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Topic:
Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1
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Jeff_Ferguson
Registered:
May '06
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Date Posted:
8/20 11:26am
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1
- Date Edited:
8/20 11:32am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jeff_Ferguson
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QuinineVos posted:
All I can say is, bloody fantastic. Just when I thought this series couldn't get any better and the mystery couldn't deepen any further . . . . The expected revelation at the end and some unexpected ones along the way . . . .
Quoted for truth. An incredible issue, and not at all what I was expecting. Definitely not just a setup issue for the next three of the arc, as so much happened --- Jedi attacked Jedi (approved by Vrook Lamar!), dozens of Jedi were killed in an explosion, Xamar was killed by friendly fire, which was, despite the prophecy, incredibly unexpected --- and Haazen revealed himself to be a fricking Sith! Wow. Just... wow. It seems that this arc is going to get even juicier, with us being treated to Haazen's backstory next month, and Krynda still sure to make an appearance and shake things up even more (if she's alive --- but even if she isn't, the revelation of her death can get the desired shake-factor).
Xamar revealed himself to be an interesting, and deep, character. It was pretty cool to see him turn on the Covenant completely, for the sake of Krynda --- I kind of thought he would do a second double-cross before the issue was over, but then he died. And like I said before, the death, though inevitable, caught me completely off-guard. Karath's fleet? What? Whoa --- boom!
John Jackson Miller has outdone himself. Ching's art was also fantastic, and I'm very upset to see that Bong Dazo will be pencilling next issue. What was up with all of the Dazo love in the letters column? And from our own Grand Admiral Sean 8?? Well, at least Dazo is better than Lui Antonio. 
darkhorse.com has Dan Parons listed as the next penciller, though... but it looks like Ching will be back for Issue #34. It always kind of sucks to see the art disjointed throughout a single arc, but oh well.
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Zorrixor
Registered:
Sep '04
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Date Posted:
8/20 12:44pm
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1
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Charlemagne19 posted:
Haazen takes one look at Zayne then basically tosses him around, stating "Do you think I'm the same kind of idiot Lucien is? The Talisman is a fake and I sense no malice from you." Weird, Haazen seems to have been looking for the malice as if it would be a GOOD thing.
Awesome. Haazen must have wanted Zayne to fall to the dark side.
Charlemagne19 posted:
Then Haazen basically states "The Prophecy of the Five is true", revealing his red Sith robes. Haazen then explains he's been playing Lucien all along and arranged for him to become part of the Council, shaped him into a fanatic as a boy (calling him the unwanted son) and even arranged for Q'Anilla and him to fall in love (confirmation of my theory that I forwarded FIRST!)
*squeals with delight*
   
I did not see that coming. It was obvious Haazen was going to be revealed as the bad guy, but to outright reveal he is not just bad but a Sith... THE Sith? AWESOME!
The revelation in the campaign guide that Mandalore is not the real Mandalore and got there thanks to the Sith in the same month as they reveal Haazen is a Sith does not feel like a mere coincidence. I'm guessing either Haazen is THE Sith, the one who started it all, or else at least part of the same Sith faction that instigated everything (I think I prefer the lone survivor though to there being a whole group of them out there somewhere... well, unless Haazen is working with Kreia too or something, that'd be cool as well).
So, the big question I suppose is what happens to Lucien? I absolutely love Haazen's plan, it failed, but replacing the Jedi Council with a Sith Lord is a sweet idea (have we seen that before? I can't recall them trying that in the past). I especially love that Zayne basically saved the Jedi Order, the poodoo has royally hit the fan, and this is almost certainly going to play right into the Revanchist's hands to totally discredit the Council for not having seen A SITH LORD right in front of them (  brings us back to that scene with Revan shouting at the Council, doesn't it?).
Where we go from here... just wow. Lucien's broken and discredited. I could see him either pleading forgiveness or going on the run, either way it'll be good. I can't imagine they'd kill Haazen off right after revealing him as the bad guy, so here's hoping he escapes to send the Mandalorian Wars into overdrive. If he runs off to Mandalore (especially if he IS the Sith who helped this Mandalore become Mandalore) then that's going to give Revan and Malak all the ammo they need: Mandalorians and Sith.
Oh the irony if Revan ends up deciding he needs to become a Sith to defeat the Sith... 
If nothing else, Haazen being a Sith and being in league with the Mandalorians goes one step further to explaining how Revan may stumble across Malachor V. Maybe Haazen's been operating out of there from the start? *crosses fingers Haazen is Darth Trayus* 
Here's one for Ulicus as I've forgotten a bit... when did we settle on Revan discovering Malachor? Was it AT the Battle of Malachor or was there evidence from the CotOR that he started training people there a little bit before the end of the war? My mind's a bit fuzzy. I remember us discussing why it made no sense that the Mandalorians would be operating out of a planet they felt was a tabboo world, but don't recall if it was Revan's base already or if it was left unclear why the climax happened there. If it was Haazen's base... well... that'd be our answer.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
8/20 12:49pm
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1
- Date Edited:
8/20 12:50pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Charlemagne19
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Yes, it's pretty much obvious now that.
