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Author	Topic: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: I, Jedi!
beccatoria Title: 181st Imperial Discussion Group host Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 5/1 5:17am Subject: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: I, Jedi! - Date Edited: 5/1 5:18am (1 edits total) Edited By: beccatoria
	Ladies and Gentlebeings, welcome to the inaugural 181st Imperial Discussion Group Thread! This month, we will be discussing I, Jedi. So I declare the floor open! Please, post and share your thoughts on reading or re-reading I, Jedi. I'll be chipping in with my own opinions as we go. In case anyone wants a starting point, I have prepared a few discussion points, but please don't feel limited to these topics! - What did you think of the decision to write it with a first-person point of view? Did it help the characterisation or hinder it? Did it take a while to get used to or did it flow well from the start? - What did you make of the continuity issues with the wider EU? Do any of you have retcons to explain why the Clone Wars and Neeja's death in this novel take place 20 years earlier than in canon? - Did anything ring differently to you in the context of the modern EU? (For instance Booster wondering if a Jedi was still capable of love in light of the no-attachments rule, or Corran experiencing Neeja's last few moments before he ghosted, perhaps adding to the NJO's understanding of this technique?) - What did you make of the way the dark side was presented? The split between the metaphysical and mysterious with Exar Kun and the real and brutal with Corran posing as Jenos among the Invids? Finally, just to let you know that next month we will be discussing, Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm by Michael P Kube-McDowell. The next two books in the trilogy will be discussed in the months following that. I hope you can all find time in your busy Invincible-dominated reading schedules to join me in June! -----signature----- legatus imperatoris britanniæ superior REMEMBER: BLACK FLEET CRISIS: TYRANT'S TEST DISCUSSION STARTS IN AUGUST! Han's a girl, so I got a Golden Ewok.
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Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 5/1 5:30am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: I, Jedi!
	Readers familiar with Michael's books will find little difference to his other works, and his tendency to explain his character actions can get a little lecture annoying. But it's style of voice is free and easy, after the stiffer flow of the Rogue books. A nicely written and entertaining read, all up. From the days when we had nicely written and entertaining reads more often! -----signature----- My utilisation of complex locution to ask what's more pathetic, fans who worship their movie actors, or the actors who couldn't give a damn, is more a reflection of my own superincumbent mental actuity than any circumscribed lexicon. Don't you agree?
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The_Loyal_Imperial Title: YAHTZEE Host Registered: Nov '07	Date Posted: 5/1 5:32am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: I, Jedi! - Date Edited: 5/1 5:34am (2 edits total) Edited By: The_Loyal_Imperial
	One of my favorite Star Wars novels I've ever read, if only because of the choice to write it entirely from a first-person point of view. Getting inside the main character's head is something done in this book that's unfortunately neglected in some others. It's a well-put together story, and in ways I think it outperforms the JAT in describing some events. Definitely one of the better EU novels out there. As for the retcons, I'd leave that up to bad memories and data corruption, or erasure of information by the Empire, as there aren't many other plausible explanations. -----signature----- Dark Lord of the Ghost Ship Executor: Darth Vader Attack of the Clones was released May 16, 2002. Star Wars: Republic covered the Clone Wars starting Jan 22, 2003. What's the next big Star Wars project? Star Wars: The Clone Wars. Fall 2008.
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SuperWatto Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 5/1 6:04am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: I, Jedi!
	To me, this is the definitive account of How It Is To Be A Jedi. That's why the title of the book is very fitting. -----signature----- Trandoshan flatcakes!
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DarthNidLoc Registered: Mar '05	Date Posted: 5/1 6:27am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: I, Jedi!
	It gives us a condensed but superior look at the events of the Jedi Academy trilogy. The first person perspective was something that was new,different, and refeshing. And it fulfilled the authors purpose in writing it, it took Corran from a cool fighter pilot to a jedi in a believable manner. -----signature----- Your focus determines your reality.
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Master_Keralys Title: Lit and EUC Mod On Vacation Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 5/1 7:22am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: I, Jedi!
