Jedi Council Forums - Clone Wars Ongoing Continuity Discussion (spoilers allowed)

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Author	Topic: Clone Wars Ongoing Continuity Discussion (spoilers allowed)
Master_Keralys Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 5/12/08 10:09am Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in process
	Isn't there communication back and forth there, though? It's been quite a bit since I read it (like, a couple of years), but aren't the two intrinsically linked together by the very nature of the story? - Keralys -----signature----- God made man. Man rejected God. God became the man Jesus Christ, died and rose again to life, saving man from himself. The craziest story ever told. The truest.
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SuperWatto Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 5/12/08 10:10am Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in process
	LtNOWIS posted: Well, if we have to lose a book... I agree. If Jedi Trial is all that suffers, I'll consider this a quality canon revamp. By the way, didn't we have a clone wars timeline thread somewhere? I suppose that should help here. -----signature----- Christmas destroyer
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_Catherine_ Registered: Jun '07	Date Posted: 5/12/08 10:15am Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in process - Date Edited: 5/12/08 10:19am (1 edits total) Edited By: _Catherine_
	http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=9386719 Good luck, Quest. -----signature----- There ain't no rust on the happiness bus.
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sabarte Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 5/12/08 10:18am Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in process
	And patch, it's not like people are freaking out in here. A semi-mutable canon (which to be honest, is what we've had for a while) can be a good thing. It depends on how it is run. When you marginalize bits of dubious quality within canon and keep the good parts, for the most part the readers don't complain and may even approve. Very few people are seriously clamoring to bring back Ken Palpatine, or Aing-Tii teleportation. The Clone Wars, while individual parts were sometimes good, kind of completely failed in cohesion. And a lot of people disliked Jedi Trial for some reason But. When you marginalize or destroy parts that are good and bring back bits that are bad, readers get much, much whinier, and with good reason. That's some of what's going on with LOTF and in the Invincible thread.
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patchworkz7 Registered: Mar '04	Date Posted: 5/12/08 10:21am Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in process
	dp4m posted: patch, I'm still not quite sure WHY it is you hate the notion of an established, immutable canon which was around in Star Wars since, at the very least, 1987? Every post you make on the subject seems to be of the notion that those of us who. y'know, actually care about it are delusional in some fashion and that you can't wait for it to be destroyed which, to my sensibility, would be no different than a movie purist coming in here and bashing the EU simply because... Whoa, back up a second. First, my target isn't you guys, and if it is, I apologize. Also, this is more "D'oh!" than "Ha!" I picked up the "Canon go boom" from you lot and have used it to show the problems that LFL seems to have. We talked about this in private before, and in public as well, and I think I just mentioned it in my last post. LFL continues to assure us that all is well, that EVERYTHING is going to fit into canon, and they MUST know that it won't. They must at least know that changing sizable chunks of character motivations, when characters did things, why characters do things, adding characters, adding battles, adding stories that overlap with the timeline of pre-existing stories will overrun the canon that already exists. As a customer, I resent being lied to. Heck, I'd like it more if they brought in some sort of "No-Prize" for this stuff (Marvel comics fans will know what I mean). They don't, instead they say NOTHING. We've all been wary of what's going to happen from day one of the announcement, and now instead of making any announcements at any level they just make a databank change. Why? Why not just treat us like the adults most of us are and inform us, in the interviews on the subject, on their own website, anywhere, that while they respect the EU and the novels and comics that they're all different animals and the reality of the franchise is that they just can't or won't make everything fit. This isn't an accidental overwrite. They claim to know the EU, then they know when Anakin was knighted. Period. I apologize if you think this is all on you guys, but it's not, and the only thing I'm mildly amused by is that people will tie themselves into knots to try to make things fit. I WANT a complete continuity that fits. Seriously, I really do, but as it is set up right now I don't see it happening unless they change their business practices in a serious manner. The cartoon guys have a host of stories from the EU to tie into, and instead, they're going back and stealth editing everything. Now, on one hand, my core personal belief is that, as Alan Moore said in "Whatever Happened to the Man of Steel?" is that: "This is an Imaginary Story...but aren't they all?" (may be paraphrased). IOW, it's fiction. I can get onboard with that, but I think it's unfair to pretend that it's all meant to fit, that everyone is making sure it all fits, when they are obviously not concerned with that. I want a concise, coherant EU, but if they're going to change it, I don't want my intelligence insulted by telling me "It all fits" when I can read the material or watch it and see that it doesn't. And I don't believe it's not possible, I think it's very possible, but not one has tried to make it work. Maybe the answer is a series of "soft-Crisis" type non-events where the reality of the story is simply changed. BTW, the bet was with another fan that LFL