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Topic:
'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
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Jek_Windu
Registered:
Jan '03
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Date Posted:
6/2 10:54am
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
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That's true, I forgot about those. So I guess there's even more of an overall arc that DR ignored in favor of one moment.
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Magnuskn
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
6/2 10:57am
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
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Just said this in another therad, but it is absolutely no fault of John and Jan how Del Rey decides to include Legacy in their books. Legacy still is 100 years down the line from the actual novels and DR had absolutely no need to make Jag the Ubermoff yet. That they decided to do so is *their* decision, so any animosity towars Legacy is actually going to the wrong side.
I distinctly hope that DR will never, *ever* get the rights to write a book in the Legacy era, though.
Magnus
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Robimus
Registered:
Jul '07
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Date Posted:
6/2 11:05am
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
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Jan_Duursema posted:
Legacy and Vergere a retcon? Consider this--in Legacy, the only information we get about Vergere is from Darth Krayt's point of view--a Sith Lord's point of view. Krayt has an agenda. He is telling his story to Cade Skywalker in order to seduce him to the dark side. Would you consider a tale told by a dark lord of the Sith to be the absolute truth?
Thanks for the reply, thats certainly how I veiw it in my personal canon. I'm just dissapointed that Vergere appeared in that vain at all. It's far easier to write off Lumiya making up lies to serve her purpose than it is to write off seeing Vergere actaully talk of Bane's teachings 'n such.  It has opened the door to a great many questions.
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sabarte
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
6/2 11:17am
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
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Well, Legacy was 100 years down the line at the end of the NJO. Now it's around 88 from MilFalc until Kol dies.
Of course, in 60 BBY the galaxy was a completely different place than it is in 40 ABY.
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Jek_Windu
Registered:
Jan '03
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Date Posted:
6/2 12:17pm
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
- Date Edited:
6/2 12:49pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Jek_Windu
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Yeah, I totally agree with that statement. To reiterate what several others have tried to point out:
Time Between The Phantom Menace and Invincible: 72 years
Time Between Invincible and Legacy #2: 97 years
That's an extra 25 years- an entire generation in Star Wars. No way that's too close.
EDIT: Thanks again, Sabarte. Should I start PMing you my posts to check for error? 
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Tryanids: You don't have enough bullets! Imperial Guard: YES WE DO! R.I.P. Trini
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sabarte
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
6/2 12:29pm
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
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Actually Invincible to Legacy #1 is 90. Invincible to Legacy #2 is around 97.
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dizfactor
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
6/2 3:12pm
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
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It's worth mentioning that 97 years is the same length of time as the gap between Qui-Gon taking Obi-Wan as his apprentice and the events of the upcoming Millenium Falcon novel. If you had only read the EU in chronological order up to and including the Jedi Apprentice books, and then skipped ahead to MF, I really, really doubt you'd be able to anticipate all the twists and turns and stories and characters that get us from Point A to Point B over 97 years.
Even in roughly half that time, the time from the beginning of the TOTJ comics to the KOTOR II game is absolutely packed with major events and characters. Even if the status quo of 3900 BBY looked very similar to 4000 BBY, there's been a lot of water under the bridge.
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Lord_Riven
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
6/3 1:48am
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
- Date Edited:
6/3 1:49am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Lord_Riven
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Jan_Duursema posted:
Legacy and Vergere a retcon? Consider this--in Legacy, the only information we get about Vergere is from Darth Krayt's point of view--a Sith Lord's point of view. Krayt has an agenda. He is telling his story to Cade Skywalker in order to seduce him to the dark side. Would you consider a tale told by a dark lord of the Sith to be the absolute truth?
Nope.
But my point was about - if they had a coherent vision about the timeline from the time Traitor was written, we wouldn't have had Stover's Vergere suddenly metamorph into Sith Vergere.
Personally, I would prefer if it were all revealed that Lumiya lied, and Krayt's lying and that Vergere was just an unorthodox Jedi...but who's going to reveal it??
