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Author	Topic: Clone Wars Ongoing Continuity Discussion (spoilers allowed)
sabarte Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 5/16 11:04am Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in progress: Will 'The Clone Wars' change everything?
	Eh. The US alone has seven towns called Wayland. It's not like planets have to have unique names.
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Jedimarine Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 5/16 11:05am Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in progress: Will 'The Clone Wars' change everything?
	TalonCard posted: And that's completely aside from the fact that all humans look alike to many aliens... TC Which is hysterical considering the scheme of nearly every species except Twi'lek. If these species have more attentive senses to pick up the differences amongst themselves...and they can't pick out human physique, pigment, body hair...I sense something else involved. -----signature----- GO SEE "THE DARK KNIGHT"
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The2ndQuest Title: : -Games -LACWAC -Lit Mod of Death Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 5/16 11:10am Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in progress: Will 'The Clone Wars' change everything?
	TalonCard posted: If Luke's married, how come they never mentioned it in YJK? To be fair, they intentionally kept that vague so as not to spoil the proposal in the forthcoming HOT duology, thoguh it had already been determined by the time YJK was being written. -----signature----- K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker? Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..." "If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
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TalonCard Title: TFN EU Staff Registered: Jan '01	Date Posted: 5/16 11:14am Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in progress: Will 'The Clone Wars' change everything? - Date Edited: 5/16 11:16am (1 edits total) Edited By: TalonCard
	sabarte posted: Eh. The US alone has seven towns called Wayland. It's not like planets have to have unique names. Yes, but that would be...a retcon! You can solve anything with a retcon. Contradiction signals need for a retcon, not a need to throw the old source (or the new one!) out. TC -----signature----- Death Star Guide: http://deathstar.njoe.com/Contents.htm GODV Guide: www.myuselessknowledge.com/swfa/main.html Hyperspace Blog: http://blogs.starwars.com/taloncard jawajames...I'll let you know...
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HedecGa Registered: Apr '06	Date Posted: 5/16 11:39am Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in progress: Will 'The Clone Wars' change everything?
	Hear, hear. -----signature----- "The Coming Evil, Book One: The Strange Man" available NOW at http://www.thecomingevil.com Author of the Dusty Duck databank entry - The 71st "Greatest Thing About Star Wars...Ever!" - SW Insider 100 Co-author of the Silya Shessaun databank entry
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Ulicus Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 5/16 11:48am Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in progress: Will 'The Clone Wars' change everything? - Date Edited: 5/16 11:51am (2 edits total) Edited By: Ulicus
	Jedimarine, yeah. My point is that the holofeed/net/whatever does reach Tattooine and it is shown as doing so in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader. Therefore it's a little weird no-one recognises Obi-Wan, since his was plastered all over it at one point. Though, hey, if he had his hood up... I guess it makes sense no-one would want to pick at him, as you say. dizfactor posted: That's pretty much how things were in TOTJ, but the Jedi of the KOTOR games and comics are much more PT-like. Out of universe, that obviously reflects the influence of the PT, but in-universe, it suggests a period of centralization between the GSW and the Mandalorian Wars, probably cemented at Exis. Indeed. That's how I imagine things having gone down. The Jedi Council appears to be very new. In fact, Vrook even says: "If we're going to have a Jedi Council then someone, somewhere, has to do what it says!" So... it seems pretty clear that even as late as 3963 BBY, the Jedi are still getting used to having a central authority. -----signature----- Recipient of Golden Ewok™ Trip Cares
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dizfactor Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 5/16 11:56am Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in progress: Will 'The Clone Wars' change everything?
