted: 10/20/08 5:37pm Subject: RE: What is the most evil act in all of Star Wars?
It is not necessary for a civilian target to be "impartial" in order for it to be a civilian target and off-limits for strategic bombing.

If a civilian city is providing funding, political support, etc. for a cause, that doesn't make it a "military asset" of that cause or an acceptable military target. Being defended by military forces of the opposing force does not make a city an acceptable military target.

Hell, even if that city is the *capital city* of the opposing force and contains the political leaders of the opposing force, blowing up the city is still a war crime. Assassination is expressly forbidden by the Geneva Conventions.

Seriously, you're basically saying an acceptable military target is any population center that helps out the enemy in any way. In which case all targets you'd actually want to bomb in the first place would be "acceptable" targets -- the only unacceptable targets are targets you gain no benefit from bombing. That certainly passes the most important test for bellicose nations for a code of ethics -- convenience.

This kind of nonsense flies in the face of the whole point of saying there is such a thing as ethics of war and war crimes at all. And yes, big powerful countries *have* violated ethics of war and *have* committed war crimes willy nilly when it was convenient, and that doesn't make it okay in real life -- much less in some hypothetical world where the people being killed number in the billions.

The theoretically potentially acceptable response to Alderaan would've been to send ground troops to Alderaan to arrest Bail Organa and impose a regime change on the planet. A less-acceptable but still-within-the-limits-of-sanity atrocity to commit would've been an orbital strike against the capital city of Aldera in order to assassinate Bail Organa.

Destroying the *entire planet* -- without even an evacuation warning for the civilians -- is a flat-out unjustifiable atrocity. Arguing that it's a "legitimate military target" puts you in the category of people who think *everything* is a legitimate military target, that there is no ethical problem with total war because War Is War, and who therefore support war crimes and war criminals (because by this definition there can never be a "war criminal" as long as the crimes they were committing were intended to win the war).

 

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UnknownRogue  52 posts
Registered: Oct '08
6341_Rogue Squadron Seal
Date Posted: 10/20/08 5:53pm Subject: RE: What is the most evil act in all of Star Wars?
While Alderaan's destruction is horrific and Anakin's slaughter of younglings is awful they can be consdiered done for a noble purpose, preparing the galaxy for the threat of the Yuuzhan Vong, like Kinman suggests in Outbound Flight.

The Yuuzhan Vong invasion isnt evil in and of itself, that is the whole point of the series, they are purging and saving us from ourselves, not killing and hurting for fun.

I would have to pick an atrocity from LotF. Caedus killing Boba Fetts daughter unseats me the most. Also the killing of Mara jade, that was one of the worst moments I have read...almost as bad as chewbacca death.

So for me I think Caedus killin Ailyn or Mara is the most evil act, even though its only one person.

 

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Darth-Ghost  5778 posts
Registered: Oct '03
48129_Anakin Skywalker (42109)
Date Posted: 10/20/08 6:10pm Subject: RE: What is the most evil act in all of Star Wars?
UnknownRogue posted:
While Alderaan's destruction is horrific and Anakin's slaughter of younglings is awful they can be consdiered done for a noble purpose, preparing the galaxy for the threat of the Yuuzhan Vong, like Kinman suggests in Outbound Flight.

The Yuuzhan Vong invasion isnt evil in and of itself, that is the whole point of the series, they are purging and saving us from ourselves, not killing and hurting for fun.

I would have to pick an atrocity from LotF. Caedus killing Boba Fetts daughter unseats me the most. Also the killing of Mara jade, that was one of the worst moments I have read...almost as bad as chewbacca death.

So for me I think Caedus killin Ailyn or Mara is the most evil act, even though its only one person.


How did Anakin killing younglings or Tarkin blowing up Alderaan help the galaxy prepare for the Yuuzhan Vong?

 

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UnknownRogue  52 posts
Registered: Oct '08
6341_Rogue Squadron Seal
Date Posted: 10/20/08 6:14pm Subject: RE: What is the most evil act in all of Star Wars?
Well, Palpatine had to get rid of the idealistic Jedi, slaughtering the younglings was a most to do that. As you can see the Jedi coddled the Vong a bit, because Alpha Red would have done the job quickly and efficiently.
Alderaan's pacifism could have spread and created a more powerful following and if the galaxy had been any weaker the Vong would have captured it.

Its all theoretical, if Palpatine really did everything he did for the sake of hardening the Galaxy against the Vong. That was the reason he destroyed Outbound Flight. That was supposedly why he was taking control. Things would be radically different if the Empire had been at full steam, alive and kicking when the Vong showed up, for better or for worse, I am not sure.

 

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AdmiralNick22  6949 posts
Registered: May '03
7783_Ackbar
Date Posted: 10/20/08 6:19pm Subject: RE: What is the most evil act in all of Star Wars?
Lord_Boney posted:
"No, it isn't. Bombing a civilian target merely because of their political or economic support for the opposing forces is *not* acceptable."