Really had nothing to do with Legacy comics at all. It was rather a response to Jek's comment which was a response to my comment about a coherent background laying out major events and planned arcs
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Legacy AU fic: Family Ties. Follow the link in the next line. http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3751906/1/Star_Wars_Legacy_Family_Ties Casiah - Cade Skywalker x Marasiah Fel 'shipper (#1) Canderous >>> Boba Fett
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Valhoun
Registered:
Jun '08
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Date Posted:
6/3 9:24am
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
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DHC comes up with brilliant ideas (probably the best among entities creating EU material) but I think a lot of the division between fans occurs because the comics aren't being created in concert with the novels and, hence, a short timeframe between the two becomes a burden rather than a potential strength. As has been said a number of times in this thread, the Legacy crew takes great pains to keep their hands off of topics and characters currently being used in LotF. That's very respectful of the Legacy crew but it restricts what they are trying to create just as much as their detractors say that they are restricting the novels. There are a large number of EU characters that could very well still be alive (or are declared all but dead with no explanation of their fates... such as Ben. Force-users outlive their normal species and it is not unknown for force-users to make a mockery of their species normal lifespans. If any of these characters are still around they should be used by the Legacy crew wherever it is logical for them to be a part of the plot. It's a galaxy spanning conflict. It would be silly if a major character used by Del-Ray was still alive but not a part of the fight to rid the galaxy of evil. A close working relationship would add detail and consistency to both the novels and the comics. Under ideal circumstances, the timelines would blend together perfectly and constantly reference each other. I don't see this happening and it's quite unfortunate because there are so many talented people working in the EU right now.
As for the argument that the timeline makes the sacrifice of past characters meaningless... well, that's just silly. It's good to use an existential viewpoint when examining the GFFA. The value in fighting for one's beliefs is in the fighting... not the ultimate victory or defeat. Luke and Han choose to fight against the Empire. The end result of their actions doesn't matter to them when the decisions are being made and, knowing those characters, they would still fight against the Empire even if they knew the cause was lost. Sisyphus may always find his rock roll back down the hill, but he still commits himself to pushing it right back up. If there is no lasting meaning to the actions of the major characters, they nevertheless must choose what side they will fight on. It's that choice which is most valuable.
However, I will concede that the relatively short time between does limit both the comic and the novels. Again, force-users have extremely long lifespans. It is not inconceivable that Luke and Ben would still be alive and kicking. Since they aren't we can assume that they die violently. The average human lives 120 years. Jedi humans of immense power would easily pass such a mark. That's just one example. Now, again, if the good people at Dark Horse and the good people at Del-Ray would cooperate extensively this issue (and similar issues) wouldn't be... well... such an issue.
But Cade does look like he just stepped out of an early 90s Marvel Comic.
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sabarte
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
6/3 9:49am
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
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Valhoun posted:
DHC comes up with brilliant ideas (probably the best among entities creating EU material) but I think a lot of the division between fans occurs because the comics aren't being created in concert with the novels and, hence, a short timeframe between the two becomes a burden rather than a potential strength. As has been said a number of times in this thread, the Legacy crew takes great pains to keep their hands off of topics and characters currently being used in LotF. That's very respectful of the Legacy crew but it restricts what they are trying to create just as much as their detractors say that they are restricting the novels. There are a large number of EU characters that could very well still be alive (or are declared all but dead with no explanation of their fates... such as Ben. Force-users outlive their normal species and it is not unknown for force-users to make a mockery of their species normal lifespans. If any of these characters are still around they should be used by the Legacy crew wherever it is logical for them to be a part of the plot. It's a galaxy spanning conflict. It would be silly if a major character used by Del-Ray was still alive but not a part of the fight to rid the galaxy of evil. A close working relationship would add detail and consistency to both the novels and the comics.
I'm not sure Dark Horse actually has much interest in using Del Rey characters, or vice versa.
Valhoun posted:
As for the argument that the timeline makes the sacrifice of past characters meaningless... well, that's just silly. It's good to use an existential viewpoint when examining the GFFA. The value in fighting for one's beliefs is in the fighting... not the ultimate victory or defeat. Luke and Han choose to fight against the Empire. The end result of their actions doesn't matter to them when the decisions are being made and, knowing those characters, they would still fight against the Empire even if they knew the cause was lost. Sisyphus may always find his rock roll back down the hill, but he still commits himself to pushing it right back up. If there is no lasting meaning to the actions of the major characters, they nevertheless must choose what side they will fight on. It's that choice which is most valuable.
I disagree. Star Wars is a story. If all the heroes had died in, say, the battle of Hoth, it would not be a good story. I think this is something that the people running the franchise don't quite grok - a satisfactory ending and a satisfactory legacy is necessary for these characters. If their stories are going to be drawn out for decades and decades, they should have accomplished something lasting in those decades, besides raising evil and/or angsty kids, propping up a failing government, and creating a wholly dysfunctional Jedi Order.
Valhoun posted:
However, I will concede that the relatively short time between does limit both the comic and the novels. Again, force-users have extremely long lifespans. It is not inconceivable that Luke and Ben would still be alive and kicking. Since they aren't we can assume that they die violently. The average human lives 120 years. Jedi humans of immense power would easily pass such a mark. That's just one example. Now, again, if the good people at Dark Horse and the good people at Del-Ray would cooperate extensively this issue (and similar issues) wouldn't be... well... such an issue.