	Jedi Ben posted: Then the SEs came out, followed by the PT, but it's only hit fever pitch in the last couple of years where there have been changes made where there was a known prior version. The concern arises over the setting of precedents, if X goes, what is next? If Y is got rid of and I'm a fan of Y, why should I continue to invest in SW EU? I find myself in agreement with Keralys on this: It's a strange business move. Not at all. In terms of the size of the audience and amount of revenue, Movies > TV and video games > ... huge gap ... > Novels and comics. From a business perspective, it makes a lot of sense to let the creators on the larger side of the huge gap have the creative freedom they need to maneuver without being constrained by what's already been done on the other side, and then let the novels and comics fill in the gaps in the larger story as best as they can. The creators of the animated series, basically, need as clean a slate as possible, because they need to let the story go where it needs to go in order to create a compelling narrative for millions of lay people who have never and will never read one of the comics or the novels. The comics and novels exist to service the brand which has been defined in the past by the movies and will be defined in the future by the TV shows and to a somewhat lesser extent, the games. Does it really make sense to tell the creators of a major TV show "No, you can't do that because it contradicts a comic read by an audience that is about 0.5-1% the size of your audience, at best?" "Sorry, all of your stories have to be crammed into the window between 24 and 30 months ABG, because the rest is taken up with a convoluted set of stories that appeal to a very vocal but not very numerous subset of hardcore fandom?" Look at it this way: Star Wars was like a rock dropped in a lake, and the massive licensing effort that came from that was the ripple effect. Now, the ripple effect as a whole made more money, ultimately, than the rock itself, but creatively everything still radiated outward from the rock. No single ripple (toys, comics, board games, paper plates for birthday parties, etc) was more important than the whole, either creatively or financially. No one demanded that Luke's lightsaber in ESB should be yellow to match the action figure, or that the Marvel comics should be allowed to kill off Luke if the story demanded it. Lucasfilm dropped a new rock with each movie, and it's a testament to the power of the original trilogy that the ripples were still sustainable during the 16-year gap between ROTJ and TPM. Some EU fans might have allowed themselves to believe that the ripples were rocks of their own back in the 90s, but that was proven wrong. They were still just ripples, and so, obviously, when Lucasfilm started dropping rocks again in 1999, they didn't get a veto or a say in the creative direction of the franchise. And, seriously, why should they? Do you think Lucas laid in bed at night wondering how he could reconcile his vision for ESB with Splinter of the Mind's Eye? Do you think he worried that people would wonder what happened to Jaxxon? Similarly, I think that a lot of people allowed themselves to think that the prequel trilogy was a one-time thing (err, three-time thing), and that things would go back to "normal" once ROTS came out. But, again, why should that be? And what leads people to believe that the Bantam era was "normal?" In retrospect, it seems pretty clear that the Bantam era was the exception, not the rule. Novels and comics are ripples, not rocks, and Lucasfilm has no apparent intention to dropping rocks anytime soon. The novels and comics are not a core part of their business, but a secondary profit stream that is derived from the core business: making movies, TV shows, and games. Yes, games: LucasArts is ultimately an in-house business, and not a licensing thing, and the relationship between LucasArts and, say, Obsidian, is not the same thing as the one between LFL and DR or DHC. Moreover, games reach a larger, more lucrative, and more mainstream audience than the rest of the EU, and as the distinctions continue to blue between animation, digital cinema, and videogames, there will be a lot more convergence on those fronts. Lucasfilm's strategy appears to be based on one or two major releases per year (rocks), and then everything else revolves around the needs of that (ripples). The big event of this year is the Clone Wars animated movie, followed by the animated series, followed by The Force Unleashed. Those are the rocks - everything else is the ripple effect. -----signature----- "Play is going to be for the 21st century what steam was to the 19th century." Julian Dibbell "You gotta love an elite killing force that you can fool by putting on a hat." Gryph
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SuperWatto Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 5/16 12:20pm Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in progress: Will 'The Clone Wars' change everything?
	Well said, Diz. And since this rock right here, the CW cartoon, just looks and smells like Star Wars, complaining that it doesn't fit with your regular ripple Jedi Trial - which doesn't at all look and smell like Star Wars - just isn't much use. Also: TC posted: Anybody remember the original Jabba the Hut? Hell! Yeah! For three years I thought that that was Jabba. I think, for three years, that actually was Jabba. Now he's his accountant. What's really going on is this: People become a fan, grow up, develop taste, get attached to stuff. Meanwhile, a franchise continues - and, like a tree, it branches out. The fan can't always see the root that got him in anymore... And starts complaining. With every new big release, a coupla fans will leave, a couple will be picked up. So whenever somebody complains about something new coming their way... I guess that's just that person growing up. Me, I'll never grow up. I guess I'm in it for the long haul. -----signature----- Trandoshan flatcakes!