Alderaan was a member of the founding trio of the Alliance to Restore the Republic, an illegal insurrection aiming to overthrow the legitimate galactic government. It was a signatory of the Corellian Treaty, which “vowed to overturn the Empire”, and had ratified the Declaration of Rebellion which claimed “the unalienable right to abolish it (i.e. the Empire) from the Galaxy”. Contrary to its pacifistic façade, Alderaan possessed defense systems “as strong as any in the Empire” and sheltered numerous traitors and fugitives from the Empire. Prior to its destruction it had been engaged in open rebellion for two years, and had donated funds, fleet assets, munitions, and personnel to the Alliance to Restore the Republic. Immediately prior to its destruction, it was guarded by a large Rebel Alliance fleet, which engaged an Imperial squadron engaged in a reconnaissance mission. Clearly, these are not the actions of an pacifistic, impartial civilian target.




Pah, that "large Rebel Alliance fleet" appears only in Empire at War. IMO, it was one of the weakest parts of that game. Mon Calamari cruisers were barely even active pre-Yavin, plus there was no unified Alliance fleet until Ackbar's appointment in 1 ABY.

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Darth-Ghost  5778 posts
Registered: Oct '03
48129_Anakin Skywalker (42109)
Date Posted: 10/20/08 6:22pm Subject: RE: What is the most evil act in all of Star Wars?
UnknownRogue posted:
Well, Palpatine had to get rid of the idealistic Jedi, slaughtering the younglings was a most to do that. As you can see the Jedi coddled the Vong a bit, because Alpha Red would have done the job quickly and efficiently.
Alderaan's pacifism could have spread and created a more powerful following and if the galaxy had been any weaker the Vong would have captured it.

Its all theoretical, if Palpatine really did everything he did for the sake of hardening the Galaxy against the Vong. That was the reason he destroyed Outbound Flight. That was supposedly why he was taking control. Things would be radically different if the Empire had been at full steam, alive and kicking when the Vong showed up, for better or for worse, I am not sure.


That wasn't the reason, just one of his excuses for justification. Palpatine was evil and knew it, he just knew how to manipulate others and knew more than most people did. You're making it sound like Palpatine was a misunderstood Hero.

 

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UnknownRogue  52 posts
Registered: Oct '08
6341_Rogue Squadron Seal
Date Posted: 10/20/08 6:29pm Subject: RE: What is the most evil act in all of Star Wars?
Well I believe that was part of the point of Outbound Flight. Kinman says his Master has forseen the invasion. Now, Palpatine knows what coming and how he goes about preparing for it is classic Sith. I believe if a Jedi like Kenth Hamner had that foresight he would have done the same but done it differently.

The point is we don't know Palpatine's justification for it. Killing Jedi wasn't a problem for him so killing the few that were on Outbound Flight seemed hardly worth it. Trying to prevent The Vong from getting their hands on more Republic tech makes much more sense then killing a handful of Jedi...only one of which could have stood against him.

I will admit that I do liek the idea of Palpatine being a misguided hero but I wont hold my breath for a moment.

 

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DarthUr  1370 posts
Registered: Oct '08
Date Posted: 10/20/08 6:31pm Subject: RE: What is the most evil act in all of Star Wars?
UnknownRogue posted:
While Alderaan's destruction is horrific and Anakin's slaughter of younglings is awful they can be consdiered done for a noble purpose, preparing the galaxy for the threat of the Yuuzhan Vong, like Kinman suggests in Outbound Flight.


One of the major themes of Star Wars is that evil-for-a-good-cause is still evil, especially since the means tend to infect the ends. Keep drawing on the Dark Side for a good cause and one day you wake up and you're not interested in the good cause anymore.

Although I do agree that the YV were so ridiculously over-the-top bad (like they actually wanted to set up a kind of strawman argument for why the Empire "wasn't so bad") that the YV undercut the whole point of the Star Wars series. Like making up an invading Martian army to justify supporting Hitler in WWII. (How could *anything* be worse than Martians who plan to eat the entire planet and torture everything on it to death?)

UnknownRogue posted:
The Yuuzhan Vong invasion isnt evil in and of itself, that is the whole point of the series, they are purging and saving us from ourselves, not killing and hurting for fun.


Um, the point of the YV is that they're insane fanatics who are incapable of fully understanding the context of their actions. This doesn't make them "not evil" -- do you think religious fanatics bent on exterminating all nonbelievers to "save them from themselves" are not evil?

UnknownRogue posted:
I would have to pick an atrocity from LotF. Caedus killing Boba Fetts daughter unseats me the most. Also the killing of Mara jade, that was one of the worst moments I have read...almost as bad as chewbacca death.

So for me I think Caedus killin Ailyn or Mara is the most evil act, even though its only one person.


Okay, the degree of evil of an act does not correlate with how much you liked the specific person that was killed.

Of all the things Caedus has done, killing Ailyn or Mara are probably the *least* evil. Ailyn and Mara are both combatants, and Caedus attacked both while they were in the midst of committing acts of war. (Caedus attacked Mara *while she was trying to find him to kill him*, which is arguably self-defense.)

It disturbs me that you think this is somehow worse than Jacen choosing to commit genocide against the Wookiees because you like both of them as characters more than you like faceless Wookiees.

In general I find it disturbing when people treat the deaths of soldiers -- who are *themselves killers* and who *volunteered to put themselves in harm's way* -- as somehow more morally disturbing than the deaths of civilians, when it should be exactly the opposite.

 

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