	Huzzah! I, Jedi was an interesting piece of fiction. Of necessity considerable different than anything before it in the EU, it can really only be compared to Shatterpoint of books that followed it: a deep, close look a Jedi and the struggle of being a Jedi in difficult circumstances. The two have a lot of interesting parallels, which make for interesting contrasts and comparisons - because Mace Windu and Corran Horn are very different kinds of Jedi. One of these unique similarities is the first-person point of view. I, Jedi had it through and through, and Shatterpoint used it indirectly both with the journals and with an incredibly tight first-person POV. The effect is the same in both cases: we can't see the narrator objectively, and this leaves us to wonder if there's self-deception on the point of the lead character. In some rather fun moments, both realize at different points in their journey and in different ways just how readily self-deceived they can be. Both realize how the exigencies of a situation can readily lead to decisions that are unwise or even wrong. In both cases, I think it was their great strength that they gave us such a closely focused view. This led to a number of interesting choices for Stackpole in I, Jedi, because he had to deal with being unable to show the opposition point of view. We as readers had to know sufficient information about the enemies' movements to be able to keep up with Corran and the decisions he was making, but not too much or risk losing dramatic tension. It was a well-executed balance. One of the things I think is interesting is how much of an insight it gave us into Corran's loyalty complex. We know he was something of a playboy before marriage, and that he and Mirax were quite happy consummating their relationship well before marriage. But after marriage, we see that he's absolutely dedicated to the notion of remaining completely loyal to her. Though given the opportunity to sleep with an immensely attractive woman in a situation that would have only helped him accomplish his mission, he remained faithful to Mirax and refuses to go there. Among other things, this suggests some interesting societal and moral practices. Given that from what we've seen, guys like Han, Wedge, and Lando are much the same, this is suggestive indeed. The GFFA seems to have a rather unique moral outlook on this particular topic: fooling around before marriage doesn't seem to be terribly frowned upon, but doing so after marriage is a big no-no. I'll be back with more on the dark side. Good work Becca! - Keralys -----signature----- Galactic Forum Alliance Stand for freedom; stand for justice; stand for right!
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RK_Striker_JK_5 Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 5/1 9:11am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: I, Jedi!
	I liked how it fleshed out the Originals-my fan term for Luke's first class. You see more of Kam, Tionne, Streen and Kirana Ti than in... most other EU sources. Corran as the bad@$$ Jedi among the Invids shows how really deadly a Jedi can be, really. I did like that they mentioned that Luke's body got checked out by medical techs. One of the things that bothered me in the old JAT-one of the few things, mind you. I felt Corran and Brakiss' insertion was handled well, too. -----signature----- E-married to the wonderful DarthIshtar. Now also her Padawan. Member of the Y.J.K. Revolution Staring into the Darkness http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/27537567/p1/?23
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beccatoria Title: 181st Imperial Discussion Group host Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 5/1 9:43am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: I, Jedi! - Date Edited: 5/1 9:48am (1 edits total) Edited By: beccatoria
	Awesome! Great to see this kicking off already. Two things we seem to be picking up on - the first-person perspective and the interplay with JAT. I don't currently have a lot to say regarding the way Stackpole handled the JAT sections, except to say that I, too, enjoyed them immensely and probably more than the original rendition by Anderson. As Striker notes, the insertion of characters was handled well - I had wondered if I was going to find it clunky on my re-read but it never occured to me that Corran hadn't been there all along. And I also appreciated the inclusion of more practical and real details (Corranlike detail? ) such as the medtechs and getting rid of the Evil Temple with something as unmystical as very large explosives. I have to agree with LI that this was also a real rip-roaring adventure story with so many sections and plot points and separate fights my head was spinning by the end. Partly that's down to the longer-than-usual page-count, but I found myself far more engaged on re-reading than I thought I would be which is the sign of a well-told adventure. The almost dual-plot aspect, where Stackpole literally splits the novel between Jedi Corran and Cop Corran was brave and worked well. I almost felt I'd read an entire novel when we got to Corran leaving Yavin, and then I had another novel left to go. Moving on to perspective issues, it seems most people who've posted so far enjoyed the chance it provided to really get inside Corran's head. I have to agree. My Excellencese is a little rusty, but