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The2ndQuest Title: : -Games -LACWAC -Lit Mod of Death Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 5/16 12:26pm Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in progress: Will 'The Clone Wars' change everything? - Date Edited: 5/16 12:32pm (2 edits total) Edited By: The2ndQuest
	I think depends on a few factors actually- because treating the books and comics (which will often be more palpable to some segemnts of the audience that games and animation do not appeal to) like a rock can increase, from a business POV, the sales and audience of other mediums. If people are told, "if you want to find out about this story, or more about this character, you can find it in Book A or Comics B", more people, who might not otherwise even bother with those mediums, would be inclined to check them out (and, being linked to other books and comics, might be tempted to then explore those other titles as well). Likewise, someone who sticks to more mainstream genre mediums like books and comics might be convinced to check out a game or cartoon if it evolves the story and characters they're following. I also don't buy the excuse that continuity hampers storytelling (beyond factors like a storyteller having to familiarize themslves with the existing continuity and broader strokes of "I can't have clowns invade Coruscant"). I think a lot of times, it helps a story much like how budget or technical limitations force filmmakers to find a more creative solution that, more times than not, vastly improves the quality of the product, ala Jaws ("I was gonna have Character X do this, but that would conflict with Source Y...so maybe, instead, I'll have Character X do this and...oooh, I like that better!"); or, at the very least, can provide a support structure to help make a story truly come to life ("Source Z has this happening around the same time as this story...oh, that works beautifully with what I'm trying to accomplish here..."). I mean, look at it this way- this series is gonna be a series of mini-stories, apparently somewhat anthology-esque at times. There are about 3 gaps of time in the existing Clone Wars timeline that are barely touched and account for almost half of the entire war. There's absolutely no reason CW3D can't be fit into those huge gaps, and place certain stories in the proper corresponding gap. You'd have to rewrite very little in terms of setting to accomodate those timeline placements, at no threat to the integrity of the storyline. -----signature----- K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker? Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..." "If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
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SuperWatto Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 5/16 12:33pm Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in progress: Will 'The Clone Wars' change everything? - Date Edited: 5/16 12:35pm (1 edits total) Edited By: SuperWatto
	Wasn't it you, Quest, who posted a while ago that Filoni was given all the CW EU they could find? Looks like he did look at it and then thought: "What we came up with doesn't fit with what's established... So kark that!" I'm not saying that that's ideal, but I agree with Diz that it is how it works. These are the facts on the ground. Your version sounds better, but perhaps a bit idealistic. EDIT: and those three gaps... Why do you think they're there, specifically? Everybody wants to tell the definitive tale of the day after Geonosis, and the day before Coruscant. That's the prequels' Death Star plans. -----signature----- Trandoshan flatcakes!
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Master_Keralys Title: Manager: -Lit -EUC Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 5/16 12:38pm Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in progress: Will 'The Clone Wars' change everything?
	I'm wondering how this fits with what we've been given previously about them wanting to fit continuity closely - in the viddocs and so on, referencing Sora Bulq, etc. - and whether this will perhaps be some stealth retconning even in the series. Diz, you're right from a business perspective, and it's good analysis. I still agree a lot more with T2Q here, though: when properly executed, continuity is a boon rather than a hindrance to good storytelling. A perfect example of this is I, Jedi (which I have on the brain since I just reread it): the sections of the book that work around and through the events of JAT are actually better than the rest of the book - which is still fine. Why? Well, it's up for debate, but clearly, having existing continuity to work around wasn't the issue. And while there are things I wouldn't be sad to see go (Jedi Trial, I'm looking at you), it is the precedent that bothers me here. So does the fact that this is representative of and indicative a larger trend in the direction of more fluid continuity. As I've stated earlier in the thread, I don't mind that as much as I do the fact that they keep asserting, "Everything is in! Everything is in!" when that's clearly not true. I still am looking forward immensely to TCW and I think it's going to be a great show: when Lucas sticks to story and lets other people do the actual writing and directing, you end up with ESB, and that's a darn good movie. - Keralys -----signature----- God made man. Man rejected God. God became the man Jesus Christ, died and rose again to life, saving man from himself. The craziest story ever told. The truest.
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sabarte Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 5/16 12:46pm Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in progress: Will 'The Clone Wars' change everything?
	If the Clone Wars EU had been more awesome, I would have been much more upset. But it was disjointed at best, and rearranging the timeline hurts very little and may well improve cohesion. I actually trust Filoni to make it awesome. Awesome can always be forgiven. My only serious concern is Asajj's characterization, and the Asajj/Obi-Wan dynamic. The hint seems to be they're going the opposite direction on that from what we saw in prior EU. I have further hopes for the Separatists(I would love to see Sora) in general, but...we'll see.
