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Author	Topic: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1 (of 4)
Jmacq1 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 8/22/08 7:17am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1
	I dunno, in game terms it's not that Zayne is lucky...it's that Zayne is luckiest only after he's unlucky. In as least game-termy a way as I can put it: When he screws up the most, the Force gives him "a little boost" immediately afterwards.
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Rouge77 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 8/22/08 8:10am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1 - Date Edited: 8/22/08 8:10am (1 edits total) Edited By: Rouge77
	Zorrixor posted: Although, that said, if Haazen wanted Zayne dead... why did he want him brought back alive? Why not just get Lucien to kill him? Unless Haazen is still convinced Zayne is a destined to become a Sith Lord, what use has a Sith got in Zayne? I think that it's pretty likely Haazen didn't want the Padawans killed because he did hope that there would be one destined to be a Sith among them. He had to meet them himself to be sure, and that it has been the same with Zayne until now. And even when Haazen saw that Zayne is a practically a living saint, that might still not close out the possibility of making Zayne to either turn himself to the Dark Side or using him to make someone else to fall - or in the case of Lucien, to complete a fall - and become a Sith. A good Jedi can sometimes be the best tool that a Sith can have. -----signature----- Recipient of the Confederation Ewok with "Rebel Yub"® Action!! Kill Ben Skywalker, the new Jar-Jar!
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Zorrixor Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 8/22/08 8:19am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1 - Date Edited: 8/22/08 8:37am (2 edits total) Edited By: Zorrixor
	Jmacq1 posted: I dunno, in game terms it's not that Zayne is lucky...it's that Zayne is luckiest only after he's unlucky. In as least game-termy a way as I can put it: When he screws up the most, the Force gives him "a little boost" immediately afterwards. So, say if he were to become a Sith Lord, the Force would then help him become the greatest Jedi ever? Those crackpot theories that he's Revan could actually be right. I now really don't want to see Zayne become a Sith, but the idea that he's at his best when he's down and out is, well, worryingly reminiscent of Sion. Particuarly if Lucien does become Nihilus given the Lucien/Zayne relationship being bittersweet in a similar way to the Nihilus/Sion relationship (at least if you count the cut material). Fortunately I don't think Zayne is stocky enough to be Sion. I suppose perhaps if Haazen is THE Sith, and if he hails from Malachor V, then perhaps he shares Kreia's crazy "lets blow up the Force" attitude? He certainly isn't a Jedi. And he seems to both hate and yet possibly be a Sith at the same time. Without Zayne actually being the Exile, could Zayne be a progenitor to the Exile, filling a similar role in Haazen's plans as the Exile did in Kreia's? Rouge77 posted: Zorrixor posted: Although, that said, if Haazen wanted Zayne dead... why did he want him brought back alive? Why not just get Lucien to kill him? Unless Haazen is still convinced Zayne is a destined to become a Sith Lord, what use has a Sith got in Zayne? I think that it's pretty likely Haazen didn't want the Padawans killed because he did hope that there would be one destined to be a Sith among them. He had to meet them himself to be sure, and that it has been the same with Zayne until now. And even when Haazen saw that Zayne is a practically a living saint, that might still not close out the possibility of making Zayne to either turn himself to the Dark Side or using him to make someone else to fall - or in the case of Lucien, to complete a fall - and become a Sith. A good Jedi can sometimes be the best tool that a Sith can have. Possibly. Maybe I just want to give Haazen too much credit... as Lucien questioned from the start how a failure like Zayne could possibly be a threat. It makes Haazen seem somewhat dumb if he clung to a prophecy that is, now, debunked despite Lucien's initial protests. I suppose you may have a point in his intention just having been to break Lucien though. I imagine Krynda's death is going to be the thing that truly does that though. Unless Haazen just had a prophecy of his own that showed the return of the Sith being linked to Zayne coming to Coruscant: which has transpired to be true I suppose, Zayne was brought to Coruscant (albeit Xamar was pretending) and the poodoo has hit the fan as Haazen foresaw. Prophecy of the Five posted: "And in the time of tribulation to