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Topic:
'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
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KnightDawg
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
5/6 2:42pm
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
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Lord_Hydronium posted:
Heck, I'd think that's a point in his favor, that they waited until he was gone before making a move.
I think this says more about Ben Skywalker than Luke, cause it also seems they waited for him to pass as well.
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Rouge77
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/6 2:49pm
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
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Lord_Hydronium posted:
It's not a failing of Luke's that he can't see what amounts to a drop in the bucket, and it's certainly not a failing of Luke's that they only become visible and rise to power after he's dead. Heck, I'd think that's a point in his favor, that they waited until he was gone before making a move.
Except that the Sith had their headquarters on a planet which Luke knew was dangerous and which Luke tried to hid from the galaxy by trying to erase it's co-ordinates from databases. He didn't keep actual watch on Korriban and by making it impossible for others, he helped the Sith.
Frankly, Luke has been made guilty of many things. First, he wasn't able to find out about the One Sith and defeat them, instead they grew and prospered in secret when he was alive. And after his death they came out from hiding and destroyed what Luke had build. Luke's Jedi Order was too weak to and was de facto destroyed, most of it's members of 127 ABY have to be dead in 137 ABY. And the government that Luke had supported didn't trust the Jedi at the most important moment, and because of that, it fell. So, Luke failed to found institutions, which would have been strong enough to be able to stand on their own after he was gone.
Eternal optimists can claim whatever they want, but when one looks at things objectively based on what we have seen so far - and things may change with new revelations, and I hope that this is the case - Luke's entire legacy has been almost totally destroyed. At this point it looks that he failed in everything: His Jedi Order has been driven close to destruction, the government he supported consists of one fleet, and the only member of his family who we know is still alive is Cade, whose many defects don't need to be recalled here, I think.
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StateOfLoveAndTrust
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
5/6 2:57pm
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
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Rouge77 posted:
At this point it looks that he failed in everything: His Jedi Order has been driven close to destruction, the government he supported consists of one fleet, and the only member of his family who we know is still alive is Cade, whose many defects don't need to be recalled here, I think.
But besides all that, things are pretty good.
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Rouge77
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/6 2:58pm
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
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StateOfLoveAndTrust posted:
Rouge77 posted:
At this point it looks that he failed in everything: His Jedi Order has been driven close to destruction, the government he supported consists of one fleet, and the only member of his family who we know is still alive is Cade, whose many defects don't need to be recalled here, I think.
But besides all that, things are pretty good.
True...  
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Lord_Hydronium
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
5/6 3:29pm
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
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Rouge77 posted:
At this point it looks that he failed in everything: His Jedi Order has been driven close to destruction, the government he supported consists of one fleet, and the only member of his family who we know is still alive is Cade, whose many defects don't need to be recalled here, I think.
Right, and these are failures of Luke's because...
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Rouge77
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/6 3:36pm
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
- Date Edited:
5/6 3:37pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Rouge77
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Lord_Hydronium posted:
Rouge77 posted:
At this point it looks that he failed in everything: His Jedi Order has been driven close to destruction, the government he supported consists of one fleet, and the only member of his family who we know is still alive is Cade, whose many defects don't need to be recalled here, I think.
Right, and these are failures of Luke's because...
In the same post as which that came from, I explained it thus:
Rouge77 posted:
Except that the Sith had their headquarters on a planet which Luke knew was dangerous and which Luke tried to hid from the galaxy by trying to erase it's co-ordinates from databases. He didn't keep actual watch on Korriban and by making it impossible for others, he helped the Sith.
Rouge77 posted:
Luke's Jedi Order was too weak to and was de facto destroyed, most of it's members of 127 ABY have to be dead in 137 ABY. And the government that Luke had supported didn't trust the Jedi at the most important moment, and because of that, it fell. So, Luke failed to found institutions, which would have been strong enough to be able to stand on their own after he was gone.
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Lord_Hydronium
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
5/6 4:12pm
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
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It's a big galaxy, and Luke can only be in so many places at once. Korriban is a settled world, so it's not like you can just look to see if there are any people there and kill them.
As for the second one, that's nonsense. It's Luke's fault if institutions he supported run into trouble after he dies? That's absurd. It's like saying that the American Civil War is a failure of Ben Franklin's.
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DVader316
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
5/6 4:14pm
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
- Date Edited:
5/6 4:16pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
DVader316
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So far Ive only read the first Legacy TPB (I have Shards but have yet to get to it) and Ive really liked it thus far. Im normally a books only guy, too.
Anyway, in many ways this is the same old argument of how people hated the NJO and, more recently, LotF. Luke's sacrifices were for nothing, DelRey raped my childhood and all of that. Ultimately what this all comes down to, though, is that many people seem to be whining about possible continuity issues rather than the actual content of the series itself. While everyone is entitled to their opinions, pissing and moaning about something that isnt going to change is pretty futile, IMO. The Legacy era has been established and will continue to do so, as will more books post LotF, Im sure. If you dont like what youre reading then STOP READING. Unless, of course, youd rather waste your time complaining about it, which unfortunately seems to be the consensus here for the majority.
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Lord_Hydronium
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
5/6 4:17pm
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
- Date Edited:
5/6 4:18pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Lord_Hydronium
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That sort of post doesn't help either.