Haazen is a surviving Exar Kun loyalist.
FYI---Lucien isn't a Sith. He's broken and emotionally shattered by the Revelation. We're talking full blown fetal position.
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Red-emption
Registered:
Aug '08
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Date Posted:
8/20 1:08pm
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1
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Hold on. I don't think the issue exactly said that Haazen was himself a Sith. Dark Jedi, yes. But I wouldn't go as far as to say he is a Sith just yet. I did like how in the bottom right of the final page, the little "To be continued quote." was: "Untold Tales of the Jedi" in Tales of the Jedi font.
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UltimateMandalore
Registered:
Sep '06
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Date Posted:
8/20 1:09pm
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1
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Charlemagne19 posted:
Yes, it's pretty much obvious now that.
Haazen is a surviving Exar Kun loyalist.
FYI---Lucien isn't a Sith. He's broken and emotionally shattered by the Revelation. We're talking full blown fetal position.
Whoa. Lot of spoilers.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
8/20 1:10pm
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1
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Red-emption posted:
Hold on. I don't think the issue exactly said that Haazen was himself a Sith. Dark Jedi, yes. But I wouldn't go as far as to say he is a Sith just yet. I did like how in the bottom right of the final page, the little "To be continued quote." was: "Untold Tales of the Jedi" in Tales of the Jedi font.
I think Haazen certainly considers himself one since he refers to their prophecy and points to himself.
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Red-emption
Registered:
Aug '08
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Date Posted:
8/20 1:42pm
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1
- Date Edited:
8/20 1:43pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Red-emption
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Charlemagne19 posted:
Red-emption posted:
Hold on. I don't think the issue exactly said that Haazen was himself a Sith. Dark Jedi, yes. But I wouldn't go as far as to say he is a Sith just yet. I did like how in the bottom right of the final page, the little "To be continued quote." was: "Untold Tales of the Jedi" in Tales of the Jedi font.
I think Haazen certainly considers himself one since he refers to their prophecy and points to himself.
The Prophecy of the Five never mentioned the Sith. It merely mentions the Five and the Republic and Jedi falling between them. Don't get me wrong. This guy is definitely a Sith - in my and your opinion alone. JJM can turn this all around next issue with a line or two. "Haazen is a Sith!" "Haha! No I'm not! I'm just blah blah blah. I hate the Sith!"
I kinda want more on what exactly was the nature of Q'Anilia's and Lucien's relationship was. We know that they share bed chambers but was it just a "no strings attached, I'll do you, you'll do me." or did they actually have some sort of romantic relationship?
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
8/20 2:21pm
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1
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Zorrixor posted:
Here's one for Ulicus as I've forgotten a bit... when did we settle on Revan discovering Malachor? Was it AT the Battle of Malachor or was there evidence from the CotOR that he started training people there a little bit before the end of the war? My mind's a bit fuzzy. I remember us discussing why it made no sense that the Mandalorians would be operating out of a planet they felt was a tabboo world, but don't recall if it was Revan's base already or if it was left unclear why the climax happened there. If it was Haazen's base... well... that'd be our answer.
The implication from the CotOR is that Revan finds Malachor before he's even started his major push recruiting Jedi for the war. If we're going with just the games, however, then assuming everything they said stands:
1) Revan must find Malachor before the Dantooine Star Map, since he learns of Korriban's location from the Trayus Academy.
2) Malak refers to the Star Map on Dantooine as "the first", which implies he went to Kashyyyk later on.
3) As of 3956 BBY, Revan last accessed the Kashyyk Star Map "no less than five standard years ago" - placing his discovery of the Kashyyyk Star Map in 3961 BBY or before
4) The Battle of Malachor V was 3960 BBY
So, yeah, if the games are telling it straight, Revan has to have found Malachor before or during the war.
I don't know where the idea of the Mandalorians operating out of Malachor V came from, though. Revan lured them there. Though if it was Haazen's (or whoever the Sith was who goaded the Mandalorians) base of operations, that would explain why it was a "world the Mandalorians were forbidden to step foot on".
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Zorrixor
Registered:
Sep '04
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Date Posted:
8/20 2:26pm
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1
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Red-emption posted:
Charlemagne19 posted:
Red-emption posted:
Hold on. I don't think the issue exactly said that Haazen was himself a Sith. Dark Jedi, yes. But I wouldn't go as far as to say he is a Sith just yet. I did like how in the bottom right of the final page, the little "To be continued quote." was: "Untold Tales of the Jedi" in Tales of the Jedi font.