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dp4m Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 5/16 12:56pm Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in progress: Will 'The Clone Wars' change everything?
	A couple of points: 1) Just a minor quibble with diz's analysis above, which is that I THINK books/comics sell more than video games. But that's a minor point. However, it may explain why things like "game mechanics" were always allowed a slide on canon. 2) Again, and I do not know why this was the case, continuity took a dive when Del Rey took over the license from Bantam. I'm going to expand on #2 above, because I don't know for certain why and we have no proof as to why -- so everything is speculation. Here's what we DO know: a) LFL instituted a top-down canon policy which was highly enforced post-Marvel, beginning in 1987 with WEG and expanded to have them (WEG) manage the "universal canon" and forced the novel/comics licensees to go off of WEG's direction. b) This cause high crossover cohesion with authors / WEG / comic folks in some cases all going over some of the other mediums (novels to comics, novels to RPG, RPG to novels, etc.) c) I think, and one of the more detailed canon experts can verify, almost nothing had to be retconned in the Bantam-era (even with unintentional, stupid retcons -- e.g. Mara/Lando). This changed, ostensibly, in 1999 with the license switch BUT (and this is a big one) it may be entirely circumstantial as, y'know, it's not like there was anything else going on in 1999 which could have radically affected canon in a "top-down" approach... So, ultimately, we don't know the whys or the wheres or the hows as to how the canon thing became unraveled -- whether it was LFL themselves due to the PT, whether it was the RPG license shift from WEG to WOTC, whether it was the novel license shift from Bantam to DR, whether it was a combination of all of these things or whether it was none of them. All we truly know is that it happened. -----signature----- "Looks like you're about to get pwned" - Eric Cartman "Awarding experience points for cleverly and creatively generating an enjoyable experience. How warped is that?" - Darths & Droids
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The2ndQuest Title: : -Games -LACWAC -Lit Mod of Death Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 5/16 12:57pm Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in progress: Will 'The Clone Wars' change everything? - Date Edited: 5/16 1:02pm (2 edits total) Edited By: The2ndQuest
	sabarte posted: If the Clone Wars EU had been more awesome, I would have been much more upset. But it was disjointed at best, and rearranging the timeline hurts very little and may well improve cohesion. I disagree- for once, we had an era set out with very specific dating, as opposed to prior movie eras, where things were either crunched down (ANH-ESB) or so large and uneventful that you didn't need specific dating (TPM-AOTC). Though there are a couple small points of cohesive trouble (mostly the adapted Battle of Coruscant material), the war's era was actually structured and they more or less stuck to that. (now, story flow from source to another may be disjointed, but the structure of events remained intact). The downside to that is it makes it very difficult to rework the era if that's what they are, in fact doing, and renders any attempts at a proper timeline of events pretty much moot since most dating references would be completely inaccurate. SuperWatto posted: Wasn't it you, Quest, who posted a while ago that Filoni was given all the CW EU they could find? Looks like he did look at it and then thought: "What we came up with doesn't fit with what's established... So kark that!" Yeah, Leland said he/they had been given copies of the CW material. Dave has also said he was a fan of the material and pretty much knew it by heart- it's George who pushed for "C'mon...". the way it reads to me, is that we probably would have had a CW3D series that was pretty respective of continuity by Dave, had Lucas not gained a personal interest and involvement in the project. Going by Dave's other comments (the aforementioned references to Sora, etc), I get the impresison he'll still be pushing for EU elements and integration until the point where either it's not appropriate for a TV-only audience (the "will they get what this means without reading the comics/books" examples he's given) or outright overruled by whatever Lucas wants to do ("This is when clowns invade Coruscant" ). The former is expected and perfectly understandable- it's pretty a rule of law for the EU and any multi-media farnchise. The latter is just the way things are with creator's perrogative. It is, however, vastly annoying sometimes -----signature----- K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker? Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..." "If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
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sabarte Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 5/16 1:09pm Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in progress: Will 'The Clone Wars' change everything?
	The comics have trivial sales compared to everything else, though I don't know about the TPBs. Though this is since the comic book market crash - but I'm pretty sure Heir to the Empire still swamped Dark Empire. You're talking dates, I'm talking cohesion of events. We never see the war as a whole, just...episodic Jedi buttkicking. It's wildly one-sided. If it wasn't for HolonetNews, we'd have dang near close to no real Separatist victories (no, Jabiim doesn't count, since the main villain died in the process)
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