come, there will be five… One for the darkness… and one for the light. Another from the darkness stands in the light, while one from the light stands in the darkness. The last one stands apart from all. And between them… between them… all that has been built will fall." Going back to this... my thoughts: One for the darkness: Feln - Dark Jedi One from the light stands in the darkness: Xamar (good, but caught up in bad stuff) Another from the darkness stands in the light: Raana (dark, but in the end saw the light) One for the light: Q'Anilia (depends, could actually be better to swap her and Xamar) One stands apart from all: Lucien - Sith I remain unsure which way around to interpret the "light in the darkness" and "darkness in the light" lines. Was Raana a good person who was lost to darkness? Or was she a crazy person who just saw the light at the very end? I'm torn on Q'Anilia currently. I could see her as the "One for the light" and Xamar the "One for the light stands in the darkness" (i.e. Xamar was really a good person, but he was caught up in some bad stuff he was unable to escape from). Right now though I've mixed feelings since Q'Anilia seems, well, a little nuts. She might be the perfectly innocent one who Haazen has manipulated from the start, so I'm not sure. Admittedly, I could also see the following: One for the darkness: Lucien One from the light stands in the darkness: Feln Another from the darkness stands in the light: Raana One for the light: Xamar One stands apart from all: Q'Anilia Reason for that would be because Q'Anilia is the one who has just been dragged into the Covenant without really having wanted to be there, but manipulated by Haazen. My only problem with not having Lucien as the "one who stands apart from all" is that it means Feln isn't the "one for the darkness" and I don't really know where else Feln fits. It feels a bit forced to treat Feln as being a good person caught up in bad things, since Feln just seemed like a total psycho, period. I bet after all this the Five will turn out to be Haazen, Krynda, Lucien, Zayne and a new guy from the next issues flashbacks or something.
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Ord_Hulska Registered: Apr '05	Date Posted: 8/22/08 9:26am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1
	Unless I read wrong, Haazen tells us who the five are in this issue. He says, "Add our new guests, and the group is complete. A fitting audience, don't you agree, young Carrick?" At least that's the way I took it, the five are all in the room at that time. So the Prophecy of the Five is: Q'anilia Lucien Haazen Zayne Gryph This lets Gryph fall perfectly into the "one is apart from all" deal. Side note: I love this comic. KOTOR is the best thing going for Star Wars right now, IMO.
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Rouge77 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 8/22/08 9:47am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1 - Date Edited: 8/22/08 9:49am (1 edits total) Edited By: Rouge77
	Zorrixor posted: Possibly. Maybe I just want to give Haazen too much credit... as Lucien questioned from the start how a failure like Zayne could possibly be a threat. It makes Haazen seem somewhat dumb if he clung to a prophecy that is, now, debunked despite Lucien's initial protests. But Haazen is himself a failure in the eyes of Lucien, mere old Padawan who never made it to the status of a Jedi Knight and carries terrible wounds. So Haazen might well think that when Lucien hasn't been able to see Haazen for what he truly is, then perhaps Lucien has also made a mistake when it comes to Zayne. Like he has. And I think the prophecy on the moon is coming true, it's just that the Taris Masters were wrong to think it was just about one Sith. It was clearly at least about Alek alias Malak and Haazen. Alek having the same space suit as the Padawans and Haazen the Sith on Coruscant. They are in my opinion truly kindred spirits in three different generations: Haazen, Lucien and Zayne. All of them have been considered to be failures by others - Haazen and Zayne the failed Padawans, Lucien getting into the Jedi Order through a back door after failing his mother's hopes of being a seer - but all of them have their inner strengths and secrets. Haazen being a manipulator close to the level of Palpatine and also a Dark Jedi or a Sith, Zayne having his luck and goodness, and Lucien is a good warrior, but he probably has something else too that is yet to be revealed, whether he ends up as a Sith Lord or not. Lucien has come to see his resemblance to Zayne to some extent, next I guess he will have to see and recognize how much alike he and Haazen are. -----signature----- Recipient of the Confederation Ewok with "Rebel Yub"® Action!! Kill Ben Skywalker, the new Jar-Jar!