I think Haazen certainly considers himself one since he refers to their prophecy and points to himself.
The Prophecy of the Five never mentioned the Sith. It merely mentions the Five and the Republic and Jedi falling between them. Don't get me wrong. This guy is definitely a Sith - in my and your opinion alone. JJM can turn this all around next issue with a line or two. "Haazen is a Sith!" "Haha! No I'm not! I'm just blah blah blah. I hate the Sith!"
I kinda want more on what exactly was the nature of Q'Anilia's and Lucien's relationship was. We know that they share bed chambers but was it just a "no strings attached, I'll do you, you'll do me." or did they actually have some sort of romantic relationship?
Hmm... I guess you could have a fair point.
It could be the case Haazen is only a Lumiya-style wannabe trying to revive the Sith Order and the whole story having been him trying to work out which Jedi is destined to become the next Dark Lord. He's had the Covenant collecting Sith artifacts for him, so it might also be the case he is just a Dark Jedi who badly wants to be a Sith Lord. With no other Sith around, would that make him a Sith? I guess we're back to the age old $1,000,000 question of "Is a Dark Jedi who calls himself a Sith a Sith?" Personally, I'd rather he be one of Kun's surviving lackies though, even if we just give him "Sith acolyte" status akin to Lumiya.
My dreaming continues though for him to be Darth Trayus. 
It would be curious if Haazen "became a Sith to stop the True [Kunite] Sith" akin to the way Revan may well turn out to "become a Sith to stop [Haazen's] Mandalorians". I prefer the idea Haazen was outright evil than misguided though. Revan and Malak are the misguided ones, we've been needing a truly evil cause, and since they're reluctant to expand on Kreia, Haazen fits.
Ulicus from the KOTOR Campaign Guide thread posted:
Rouge77 posted:
And which Sith have been helping him? The True Sith? Haazen? (If he is a Sith and not "just" a Dark Jedi.) Or some escaped apprentices of Exar Kun? 
Not the "True Sith", hpoefully. Whatever "they" are, the True Sith are nothing to do with the Mandalorian vs Republic stuff. If you want to assume the physical threat Kreia implies is out there = the True Sith (even though that's not necessary), then it has to be taken into consideration that she also makes note that they, whoever they are, have "forgotten the galaxy". Which wouldn't make sense if they were the ones making deals with the Mandalorians.
The Sith Canderous speaks of being in cohoots with in KotOR I are clearly intended to be the Kunite Remnant (Haazen could very well be one of them), who are then assimilated into Revan's group.
Taking a leaf out of Mass Effect's book... could Haazen have been a kind of "vanguard" of the True [Kunite/Muurian] Sith? That'd make the main bulk of the True Sith threat still largely oblivious to things while having Haazen as the one who has gone out in the open.
That said, I think they've given themselves a perfect opportunity to end the True Sith problem once and for all. Just have it be one of Haazen's lies. Make Haazen THE Sith, singular, no more, no less: just Haazen. I think it'd be cool if when Revan has his glorious duel with Mandalore, have Haazen there too (maybe Zayne can fight alongside Revan and battle Haazen?). All we need is Haazen to say something like: "You think I'm the only one? Fools! The Sith will never be defeated!", reiterating his belief in the Prophecy of the Five.
He'd actually be refering to Revan's Sith Empire, but Revan would take it to mean there was this "True Sith Empire" out there somewhere and chase ghosts the rest of his life. The problem of the "True Sith" is then solved as having been false and not something Revan found out about after the Jedi Civil War but before it (maybe being what led him to Korriban in the first place). It'd just make Revan a bit of a dork after he was redeemed to not realise Haazen had been talking about him all along.
The only real problem I think the True Sith causes at present is KOTOR2 only showed Revan and Kreia knowing about it AFTER the Jedi Civil War, so we're left assuming it was a lingering threat Revan went to stop. If they knew about the True Sith pre-going Sith themselves its just a matter of them never waking up to the fact they were the True Sith.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
8/20 2:30pm
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1
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I personally have always liked the idea that Exar Kun was a lot more seductive than the Sith War comic books lead people to believe. Let's face it, Exar offers people knowledge and easy power plus still acts like he's a Jedi Knight DESPITE BEING SITH. It's a very seductive philosophy for those who feel overshadowed and its easy to see why Haazen might still be loyal, especially being the overshadowed student he is.
But yes, I love how Lucien the huge straight laced Jedi is also a hypocrite for kriffing his hot adopted sister.
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UltimateMandalore
Registered:
Sep '06
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Date Posted:
8/20 2:41pm
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1
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I missed something. Who are the Kunite/Muurian sith?
