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Topic:
Clone Wars Ongoing Continuity Discussion (spoilers allowed)
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dizfactor
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/16 1:33pm
Subject:
RE: Continuity implosion in progress: Will 'The Clone Wars' change everything?
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dp4m posted:
Just a minor quibble with diz's analysis above, which is that I *THINK* books/comics sell more than video games.
SW novels, AFAIK, average in the mid-to-high hundreds of thousands of copies, at a cover price of around $7, from which Lucas pockets the licensing fees. SW videogames sell in the low millions, at a cover price of $40-60, of which Lucas keeps the bulk. They're not really in the same league.
The2ndQuest posted:
I think depends on a few factors actually- because treating the books and comics (which will often be more palpable to some segemnts of the audience that games and animation do not appeal to) like a rock can increase, from a business POV, the sales and audience of other mediums. If people are told, "if you want to find out about this story, or more about this character, you can find it in Book A or Comics B", more people, who might not otherwise even bother with those mediums, would be inclined to check them out (and, being linked to other books and comics, might be tempted to then explore those other titles as well).
Nice theory, but it doesn't appear to be true in any large sense. Direct tie-ins often make a lot of money, but that doesn't generally spill over. The runaway success of the Spider-Man and X-Men movie franchises did absolutely nothing for sales of the comics, for example. In general, big blockbuster media hits do not inspire huge numbers of people to check out other media or change media-buying habits.
The2ndQuest posted:
Likewise, someone who sticks to more mainstream genre mediums like books and comics might be convinced to check out a game or cartoon if it evolves the story and characters they're following.
One, books and comics are not more mainstream, either in the larger sense or relative to the genre.
Two, generally speaking, people who are heavily invested in the more niche stuff will reliably come out for the blockbusters. You can be assured that the vast majority of SW EU fans will be in the theater when Clone Wars hits - probably at midnight and in costume. They might threaten a boycott, but they won't do it, and they might rant and rave about the continuity issues, but they're still dropping the ticket money.
Three, you're dealing with vastly different scales here. All the heavily invested hardcore SW EU fans in the world, acting in concert, will not have a significant direct impact on the ticket revenues for a summer blockbuster one way or the other.
The2ndQuest posted:
I also don't buy the excuse that continuity hampers storytelling
I think you're generally dead wrong there.
The2ndQuest posted:
(beyond factors like a storyteller having to familiarize themslves with the existing continuity
Which is an unreasonable burden to put on people. People making movies are too busy to read all this stuff.
The2ndQuest posted:
I think a lot of times, it helps a story much like how budget or technical limitations force filmmakers to find a more creative solution that, more times than not, vastly improves the quality of the product, ala Jaws ("I was gonna have Character X do this, but that would conflict with Source Y...so maybe, instead, I'll have Character X do this and...oooh, I like that better!")
Another nice theory, doesn't appear to be backed up by reality.
Let's look at it this way: Do you really think the Prequels would have been improved by more continuity wonkery? There were a lot of problems with the PT, but that most certainly wasn't one of them.
The2ndQuest posted:
I mean, look at it this way- this series is gonna be a series of mini-stories, apparently somewhat anthology-esque at times. There are about 3 gaps of time in the existing Clone Wars timeline that are barely touched and account for almost half of the entire war. There's absolutely no reason CW3D can't be fit into those huge gaps, and place certain stories in the proper corresponding gap. You'd have to rewrite very little in terms of setting to accomodate those timeline placements, at no threat to the integrity of the storyline.
I think you'd get a better movie just taking AOTC as your starting point, ROTS as your ending point, and giving the filmmakers carte blanche to get from Point A to Point B, and allowing them to dip into the existing EU if they want to, or letting them ignore it.
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dp4m
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
5/16 1:35pm
Subject:
RE: Continuity implosion in progress: Will 'The Clone Wars' change everything?
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dizfactor posted:
dp4m posted:
Just a minor quibble with diz's analysis above, which is that I *THINK* books/comics sell more than video games.
SW novels, AFAIK, average in the mid-to-high hundreds of thousands of copies, at a cover price of around $7, from which Lucas pockets the licensing fees. SW videogames sell in the low millions, at a cover price of $40-60, of which Lucas keeps the bulk. They're not really in the same league.
Hmmm, I didn't think the games sold that many but I admit to doing NO console gaming so my perception is likely highly skewed and am totally willing to believe you on this. 
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HedecGa
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
5/16 2:08pm
Subject:
RE: Continuity implosion in progress: Will 'The Clone Wars' change everything?
- Date Edited:
5/16 2:12pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
HedecGa
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2ndQuest posted:
Dave has also said he was a fan of the material and pretty much knew it by heart- it's George who pushed for "C'mon...". the way it reads to me, is that we probably would have had a CW3D series that was pretty respective of continuity by Dave, had Lucas not gained a personal interest and involvement in the project. Going by Dave's other comments (the aforementioned references to Sora, etc), I get the impresison he'll still be pushing for EU elements
Yeah, and with Lucas' limited knowledge of current EU, Dave could probably say "Um...hey, George! We all just came up with this awesome new character named Sora Bulq!" and George could say "Hey! What a great idea!"
dizfactor posted:
The2ndQuest posted:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I also don't buy the excuse that continuity hampers storytelling
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I think you're generally dead wrong there.