I think you're pointing to the rather stiff and technical nature of some of the prose which I did pick up on and threw me a little initially, as I did find it a little strange to have Corran so starkly self-analytical. However, to pick up on Keralys's point about the way the tight POV helped with the characterisation and caused us to question the objectivity of the character himself (and awesome call to compare it to Shatterpoint, dude! That totally hadn't occured to me!) I got to grips with it pretty quickly. As soon as Corran started realising previous statements he'd made as "fact" were actually wrong, and he started changing his mind, I got a sly grin and though ha! Now this is interesting! What else is he letting his ego get in the way of? And I started finding the technical descriptions and self-introspection very fitting to the character. He is a technical guy, and I think that examining his own motivations and finding them sound is definitely a boost to his own ego - something he admits readily that he has. And something Stackpole managed to handle deftly, I think - that combination of being arrogant and egotistical but aware enough of that fact not to be obnoxious about it. Segueing to Ker's point about his playboy days and his current marriage, I found it really entertaining that the first thing he noticed about nearly every female character was her physical attractiveness! I thought that was an amusing touch. Like you said, even when he is forced to admit he is attracted to other women, he remains loyal to Mirax, even when he could justify it. But I find it both funny and quite a subtle touch that even if he's thinking about women he genuinely isn't attracted to (I don't think!) like Tionne, he still finds himself internally justifying that he's holding back from her because he fears the vulnerability of a friendship not because he's worried about getting too close to another woman, who is, of course, very beautiful, but you know, reader, that's not what it's about at all. Honest. Like I said, in the Tionne situation, I actually believe him, I just think it's sweet and sort of...dorky that that's the first place his mind goes. As he admits to himself later, he likes the ego-boost. He'd never be unfaithful to Mirax, but I do think he likes it when other women like him and I think his thought patterns sometimes actively track along that vector. Anyway, I thought that was a good example of the first-person perspective being used to subtly paint in aspects of his character throughout the book without having to explicitly state them. Of course, I'm probably the only person who sees that! Master_Keralys posted: The GFFA seems to have a rather unique moral outlook on this particular topic: fooling around before marriage doesn't seem to be terribly frowned upon, but doing so after marriage is a big no-no. I agree that this book helped clarify this a lot and it does seem to be the status quo, but I'm not sure it's particularly unique? Certainly in the last few decades its been becoming more and more acceptable to fool around before you're married, but once you are married, it's a much bigger deal? (Note: I'm working from the assumption that while Corran was a playboy, he was seeing one girl at a time, he just got through them at a fair clip!) I think that the main difference is probably that we don't see the rates of divorce or infidelity in the GFFA because all the married couples are fan-favourites and heroes, and that's unheroic. Infidelity is pretty much never fun (unless it's like, the two characters who are clearly supposed to be the Star-crossed Lovers leaving secondary love-interests to be with each other, in which case the infidelity is secondary to the "happy ending"/"watching those irritating secondary love-interests get their payback for getting in the way of TRUE LUB!"). And it's also never tragically epically Romantic (thematically: with the capital "R"). So ironically we can have people become youngling-slaughtering anti-heroic monsters because that checks the Romantic Tragedy box, but we can't have a guy cheating on his wife because that's just...depressing? After all, Corran's ultimate rejection - the moment where he really crystalised the murky nature of dark side in pirate society - was when he realised that just because he could justify the action didn't mean he'd be doing it for the right reasons, and also didn't make it right. It was the easy route. I think there's a really powerful undercurrent of Heroes Get the Girl and Heroes Treat the Girl Well that runs through modern fiction, now that stories frequently continue after the riding-off-into-the-sunset moment. Our society may be riddled with it, but idealistically I think we still consider infidelity to be a big deal? Either way this is probably one of the only SW books to actually deal with the issue head on. Either way, I look forward to your thoughts on the dark side! Will you be comparing more with Shatterpoint? Personally I loved the way it managed to combine both aspects of the dark side, and Corran's points that he'd already had experience turning away from it, like when he had to let Bossk go. But I'm really interested to hear what others thought? -----signature----- legatus imperatoris britanniæ superior REMEMBER: BLACK FLEET CRISIS: TYRANT'S TEST DISCUSSION STARTS IN AUGUST! Han's a girl, so I got a Golden Ewok.