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Zorrixor Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 8/22/08 10:53am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1 - Date Edited: 8/22/08 11:05am (1 edits total) Edited By: Zorrixor
	Rouge77 posted: and I think the prophecy on the moon is coming true, it's just that the Taris Masters were wrong to think it was just about one Sith. It was clearly at least about Alek alias Malak and Haazen. Alek having the same space suit as the Padawans and Haazen the Sith on Coruscant. At this stage I'm still torn on how we're meant to take the "Sith Lord" from the vision. It could mean Alek, for the obvious reason that he wore said suit too, but I've always felt that was a bit too obvious as a red herring. If they'd kept Alek being Malak secret then it would have served as a major shock, but they gave that away so early on that it feels like a deliberate attempt to misdirect us. That said, Alek has been "around" during several aspects of the visions. I seem to recall him being "above" Taris with Jarael in orbit when Raana was going on about "Sith above and below". He's also now obviously been directly involved in what happened to Xamar, since he helped smuggle Zayne down to Coruscant. Not sure if Alek was around during the stuff with Feln though. I think the red suited Sith could also be Lucien or Haazen, on the simple basis of that they were the ones manipulating events to cause Zayne to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, so are basically the ones responsible for the other Covenant members' deaths. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if later during the arc we see Haazen escape to the Estate's hangar and don one of the red suits to escape. Maybe Haazen is the Revanchist without his hood. Ord_Hulska posted: Unless I read wrong, Haazen tells us who the five are in this issue. He says, "Add our new guests, and the group is complete. A fitting audience, don't you agree, young Carrick?" At least that's the way I took it, the five are all in the room at that time. So the Prophecy of the Five is: Q'anilia Lucien Haazen Zayne Gryph This lets Gryph fall perfectly into the "one is apart from all" deal. Side note: I love this comic. KOTOR is the best thing going for Star Wars right now, IMO. Interesting. Didn't think of the possible connection there. It makes sense, although it would feel a bit anticlimactic, since we still know so little about the importance of the prophecy. Raana heard it, Haazen now claims its come true, but that's about it. I guess it will be interesting to discover why Haazen cared about it so much. I suppose it could just be as simple as him knowing when said Five were assembled on Coruscant it would be the moment of his rise as the new Dark Lord though, so maybe we have just all been overanalysing it. Hmm... Darkness = Haazen Darkness in the Light = Lucien, pretending to be High Council member Light in the Darkness = Xamar, pretending to be loyal Covenant lackey Light = Zayne Apart = Gryph You know, that actually makes sense. That said... Rouge77 posted: They are in my opinion truly kindred spirits in three different generations: Haazen, Lucien and Zayne. All of them have been considered to be failures by others - Haazen and Zayne the failed Padawans, Lucien getting into the Jedi Order through a back door after failing his mother's hopes of being a seer - but all of them have their inner strengths and secrets. Haazen being a manipulator close to the level of Palpatine and also a Dark Jedi or a Sith, Zayne having his luck and goodness, and Lucien is a good warrior, but he probably has something else too that is yet to be revealed, whether he ends up as a Sith Lord or not. ...I am intrigued by the idea of there being a chain of failed students. In the same era we've also got Exar Kun, who was essentially a failed Padawan, and may have been Haazen's mentor, and, later on, we've got the Exile, who while a Jedi Knight is a failure of sorts as well, and ultimately kills Nihilus, who there are signs Lucien may be. Curious. However, Ord_Hulska's idea is quickly growing on me.
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Carnage04 Registered: Mar '05	Date Posted: 8/22/08 11:10am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1
	Zorrixor posted: Well I finally got the comic... fantastic issue. Not sure on the demon hat at the end though... looked a bit dorky. I kind of liked it. On Lucien or Zayne or someone it probably would have looked dorky...but with Haazen's disturbing appearance it is kind of creepy. Charlii posted: Issue 18. Haazen's order to Lucien is actually "Find the source of this dark power, then report back to me"... OOOOOH. So Haazen may have wanted to get his hands on the Exogorths. Bet that one made him real happy with Lucien. -----signature----- Carnage I Finally decided to use a signature after 3500 posts! 3500 posts * 7 Characters = 24500 keystrokes wasted
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UltimateMandalore Registered: Sep '06	Date Posted: 8/22/08 11:11am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1
	Ord_Hulska posted: Unless I read wrong, Haazen tells us who the five are in this issue. He says, "Add our new guests, and the group is complete. A fitting audience, don't you agree, young Carrick?" At least that's the way I took it, the five are all in the room at that time. So the Prophecy of the Five is: Q'anilia Lucien Haazen Zayne Gryph This lets Gryph fall perfectly into the "one is apart from all" deal. Side note: I love this comic. KOTOR is the best thing going for Star Wars right now, IMO. Never thought about that. I always thought that the five are the first watch circle or the murdered padawans plus zayne. These new revelations and speculation is very interesting. -----signature----- Mandalorians don't make threats, we make promises.