wouldn't tell anyone if they decided to change the timeline, but just do it. Now what about people like Nathan Butler who put all that love into doing their timelines? What about people who thought that they were supposedly reading one complete story? Why couldn't they have just told us ahead of time this is what was coming? My thing is that I can't pretend it all fits, because it DOESN'T. So, I have one of two ways to go, I either do their work for them and try to fanon out some explination (which...the Anakin thing is kinda big), or I accept that they aren't going to try to keep a singular canon and either we'll drift into everyone going their own way or it'll all just be one mess that that the fans are left to untangle. And I'd STILL be fine if they just said that. So, the biggest thing is; PLEASE; don't take any of that as anger at people who want a coherant canon, because I'm actually one of you. I just agree with exactly what Trip once said about wanting them to just TELL us. That's it. I can handle SW like it's X-Men where there's Ultimate X-Men and the movie X-Men and novel X-Men and cartoon X-Men and so on if that's how they want to do it, or even a halfway point between that, but the company should be able to come out and admit it, because most of us have been fans for all our lives, and it costs them nothing to do that. We'd still read the comics. We'd still read the novels. We'd still watch the cartoons. Pull the band-aid and just get it over with, or change the internal policy and MAKE everyone, and I mean everyone, follow the canon exactly (once they sort out what is and isn't, and if there's a question, just don't reference it). I really can't make it clearer that my frustration is with a company, not the fans. -----signature----- Original Fiction & essays "Does God Limp?" in HOUSE UNAUTHORIZED http://www.smartpopbooks.com/allbooks/2007.html#house Now in German and Polish Editions! James A Gilmer
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LtNOWIS Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/12/08 10:25am Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in process
	I'm warming up to my "temporary rank" idea. The fact that they were going to allow him onto the Jedi Council as a knight shows how they were willing to bend the rules for him anyways. -----signature----- A little bit about me: http://tinyurl.com/bnmcck
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patchworkz7 Registered: Mar '04	Date Posted: 5/12/08 10:31am Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in process
	Master_Keralys posted: And, here's the big one, why as a businessman does GL seem to have so little respect for the EU? QFT. And I think maybe that's what drives me up a wall the most. There are other major franchises that have dealt with mutable canon changes for decades and have survived just fine, but the companies behind them have always given it a bit of a nod and wink. I've never seen someone who basically says that a huge section of his empire doesn't matter. The Harry Potter movies may not line up with the books, but does anyone see JK Rowling coming out and disavowing them? There's a sensible way to handle mutable canon that maintains the integrity and also the respect for the fans, and I just don't feel like this is the way to do it, imo. -----signature----- Original Fiction & essays "Does God Limp?" in HOUSE UNAUTHORIZED http://www.smartpopbooks.com/allbooks/2007.html#house Now in German and Polish Editions! James A Gilmer
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patchworkz7 Registered: Mar '04	Date Posted: 5/12/08 10:43am Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in process
	sabarte posted: When you marginalize or destroy parts that are good and bring back bits that are bad, readers get much, much whinier, and with good reason. That's some of what's going on with LOTF and in the Invincible thread. Who decides that though? And I mean that honestly. All reviews are subjective. There's no objective standard. If material has passed through the editors...then it is part of the "canon" of that universe. Also, there's loads of stuff that people like that others are not going to like. How do you trim the bad parts away without taking out some of the good? Look, I apologize for sounding flip about it, but it's not the idea of a strict or even a semi-mutable canon that annoys me. Quite the opposite; I'm enough of an anorak that I WANT that, I LOVE that idea, but I'm honestly bothered that LFL keeps putting out stuff that they know goes against things they determined to be in-canon, then won't stand behind their creators, and basically also have the stones to say; "It all fits!" Except it doesn't. Meanwhile, the creators are getting a drubbing for going against canon when they probably asked "How do you want me to handle this?", or "Do you want a straight adaption or can I change this bit?", or any of a dozen other things and when asked online and they bother to answer it's back to; "It all fits" with maybe a smiley face. After all the bunk about respecting the EU and making sure it all fit and all of us assuming they'd somehow stick this all in the last six months...we get a stealth databank change? Seriously? I'm not calling for anyone's head, but that just seems to fall under "Not Cool" for me, and being flip about it is what I have to do not to get seriously annoyed by that kind of treatment as a customer. -----signature----- Original Fiction & essays "Does God Limp?" in HOUSE UNAUTHORIZED http://www.smartpopbooks.com/allbooks/2007.html#house Now in German and Polish Editions! James A Gilmer
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Ulicus Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 5/12/08 10:46am Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in process - Date Edited: 5/12/08 11:36am (1 edits total) Edited By: Ulicus