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patchworkz7 Registered: Mar '04	Date Posted: 5/1 9:48am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: I, Jedi!
	Excellence posted: Readers familiar with Michael's books will find little difference to his other works, and his tendency to explain his character actions can get a little lecture annoying. But it's style of voice is free and easy, after the stiffer flow of the Rogue books. A nicely written and entertaining read, all up. From the days when we had nicely written and entertaining reads more often! Agreed. It's a fairly standard Stackpole book, although I finally felt that Corran Horn felt a lot more like a character and less like a cipher or plot point as he did in the early X-Wing books. -----signature----- Original Fiction & essays "Does God Limp?" in HOUSE UNAUTHORIZED http://www.smartpopbooks.com/allbooks/2007.html#house "All Her Suicides" appears in: Vestal Review #31 Winter Issue On Sale Now
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Corusca_One Registered: Oct '05	Date Posted: 5/1 9:57am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: I, Jedi!
	SuperWatto posted: To me, this is the definitive account of How It Is To Be A Jedi. That's why the title of the book is very fitting. QFT. This was one of my first true favourite Star Wars books. I had been following them for a while in a somewhat random order when I could get them and eventually I got this, rather large, volume out of my library. If I remember correctly I had only read The Krytos Trap by this point, and maybe some of Allston's X-Wing offerings, so while I knew who Corran Horn was my knowledge was patchy and incomplete. I had also managed to miss out on the JAT, despite loving TTT. Both of which were popular and well stocked while I was reading these books. Despite all this I was drawn into this story far quicker than normal, and quite enthralled. As SuperWatto says, this is perhaps the definitive account of How it is to be a Jedi. Corran Horn in this book is not a perfect man, nor a perfect Jedi. The first person perspecitive works well because he has just enough arrogance and cockiness to think at times that he knows better than others. This makes it all the more apparent when he realises he dosn't know as much as he thinks he does. In this way I found it made the story more interesting. Made Corran more fallible, more human; and in doing so it made the journey's end all the more satisfying seeing how far he had come. I found the confrontation with Exar Kun to be another stand out moment. Its the kind of scene I can easily play through in my head, its how i'd like to see more confrontations resolved. Corran shows the same qualities that characters like Zayne and Obi Wan Kenobi do so often, a Jedi isn't always about flashy tricks, but detirmination. This is further expanded on during the training and rivalry between himself and Gantoris. Anyway its been a while since I have properly read it but I just had to give some thoughts, an underrated gem of the Bantem era. Also perhaps, precisely what we need for the future of the EU... An inward focus on what we already have rather than an outward spanning focus on things we probably don't need yet. -----signature----- A D'Kana. What would Gryph do? "I don't want to hear any Pessimistic Panakas and their prophecies of continuity gloom and doom..." -Barriss_Coffee Zayne Carrick is Zayne Carrick!
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patchworkz7 Registered: Mar '04	Date Posted: 5/1 10:37am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: I, Jedi!
	Going to address Beccatoria's questions this time round: 1) I enjoyed the first person POV, and I think it's a POV we don't see enough of in SW. I think it also broke Stakepole out of his habit of telling some things to get the plot movie and forced him to engage a bit more with Corran than he had in previous books. I've read loads of 1st POV books so it didn't really register that there was a big difference or that this was a major difference in the way SW books were written. This was actually, along with TTT, one of the only EU books I read before jumping back into the EU with the RC books back in 2004. I read it when a buddy suggested it because he really thought it was a cut above the post-TTT books that had come out, and while I didn't jump back into the EU again after it, I did think it was extremely well done. 2) I think most people know that canon issues aren't something I'm really disturbed by, and since this was PT to my knowledge, and it's fiction, I just give it a pass on that. Obviously we can't blame Stackpole for changes made to the universe on GL's level. 3)I think things like Booster's thoughts on love are valid no matter which EU we're looking at, modern or post-PT, because I think that regular people are going to wonder about Jedi and since they've always been shown as beings who have to be incredibly in control of their emotions, I still think it's a valid point. Having reread the book not long ago, I think it still holds up, and probably holds up better than most. 4) I think the dark side presentations were interesting because of the split. I think limiting the dark side to one thing or the other does the universe and the Force a disservice, and I think that showing the two sides of the dark side also highlights the two sides of the Force as something that is both of, and beyond, the physical world. I'm really looking forward to doing BFC, because it's one of my faves of the Bantam era despite some problems with the climax of the story. Thanks again for doing this, Beccatoria! -----signature----- Original Fiction & essays "Does God Limp?" in HOUSE UNAUTHORIZED http://www.smartpopbooks.com/allbooks/2007.html#house "All Her Suicides" appears in: Vestal Review #31 Winter Issue On Sale Now
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MistrX Registered: Jun '06	Date Posted: 5/1 11:03am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: I, Jedi!