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blackmyron
Registered:
Oct '05
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Date Posted:
8/20 2:46pm
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1
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The new KOTOR campaign guide makes it clear most of the mysteries of Malachor V...
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
8/20 2:48pm
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1
- Date Edited:
8/20 2:59pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Ulicus
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Charlemagne19 posted:
I personally have always liked the idea that Exar Kun was a lot more seductive than the Sith War comic books lead people to believe.
He is. The comics don't show us even half of what actually happened.
We only see twenty Jedi converts, whilst KotOR implies that Kun "wildly successful" in converting Jedi, and that the war spanned the galaxy.
I vote for shoehorning an actual *Great Sith War* between Ulic's rescue from the Senate and Mandalore the Indomitable's presenting him with evidence of Aleema's betrayal.
So, by the omnibus, that means that the majority of the Sith War takes place between page 279 and 280. Just assume that Ulic's back from a long campaign, and that's why Aleema is so happy to see him, rather than his having just been rescued.
(I'd prefer shoehorning than flat out retconning the comics to be the 'wrong depiction', since I've grown to like them a lot over the years)
Zorrixor posted:
Taking a leaf out of Mass Effect's book... could Haazen have been a kind of "vanguard" of the True [Kunite/Muurian] Sith? That'd make the main bulk of the True Sith threat still largely oblivious to things while having Haazen as the one who has gone out in the open.
The Kunite Sith are assimilated into Revan's group. Canderous speaks of them as being the exact same entity: "It's amazing they rebuilt their fleet so fast".
Zorrixor posted:
That said, I think they've given themselves a perfect opportunity to end the True Sith problem once and for all. Just have it be one of Haazen's lies. Make Haazen THE Sith, singular, no more, no less: just Haazen. I think it'd be cool if when Revan has his glorious duel with Mandalore, have Haazen there too (maybe Zayne can fight alongside Revan and battle Haazen?). All we need is Haazen to say something like: "You think I'm the only one? Fools! The Sith will never be defeated!", reiterating his belief in the Prophecy of the Five.
He'd actually be refering to Revan's Sith Empire, but Revan would take it to mean there was this "True Sith Empire" out there somewhere and chase ghosts the rest of his life. The problem of the "True Sith" is then solved as having been false and not something Revan found out about after the Jedi Civil War but before it (maybe being what led him to Korriban in the first place). It'd just make Revan a bit of a dork after he was redeemed to not realise Haazen had been talking about him all along.
The only real problem I think the True Sith causes at present is KOTOR2 only showed Revan and Kreia knowing about it AFTER the Jedi Civil War, so we're left assuming it was a lingering threat Revan went to stop. If they knew about the True Sith pre-going Sith themselves its just a matter of them never waking up to the fact they were the True Sith.
Bah! There's only a true Sith problem if you assume the "True Sith" is a physical threat... when it works so much better as a metaphor.
Whilst Kreia does imply that there is a physical threat in the unknown regions "the great war that comes", she doesn't say that this war is anything to do the true the "True Sith". She simply says that the Sith is a "belief", and not made up of flesh or machines, and that its true "Empire" rules elsewhere: the implication, for me, being "hearts and minds". Evil will never die, and all that.
Honestly, I think it'd just be better if Revan was off sewing discord throughout the Vong and stalling their invasion. No need to make him a dork.
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I think the whole point of KotOR II was that Kreia realised she was in a work of fiction
I want a Freedon Nadd comic.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
8/20 2:51pm
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1
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blackmyron posted:
The new KOTOR campaign guide makes it clear most of the mysteries of Malachor V...
As would I, but I'm not shelling out anymore money to WOTC after what they did to the Forgotten Realms
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PointGiven
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
8/20 3:01pm
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic #32: Vindication, part 1
- Date Edited:
8/20 3:10pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
PointGiven
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PointGiven posted:
darthmohican posted:
He is defiantly a likable Jedi. Pretty level headed as compared to the rest of the Covenant. Although it hurts me to say it, I don't see him surviving for very long. I'm hoping otherwise though
I'm hoping he does do, but I doubt it. For me it's a question of whether Lucien or Haazen kills him, based on the covers of this issue and the next.
My far fetched guess that somewhat fits the prophecy (though not really) is that the Draay Estate is strafed by Republic fighters, or hit from orbit, killing Xamar (The estate seems to be in flames in #33). This, I severely doubt. I think Xamar's current actions have changed his fate in the prophecy.
Hey, it turned out my far fetched guess was the (mostly) correct one!
That being said, I wish Xamar had lived. He was one of my favorites and I loved his quote "I can sssee the future, you know. I just had to quit looking at the wrong one"
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