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DarthAdamentum Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 8/22/08 11:27am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1
	Ackbar_Van_Gungan posted: DarthAdamentum posted: Darth Andeddu revealed at last! You think Haazen is Andeddu? What makes you say that? -The Rebel Gungan its easy to speculate Haazen being either Sion or Nihilus. So to keep the suspense going my 2 cents is on him being Darth Andeddu. They do share the same grin you know. oh btw, Zayne Carrick me thinks is Darth Nihilus. -----signature----- And in their hearts, they never forgot the Jedi. The hatred for the Jedi Order burns in their veins like fire, and echoes in their teachings.
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Zorrixor Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 8/22/08 11:30am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1 - Date Edited: 8/22/08 11:35am (2 edits total) Edited By: Zorrixor
	I think rereading the issue answered my question about why Haazen wanted Zayne: "That's right! Xamar turned on you -- your secret order is done for!" - Zayne "Ah, but we have you, Zayne Carrick -- and your special relationship with the Force. Yes, I know of that. Sudden reversals of fortune are your business." - Haazen What's quite interesting, is when Haazen says that he has his hand on Zayne's shoulder, it feels quite symbolic of the line "Ah, but we have you". It makes it seem as if Haazen is hoping by having Zayne with him he can't be defeated. So long as he keeps Zayne near, Zayne's "luck" will act as a kind of shield, deflecting danger and keeping Haazen himself safe enough to get away. He might just have been being sarcastic, but it almost felt as if he was saying Zayne's "character shield" would brush off on those around him, a bit like how the Exile's confidence did the same. Kind of as if Zayne is a living and breathing lucky charm... and Haazen does have a lot of Sith charms dangling on his arms. Maybe he plans to go all Hannibal Lector on Zayne and use his skull as anothe one of those artifacts dangling from his belt on the next issue's cover. DarthAdamentum posted: Ackbar_Van_Gungan posted: DarthAdamentum posted: Darth Andeddu revealed at last! You think Haazen is Andeddu? What makes you say that? -The Rebel Gungan its easy to speculate Haazen being either Sion or Nihilus. So to keep the suspense going my 2 cents is on him being Darth Andeddu. They do share the same grin you know. oh btw, Zayne Carrick me thinks is Darth Nihilus. I mentioned Andeddu seemingly at random in passing a few days back. I suppose it could make sense and would tie in with the upcoming issue of Legacy (coincidence? ). I'm not sure though whether he looks that much like Andeddu. I guess its hard to compare his face with a corpse. He already looks pretty dead but Andeddu seems more "whole", not lacking in limbs. Even if Andeddu could "regrow" or something a la Sion, it feels a bit odd Haazen would lose his cybernetics and replace them with rotten limbs. I suppose making him Darth Andeddu though would tie in better than an all new character like Darth Trayus or whatever. I've a feeling they may not want to steal too much of Revan's thunder by making him into another Darth, but it would certainly be very interesting.