"Then you are lost!"
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
-Games
-LACWAC
-Lit Mod of Death
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
5/16 2:12pm
Subject:
RE: Continuity implosion in progress: Will 'The Clone Wars' change everything?
- Date Edited:
5/16 2:17pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
The2ndQuest
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dizfactor posted:
One, books and comics are not more mainstream, either in the larger sense or relative to the genre.
Maybe not comics, I conceed (those woudl appeal to more independent tastes not likely to invest in more mainstream product, now that i think about it), but a large portion of the population, sadly, still look down upon or flat out do not understand video games (just look at any news article or segment dealing with games over the past 15 years, 90% of them are ill-informed "games are the devil/killer-makers!" (the other 10% would be "WOW/Halo/GTA just made an amazing crapload of money" reports  ), and others (maybe even the same people) look down upon animation as "just a cartoon" and have little context outside of saturday morning fare or the Flintsones. To those segments of the population, something like a book is more mainstream to them.
However, video games will certainly outgross books, just based on product retail prices alone. But the books aren't that far behind the books in total sales, depending on the titles being compared (according to the figures found in these two wiki entries: books & games).
SW games seem to average about 1.5 million copies sold for a title, with 2 million on the typical high end and 1 million on the typical low end.
SW books, across approx. 200 titles, supposedly have over 160 million copies in print, which averages about 800,000 copies per title.
Obviously, some will sell higher, and some lower. Games sell about twice as many copies, but a top-selling book can probably match an average SW game or exceed an underperforming one.
dizfactor posted:
The2ndQuest posted:
I also don't buy the excuse that continuity hampers storytelling
I think you're generally dead wrong there.
The2ndQuest posted:
(beyond factors like a storyteller having to familiarize themslves with the existing continuity
Which is an unreasonable burden to put on people. People making movies are too busy to read all this stuff.
And I'm not demanding they take on that burden- but in some cases, they either don't mind, or (as in Dave's case) are already familiar with the material, and don't have to worry about doing much in the way of additional research.
And I'm dead right
dizfactor posted:
Another nice theory, doesn't appear to be backed up by reality.
Let's look at it this way: Do you really think the Prequels would have been improved by more continuity wonkery?
My theory regarding filmmaking limitations is backed up by reality, but I use that as an analogy to continuity in existing worlds like SW.
But, I think there would have been improvement if there were strides to maintain more continuity with the OT, actually. Not much that really needed to be done, continuity-wise, that wasn't easily (for the most part) worked out. Wouldn't have minded a dreadnaught or headhunter in there, though
I don't have problems with reworking our perceptions of what might happened, like with Boba Fett's backstory, since that opens doors for new, sometimes better, stories via retcons, but there are limits to changing perceptions and outright undoing events.
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
5/16 2:18pm
Subject:
RE: Continuity implosion in progress: Will 'The Clone Wars' change everything?
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T2Q posted:
SW books, across approx. 200 titles
*BAM!*
"Here, Dave, make sure your movie fits with this!"
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Jedi Ben
Registered:
Jul '99
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Date Posted:
5/16 2:24pm
Subject:
RE: Continuity implosion in progress: Will 'The Clone Wars' change everything?
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SuperWatto posted:
T2Q posted:
SW books, across approx. 200 titles
*BAM!*
"Here, Dave, make sure your movie fits with this!"
"Hmm, best not to bother then."
"And the fans?"
"What about them?"
"Won't they be pissed?"
"Won't stop them watching it and buying a ticket to do so..."
"And the new books and comics?"
"They'll buy them too."
"So that means..."
"....we can do WHATEVER WE WANT!"
"What do we do tomorrow night Brain?"
"The same thing we do every night Pinky: Plot to screw over SW fans!"
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Castle: So they can't walk away. So they can't
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Castle: I don't do redemption.
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Bly
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
5/16 2:58pm
Subject:
RE: Continuity implosion in progress: Will 'The Clone Wars' change everything?
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Sorry to insert a tangent here, but does anyone think Mace's holo is talking to a young Wilhuff Tarkin in the trailer? It looked a lot like Tarkin to me.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/16 3:05pm
Subject:
RE: Continuity implosion in progress: Will 'The Clone Wars' change everything?
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I was thinking the same thing.
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darth_Boba
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/16 3:12pm
Subject:
RE: Continuity implosion in progress: Will 'The Clone Wars' change everything?
- Date Edited:
5/16 3:12pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
darth_Boba
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Jedi Ben posted:
*BAM!*
"Here, Dave, make sure your movie fits with this!"
"Hmm, best not to bother then."
"And the fans?"
"What about them?"
"Won't they be pissed?"
"Maybe, but it's all fictional remember? They'll get that."
"Right. For a second there I forgot that Star Wars isn't real and doesn't have real history."
Fixed.