	patchworkz7 posted: LFL continues to assure us that all is well, that EVERYTHING is going to fit into canon, and they MUST know that it won't. They must at least know that changing sizable chunks of character motivations, when characters did things, why characters do things, adding characters, adding battles, adding stories that overlap with the timeline of pre-existing stories will overrun the canon that already exists. As a customer, I resent being lied to. Heck, I'd like it more if they brought in some sort of "No-Prize" for this stuff (Marvel comics fans will know what I mean). They don't, instead they say NOTHING. We've all been wary of what's going to happen from day one of the announcement, and now instead of making any announcements at any level they just make a databank change. Why? Why not just treat us like the adults most of us are and inform us, in the interviews on the subject, on their own website, anywhere, that while they respect the EU and the novels and comics that they're all different animals and the reality of the franchise is that they just can't or won't make everything fit. Well said. I would love for Star Wars to have a fixed, immutable continuity. I would love for continuity to be "history"... but it's increasingly apparant that it simply isn't. LFL say they care about making "everything fit" when, quite clearly, they don't. Why can't they just say this? Maybe some people would drop their titles (I wouldn't, I read Star Wars first and foremost for the setting: read lightsabers) but it would show a great deal more intergrity and respect towards their fans if they would just admit... well... what they're clearly doing. At the moment, it almost appears to be a situation where you've got the Leland hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. Still, though I mentioned "Clone Wars canon go boom" in the Clone Wars thread... I don't think this is the worst thing that could happen. Squeezing the current Clone Wars canon into a shorter space of time is perfectly doable, I think... and hey, maybe Asajj was tempted back (after Obsession) into Dooku's fold with promises of Sith teachings? Maybe it'll be a plot point? (Uli dodges the thrown projectiles of people who want Obsession to be Asajj's last story) Edit: Urg. Mixed up "there" with "their". Urg. How is that even possible? -----signature----- This is an imaginary story... aren't they all supposed to fit together, though? An animated cartoon about Obi-Wan and Padawan Anakin would have made more sense. Recipient of Golden Ewok™ and Golden EwokTrooper™
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sabarte Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 5/12/08 10:57am Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in process
	Patch - yeah, there's the rub. At least 90% of fans would plot out a worse EU than what we got given the chance I don't know how they decide that. All I know is that in the Bantam era they seemed to know to choose Mara over Callista, give us I, Jedi over the JAT, give us a better Zsinj in the Wraith books than what we saw in COPL. It seemed like they had a better hold on what would work with fans and what wouldn't... (Even at the time, I don't think I knew of -anyone- who was a Daala fan. Though I knew Callistafen) Back to Clone Wars, I'm more concerned about the characterization than the exact timing of events. The timelines are in many cases -obvious- kludges anyway. For instance, we've been given five dates for the Battle of Galidraan ranging over a decade. But the jury's out on what they're doing to Asajj...it looks like her dynamic with Dooku and her dynamic with Kenobi have both been altered. And while Obsession was seriously on crack in places, I'm not sure that's a good thing.
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NJOfan215 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 5/12/08 10:59am Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in process
	I wouldn't cry if we lost jedi trial. Maybe Lucas can barrow grant morrison or geoff johns and have clone wars crisis. Hell maybe they can grab bendis and make this the start of the ultimate star wars universe. -----signature----- This council has zero tolerance for any sexual deviancy regarding our Jedi Knights.
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sabarte Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 5/12/08 11:00am Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in process
	In general, I'm thrilled with canon developments that make existing events make more sense. And with the Clone Wars, there's lots of room for improvement.
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Jango_Fettish Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 5/12/08 11:02am Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in process
	As I pointed out in the other thread, all of this additional stuff is under "The Movies" while the old CW continuity is in "EU" where it has always been. Basically, TOS is saying that the new details are the official events.
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SuperWatto Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 5/12/08 11:02am Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in process
	patch posted: Meanwhile, the creators are getting a drubbing for going against canon when they probably asked "How do you want me to handle this?", or "Do you want a straight adaption or can I change this bit?", or any of a dozen other things and when asked online and they bother to answer it's back to; "It all fits" with maybe a smiley face. Man! I been telling you the exact same thing a year ago, remember? -----signature----- Christmas destroyer
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Rogue_Follower Title: Manager: • Lit Registered: Nov '03	Date Posted: 5/12/08 11:18am Subject: RE: Continuity implosion in process - Date Edited: 5/12/08 11:19am (1 edits total) Edited By: Rogue_Follower
	Leland has clarified the T-canon ranking, over at TOS message boards. Tasty Taste posted: The clarify this point just a little bit further, The Clone Wars will not be considered Expanded Universe. They'll be ranked up there with The Movies. And... Tasty posted: T-canon in its entirety is not supposed to be considered part of the EU pillar, but part of the Lucas pillar. About what we expected, I think. So it's probably G > T > C > S > N.
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