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PointGiven Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 8/22/08 11:37am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1 - Date Edited: 8/22/08 11:40am (1 edits total) Edited By: PointGiven
	Carnage04 posted: Well I finally got the comic... fantastic issue. Not sure on the demon hat at the end though... looked a bit dorky. It looks cool but a little funny. Haazen's appearance and words at the end of the issue make me think there's about to be a standard video game boss battle with the Final Fantasy Tactics Lucavi music pumping in. Ord Hulska posted: So the Prophecy of the Five is: Q'anilia Lucien Haazen Zayne Gryph Good guess, I didn't think about it. Makes it very interesting as this could be the turning point. -----signature----- Can you name the most important Sith Lords? http://www.sporcle.com/games/Caedus/sith_lords "Isn't it obvious? Gryph is the Destroyer of Worlds. You know Visas's line? It's a typo. Under Nihilus's mask is a Marn, nothing more."-Havac
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DarthAdamentum Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 8/22/08 2:01pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1
	Zorrixor posted: I think rereading the issue answered my question about why Haazen wanted Zayne: "That's right! Xamar turned on you -- your secret order is done for!" - Zayne "Ah, but we have you, Zayne Carrick -- and your special relationship with the Force. Yes, I know of that. Sudden reversals of fortune are your business." - Haazen What's quite interesting, is when Haazen says that he has his hand on Zayne's shoulder, it feels quite symbolic of the line "Ah, but we have you". It makes it seem as if Haazen is hoping by having Zayne with him he can't be defeated. So long as he keeps Zayne near, Zayne's "luck" will act as a kind of shield, deflecting danger and keeping Haazen himself safe enough to get away. He might just have been being sarcastic, but it almost felt as if he was saying Zayne's "character shield" would brush off on those around him, a bit like how the Exile's confidence did the same. Kind of as if Zayne is a living and breathing lucky charm... and Haazen does have a lot of Sith charms dangling on his arms. Maybe he plans to go all Hannibal Lector on Zayne and use his skull as anothe one of those artifacts dangling from his belt on the next issue's cover. DarthAdamentum posted: Ackbar_Van_Gungan posted: [quote=DarthAdamentum]Darth Andeddu revealed at last! You think Haazen is Andeddu? What makes you say that? -The Rebel Gungan its easy to speculate Haazen being either Sion or Nihilus. So to keep the suspense going my 2 cents is on him being Darth Andeddu. They do share the same grin you know. oh btw, Zayne Carrick me thinks is Darth Nihilus. I mentioned Andeddu seemingly at random in passing a few days back. I suppose it could make sense and would tie in with the upcoming issue of Legacy (coincidence? ). I'm not sure though whether he looks that much like Andeddu. I guess its hard to compare his face with a corpse. He already looks pretty dead but Andeddu seems more "whole", not lacking in limbs. Even if Andeddu could "regrow" or something a la Sion, it feels a bit odd Haazen would lose his cybernetics and replace them with rotten limbs. I suppose making him Darth Andeddu though would tie in better than an all new character like Darth Trayus or whatever. I've a feeling they may not want to steal too much of Revan's thunder by making him into another Darth, but it would certainly be very interesting.[/quote] very interestin point... -----signature----- And in their hearts, they never forgot the Jedi. The hatred for the Jedi Order burns in their veins like fire, and echoes in their teachings.
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cbagmjg Registered: Jul '06	Date Posted: 8/22/08 6:04pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1 - Date Edited: 8/22/08 6:07pm (1 edits total) Edited By: cbagmjg
	There are many ways to look at this issue and speculate. 1) What if Revan is Haazen's apprentice? The whole war could of been manipulated ala the Clone Wars. It seems odd that on their scouting missions that the jedi were ambushed right after Revan left Suurja. It feels odd that Revan seems to know about Lucien having the padawans killed with "The truth is written in blood". And with Haazen turning Jedi on Jedi will definately cause them to lose faith in the council, causing them to join Revan. And or... 2)What if Zayne joins Revan. The war has been going bad for the Republic, so what if Zayne joins them with his special connection(which oddly seems like Battle Meditation force power without the meditation) and rallies Revan's forces on. It would explain how Revan did so well. And then, when it comes time to corrupt Jedi on Malachor, Revan uses Zayne's power to corrupt most of his followers.
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 8/22/08 6:47pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1
	Actually, it'd require some set up. But the Revanchist's weird lack of a face could actually be a story point. Maybe he's Lucien's dad under that and is a "Dark Woman" style figure with no name.
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Trip Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 8/22/08 6:54pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1 - Date Edited: 8/22/08 6:55pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Trip
	Read it. Excellent issue. Jedi SWAT Robes = badass. That is all. -----signature----- RIP Jacen's Crotch 1991 - 2008
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