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Rouge77
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/6 4:20pm
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
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Lord_Hydronium posted:
It's like saying that the American Civil War is a failure of Ben Franklin's.
Luke's been far more prominent than Franklin. And the US Civil War was a test of those institutions that Franklin helped to create, and they survived that test. Those institutions that Luke established and helped to establish and which he supported haven't stood a similar test. Sadly.
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DVader316
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
5/6 4:21pm
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
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Probably not, but threads like these are just so absurd I had to post something.
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Lord_Hydronium
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
5/6 4:31pm
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
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Rouge77 posted:
Lord_Hydronium posted:
It's like saying that the American Civil War is a failure of Ben Franklin's.
Luke's been far more prominent than Franklin. And the US Civil War was a test of those institutions that Franklin helped to create, and they survived that test. Those institutions that Luke established and helped to establish and which he supported haven't stood a similar test. Sadly.
The Jedi and GA still look like they're around to me.
But that's beside the point. I don't see how you can assign the fall of the GA to Luke in the slightest. First of all, Luke can't do anything after he dies (other than pop up with a blue glow and give advice every so often). If you're saying it's a failure on his part to die...well, I'd best just give up this line of discussion right now because that would simply be beyond the limits of rational argument. So I'm assuming you don't believe that; in that case, I gather you believe that Luke had failings while he was alive that allowed the GA to collapse later. What are the indications of this? Presumably we agree that there are aspects of the GA that lead to its collapse, as opposed to it being entirely external factors - the Triumvirate meeting suggests as much - but where do you get that they have anything to do with Luke? You're pointing out a correlation, but you're not showing evidence for any kind of causal relationship.
DVader316 posted:
Probably not, but threads like these are just so absurd I had to post something.
You had to? Really?
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/6 4:43pm
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
- Date Edited:
5/6 4:47pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
BobaMatt
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Rouge77 posted:
I tend to think novels to be more important than comics, mainly because the novels have a far greater audience, and I don't think that products that are targeted to a minority of the fans should be able to dictate the future of SW. After all, most people who consider themselves to be SW fans never pick up the comics. I do, but that doesn't mean that I think the comics should be treated as equal to novels. Instead I think that the comics are best to be used to explore and fill gaps in the past, instead of creating the future. So, TotJ and KOTOR are good things in my books, Dark Empire and Legacy negative because of this.
That said, I would still consider negative the same things in the plots and background of Legacy even if itself would be a novel series instead of comic. In the same way my opinion of LotF wouldn't sink even lower if it would be comic series, nor my opinion of KOTOR would rise to even greater heights if it would be a novel series. The plot of LotF for example is bad, whatever the format.
See...this is why I brought up popularity in my first post in the thread, only to have it pooped on. Legacy has proven immensely popular with fans, and has caused a lot of them who've never read the comics finally pick them up, and so this feeling that the novels are more important than the comics and that the comics "ruin" things or "dictate" things for the novels is not a particularly widespread one. Legacy is getting tons of love because it's broken down that barrier between novels and comics and it would seem most fans are perfectly okay with that, and it has increasingly appeared to me that the complaints that Legacy is ruining the novels are largely rooted in a feeling that the comic books have no right to establish new continuity, that important things should only be explored in the novels and the comics should just be filler material subordinate to those novels.
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DVader316
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
5/6 4:51pm
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
- Date Edited:
5/6 4:52pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DVader316
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My little rant aside, I am one of those readers who normally never reads comic books but was intrigued enough by Legacy to pick up #0 the day it came out as well as the next three or four subsequent issues. Yes, its true that I fell of a bit and am very far behind (as mentioned in my previous post) but that has nothing to do with the quality of the series or my enjoyment of it (or lack thereof). Time issues and various RL obligations prevented me from getting to my local comic shop every month but I still look forward to the TPBs with alot of anticipation. I was very intrigued by Legacy's jump ahead in the GFFA from the very beginning and I couldnt have care less whether the series took place 100 yrs after the NJO or 1,000,000. I was intensely curious about the future of SW and the characters I know and love and the minutiae of timelines was irrelevant.
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jfostrander01
Title: Writer:
-Legacy
-Republic
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
5/6 7:46pm
Subject:
RE: 'Legacy': Too Soon or Too Late??
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Luke DIDN'T found the GA. That was the politicians. Nor did he found the New Republic, which failed. Luke Jedi Order still exists, if scattered. You'll learn more in upcoming issues. A large Sith concentration ANYWHERE might have been felt through the Force -- EXCEPT Korriban or Ziost, already permeated with the Dark Side. The most recent Sith Luke has had to deal with is his own nephew -- who came from Luke's own Order. If you were going to accuse him of failing (and I'm not) why not accuse him of failing to detect Jacen? Jacen was in the same room with him -- even after he killed Mara. Why wouldn't Luke consider Jacen might be a Sith? Because Jacen would have needed a Sith mentor and Luke knew of none. You don't see what you don't look for -- and there was no reason for Luke to look at Korriban, which had been investigated many times before and cleared of Sith artifacts, right? The real danger would have been in Luke's Order.
I understand that argument won't hold with some and that's fine; I'm not here to convert anyone. My point is -- when we were putting things together, there was a reason to use Korriban and, in context, it made sense. The choice as not made at random. Nor do I see any reason that it reflects badly on Luke unless one insists on his being perfect. He was a great hero and great Jedi but not perfect.
-- John
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