	One of the first things I noticed when I reread this book was the sense of nostalgia I got for that period. Wedge's stint with the reconstruction of Coruscant (something I'd all but forgotten about until Luke mentioned it in NJO), Luke the bachelor on Coruscant, the beginning of the Academy and its inaugural class with Tionne, Kam, Streen, Gantoris and the rest of them. Ooryl, who I hadn't even realized I'd missed, Whistler, young Kyp, Wedge and Iella still a question, Luke and Mara no more than hints, foreshadowing of Brakiss' later fall, and more. It was a nice look back on the Bantam days, regardless of the quality of many of Bantam's actual stories. I'm also surprised at how much of this book I'd completely forgotten. In the ten years since I've read it, I'd completely spaced the entire stretch he spent with the pirates, really from leaving the Academy to his phantom Jedi act, so that part was almost like reading a new book for me. There were some elements to the book I could appreciate more this time around now that my knowledge of the EU a bit more expanded than before. I hadn't read the Rogue Squadron comics before so this time I was able to pick up on a number of references from those, not least of which was the fact that our heroes had run into Tavira before. Plus the introduction of Elegos! Another detail that I had forgotten from my first read. Hopefully, I'll find some time in the future to read through the X-Wing books again for that very reason. The first person POV gives a fascinating look at the Star Wars universe and the people and things in it. Corran's thoughts also give an alternative view to what we've seen before which I think enriches the overall story. One thing that I really liked viewing was the inside look at Jedi training, particularly the night in the pool where Corran seems to become more open to the Force than he ever has before. It's interesting and enjoyable for me to see. Did anyone notice that Corran seems to be opening his hands all the time? Is that Stackpole's version of the Zahn Lip Twitch? Like I said, it's been a while since I read the X-Wing novels and I don't remember it happening all that often in Dark Tide, but it really seemed to stand out to me in this book. -----signature----- "The only thing more insane than falsehood is truth." We are well and truly forked.
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RK_Striker_JK_5 Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 5/1 11:13am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: I, Jedi!
	Good points, MisterX. It's nice to see the good old times. And to see those old characters. You know, I really think an 'I, ___' series would've been great. Not just COrran, but other characters. Non Jedi, even. I'd buy 'I, Ooryl' in a heartbeat. -----signature----- E-married to the wonderful DarthIshtar. Now also her Padawan. Member of the Y.J.K. Revolution Staring into the Darkness http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/27537567/p1/?23
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Havac Title: Lit Mod of War Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 5/1 11:19am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: I, Jedi!