Except that humans in Star Wars don't really have that lifespan. They're stepping back on earlier assertions and retconning stuff like the Bakurans.
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Trip
Registered:
Dec '03
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Date Posted:
6/3 9:56am
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
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dizfactor posted:
Unfortunately, because they chose to back DR on that issue, it's pretty much impossible now to say that Lumiya was just lying about Vergere, because Krayt really has no conceivable reason to back Lumiya's lie about things that were really only relevant a century ago anyway.
Krayt's got no reason to lie-- but it's entirely possible for him to be misinformed. We know Lumiya had sporadic contact with the One Sith; an easy out is just to say that he got her take on Vergere and didn't see any reason to doubt her. Sure, he remember Vergere being decidedly un-Vergere-ish, but it's not like his chat with her was a defining moment in his life; it's not unreasonable to assume he's misremembering when he recounts the event to Cade.
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Vrook_Lamar
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
6/3 10:33am
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
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Valhoun posted:
But Cade does look like he just stepped out of an early 90s Marvel Comic.
An early 90s comic that was published after Marvel Star Wars finished in 1986 or a 90s Marvel Comic that wasn't anything to do with Star Wars? The later would make more sense but had not occured to me when I pressed the reply button.
Cade doesn't quite have enough belt pouches to be a 90s Marvel character. But apparently his coat is based off the one Luke wears in Dark Empire which is definately an early 90s comic.
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Valhoun
Registered:
Jun '08
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Date Posted:
6/3 10:39am
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
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sabarte posted:
I disagree. Star Wars is a story. If all the heroes had died in, say, the battle of Hoth, it would not be a good story. I think this is something that the people running the franchise don't quite grok - a satisfactory ending and a satisfactory legacy is necessary for these characters. If their stories are going to be drawn out for decades and decades, they should have accomplished something lasting in those decades, besides raising evil and/or angsty kids, propping up a failing government, and creating a wholly dysfunctional Jedi Order.
On an individual level, it is our choices that matter. There's an absurdity to life that makes the end result of all of our actions meaningless when viewed with a long enough lens. Therefore, what we have to define ourselves are the choices we make while we exist. Star Wars, in all of its forms, shows this very well. Vader makes a choice, Luke makes a choice. Certain outcomes of those choices may very well make for a better story but no outcome can diminish the value of the choices themselves. I'll agree with the statement: If X would have happened, then the story may have been better. But not the statement: If X happens, the struggles of characters A, B, and C are meaningless.
[quote]Except that humans in Star Wars don't really have that lifespan. They're stepping back on earlier assertions and retconning stuff like the Bakurans. [/quote]
In the Joiner King 110 years is specified. In LotF about 110-120 is specified. Ironically, those long lifespans aren't science fiction... they are factual. To state that a technologically advanced civilization of humans would only live to be 80 or 90 would be science fiction.
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Whizkid
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
7/2 11:53am
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
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Lord_Hydronium posted:
It's a big galaxy, and Luke can only be in so many places at once. Korriban is a settled world, so it's not like you can just look to see if there are any people there and kill them.
As for the second one, that's nonsense. It's Luke's fault if institutions he supported run into trouble after he dies? That's absurd. It's like saying that the American Civil War is a failure of Ben Franklin's.
You can certainly blame the founding fathers as a whole for the circumstances that lead to the Civil War.
Just like you can blame the major powers of WWI for leaving the world in such a mess and giving way to the terrible atrocities of the 20th century (in response to John's point about WWII invalidating the sacrifices of WWI, which imo it does to a great extent).
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jfostrander01
Title: Writer:
-Legacy
-Republic
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
7/2 2:22pm
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
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Every era, in our world or SW's, is by its nature imperfect, being created by imperfect beings. What we do and fail to do in our time is not the fault of our forefathers, it is the result of our own choice. In the SW galaxy, there was still bitter resentment at the Yuuzhan Vong by many species and that was exploited by Krayt and his Sith. Institutions can be created and traditions started but that means something only if those who come after support that. The jedi cannot force people to behave correctly.
Luke's achievements, opposing the Emperor, bringing about his downfall, re-creating an Order that had been for all extents and purposes destroyed, are massive and incontrovertible. Kol Skywalker stood for the good and the right and died. He was a hero. what others do does not and cannot change that.
IMO.
-- John
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writer on SW Legacy
I'm making this up as a go.
Jan Duursema's badassery knows no bounds.
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