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sabarte
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
5/16 3:40pm
Subject:
RE: Clone Wars Ongoing Continuity Discussion
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Thread title retconned again at my request
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Whizkid
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
5/16 4:43pm
Subject:
RE: Clone Wars Ongoing Continuity Discussion
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God, I come home from college excited to read the EU I missed for the past year or so and see this on the front page. 
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
-Games
-LACWAC
-Lit Mod of Death
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
5/16 10:48pm
Subject:
RE: Clone Wars Ongoing Continuity Discussion
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SuperWatto posted:
T2Q posted:
SW books, across approx. 200 titles
*BAM!*
"Here, Dave, make sure your movie fits with this!"
Actually it'd be more like around 12 novels & 10 graphic novels....
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K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker?
Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
"If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
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Prequel_Dreamer
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
5/16 11:24pm
Subject:
RE: Clone Wars Ongoing Continuity Discussion
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dp4m posted:
A couple of points:
1) Just a minor quibble with diz's analysis above, which is that I *THINK* books/comics sell more than video games.
You would be incorrect. The video game industry is a MUCH more lucrative part of the entertainment industry than publishing is and indeed has grown to be far more lucrative than even the motion picture industry. It isn't surprising either. I mean video games cost anywhere from thirty to sixty dollars and pop and everyone from young to old is playing them. Far more than is reading books these days. To state that literature sells better than video games is wishful thinking at best and naive at worst. Just compare the print run of any comic/novel in the Star Wars saga compared to video games disks or even movie tickets and you'll find that the literature is dwarfed. That's why in the end there'll be no harm done to the Star Wars name by overwriting any literary continuity. The numbers of readers are so small compared to viewers/players as to be negligible.
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May 19th, 2005 "Oh Yeah!"
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TalonCard
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Jan '01
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Date Posted:
5/16 11:40pm
Subject:
RE: Clone Wars Ongoing Continuity Discussion
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SuperWatto posted:
Wasn't it you, Quest, who posted a while ago that Filoni was given all the CW EU they could find?
Looks like he did look at it and then thought: "What we came up with doesn't fit with what's established... So kark that!"
I think, from what we've been hearing, that this was due more to George Lucas's involvment...which has been considerably more extensive than anyone involved had thought it would be when this whole project began. Still, you're right; that's pretty much what they did...but this shouldn't degenerate into a Lucas-canon-vs-EU-canon issue because the EU products are constantly saying "What we came up with doesn't fit with what's established... So kark that!" We should probably call it something like "Death Star syndrome".
Master_Keralys posted:
So does the fact that this is representative of and indicative a larger trend in the direction of more fluid continuity. As I've stated earlier in the thread, I don't mind that as much as I do the fact that they keep asserting, "Everything is in! Everything is in!" when that's clearly not true.
I'm afraid we're simply going to have to get used to it. First of all, it would be difficult to pinpoint a time at which the continuity was less fluid than it is right now. (Again, Death Star syndrome.) Second of all, LFL knows very well many of the main points we've been discussing here:
#1: Having an expanded universe that incorporates as many published sources as possible is good for business.
#2: Declaring outright that a particular source is invalid is a good way to alienate fans of that source.
#3: Nevertheless, very few people are actually going to notice contradictions between sources. (How many of you noticed that the novel "Death Star" introduced a Death Star plan theft senario that not only contradicted every other story that had tried to tell the tale, and also nearly every attempt to reconcile the other stories, and made no sense at all? That's what I thought.)
So yes, this results in the "Everything is in!" mantra. As exhibit A, I present everyone's other favorite Lucasfilm property, Indiana Jones. Indy's continuity has never been as strictly enforced as Star Wars's has. Much of it has been out of print for a number of years. A lot of it is downright terrible. Many pre-Raiders stories had Indy encountering major supernatural artifacts. The novels had Indy pursuing mysteries he had already solved in the young adult series. The novels contradict Lucas's Young Indiana Jones Chronicles television series in a number of places, in spite of the fact that both were being created at the same time. If LFL had restarted the Indy universe, taking into account only the canon films and TV show, few people would have batted an eye.
And yet if you pick up the just-released Ultimate Guide to Indiana Jones or the Lost Journal of Indiana Jones, you'll note that the events of the novels seem to pick right up where the TV show left off, as though it'd been planned that way all along, and the young adult series is in the timeline too, as though it never contradicted the novels at any point.
So there you have it. We get to have our cake and eat it too--it just tastes a little funny going down. Personally, I prefer the "Everything is in!" attitude to the "This particular part is out!" attitude...with the knowledge that we have a cadre of self-appointed continuity fixers all set to make it seem like everything worked together all along.
TC
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CountJared
Registered:
May '00
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Date Posted:
5/16 11:47pm
Subject:
RE: Clone Wars Ongoing Continuity Discussion
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Video games are also a HUGE gamble. Some games cost as much as a big budget movie to produce, not to mention the time involved. Books on the other hand only require an author and someone to publish it. They might be getting a lot of money from video game sales but they have to recoup all the costs they've sunk into it. I'm sure that by and large video games are more profitable but it can be an awful risk. For every Dark Forces:Jedi Knight you have Star Wars:Demolition or Teras Kasi. Those mistakes can be costly.
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