	SuperWatto posted: To me, this is the definitive account of How It Is To Be A Jedi. That's why the title of the book is very fitting. I've read from Stackpole that this was originally pitched simply as a book about being a Jedi, and he actually wanted to use Luke. Publishing considerations changed it to Corran. But, yeah, I think is one of very few books to tackle the issue of being a Jedi head-on, in-depth. I was surprised when I read back through the JAT, and I found that KJA included almost no training scenes at all. A book about the Jedi Academy being founded, and it's just kind of, "And they learned." Whereas we have a ton of material in here about the training, about the exercises, about what it feels like to learn and use the Force, about what goes on in a guy's head. The stuff where Corran is trying different things to sense the stone and sense Tionne and her arm and trying to get a mental formulation of how you use the Force to do things -- that's what makes it so brilliant. And then Corran takes it and goes out into the real world, and that's when the book really takes off for me. I loved Detective Jedi Corran. It was awesome to see a Jedi becoming this mythical figure of justice, taking down pirate gangs. I was kind of disappointed, actually, that we didn't see the big showdown that he was planning. That felt kind of anticlimactic. It was superb to see him take the Jedi way and try to live it. To realize that the dark side was a constant struggle, and he had to examine his every motivation and every action, and he had to live and breathe the Jedi way and be committed to it every moment of his existence. It was just such a profound thing to see that, and realize that to be a Jedi isn't just a set of powers -- it requires an incredible person to take it up, to live it. -----signature----- "If Havac was a pinata, when you beat him all that would come out is win." - Uli Recipient of Thrawn McEwok's Sexually Ambiguous Tusken Raider™ and a Special Golden Ewok™ "Reality doesn't care if you believe it." - Boba Fett
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MistrX Registered: Jun '06	Date Posted: 5/1 11:27am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: I, Jedi! - Date Edited: 5/1 11:31am (1 edits total) Edited By: MistrX
	beccatoria posted: - What did you make of the continuity issues with the wider EU? Do any of you have retcons to explain why the Clone Wars and Neeja's death in this novel take place 20 years earlier than in canon? I'm not sure if I really have any solid retcons, but I did find myself attempting to justify how things might have occurred given what we know now. Faulty memory and records and whatnot. beccatoria posted: Personally I loved the way it managed to combine both aspects of the dark side, and Corran's points that he'd already had experience turning away from it, like when he had to let Bossk go. But I'm really interested to hear what others thought? Yeah, that was a good bit. I liked seeing the various scenes where he talked about and contemplated the dark side and its varying aspects. Whether it was the conversation with Luke where he'd felt that he'd already faced darkness, with Mara where they felt that Luke's thoughts on the dark side left out its simplicity, or toward the end where he really did face the dark side and seemed to realized that there were some elements to it that even he hadn't taken into account. It was another moment where he was self-aware of his own ego and how it could cause him harm even when it was always at the back of his mind. -----signature----- "The only thing more insane than falsehood is truth." We are well and truly forked.
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 5/1 11:37am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: I, Jedi!
	Ah IJ, so much to contemplate...Still, in recognition of our host's opening: What did you think of the decision to write it with a first-person point of view? Did it help the characterisation or hinder it? Did it take a while to get used to or did it flow well from the start? * I never found this a problem, if anything it made the story distinct. - What did you make of the continuity issues with the wider EU? Do any of you have retcons to explain why the Clone Wars and Neeja's death in this novel take place 20 years earlier than in canon? * I'm afraid this is one of those areas I really have little time for, my own solution is to simply change the timing but, for those who wish to discuss the canonity, feel free - just don't blow yourselves up! - Did anything ring differently to you in the context of the modern EU? (For instance Booster wondering if a Jedi was still capable of love in light of the no-attachments rule, or Corran experiencing Neeja's last few moments before he ghosted, perhaps adding to the NJO's understanding of this technique?) * I'll have to pass on this one, as my copy of IJ is entombed behind a wall of boxes! - What did you make of the way the dark side was presented? The split between the metaphysical and mysterious with Exar Kun and the real and brutal with Corran posing as Jenos among the Invids? * I liked how Stackpole did it all, he managed to convey a very important point that the dark side isn't simply everyday evil, that it isn't on the same level as criminal violence. He laid out exactly how and why Corran thinks himself immune to the dark side and then carefuly deconstructs that. By the end Corran understands what Luke was trying to tell him about the dark side but could not convey the sheer horror of it. There's always an indefinable gap between description and reality. The point is simply: Just because you have handled X, doesn't mean you're automatically fit to handle Y and where the dark side is concerned, nothing will ever make you ready to. * At the same time I found Corran's easy acceptance of the idea that Kun has been around for 4000 years a bit hard to credit, given his very rational outlook - for the idea is hard to buy. Yes, there's Force Ghosts but for a spirit to hang around for that kind of span? The other element that seemed a bit forced was all the archaelogical records that seemed to turn up. Although you could say these probably were around and were not paid much attention to in a galaxy with hundreds of thousands of planets. JB -----signature----- Other guy: Could I have your autograph? Darth Vader: No, **** off or I'll kill you with a tray! Give me penne all'arrabiata or you shall die! And you and everyone in this canteen! Death by tray it shall be!
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