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Topic:
What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
-Games
-LACWAC
-Lit Mod of Death
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
5/12 6:20pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
- Date Edited:
5/12 6:50pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
The2ndQuest
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Ah, I thought he was initially suggesting what could be taken from Batman to make the Big 3 relevant despite the multiple battles. The alternate universe notion wasn't suggested until his subsequent posts.
Someone has to be the new Big three eventually- regardless if you personally like them or not, we can't be stuck in time on the same characters forever- it's one of the biggest problems people had with the Bantam era and one of the major problems found with most spin-off book material: sticking to the familiar characters and being afraid to move forward.
If you were to watch the saga in chronological order when you first watched them, by that logic, Luke, Han and Leia should never have taken center stage themselves from Obi, Anakin and Padme.
There comes a point where if you want the story, to have any chance of truely succeeding like it's originator, where it must move on and evolve the story- sometimes you get a Picard and sometimes you get Rodimus Prime, but if you don't try, you will fail.
And yes, one day, even Batman will be replaced. It might be 20 or 40 years from now, but one day bruce Wayne will retire or be killed, and they'll have one of the former Robins or a Terry-analogue step up and take on the mantle ala Bucky and Cap. Of cours,e comics are more fluid like that so, unlike other franchises like SW, such a change may not be permanent, but the point remains that it is something that has to happen eventually.
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K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker?
Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
"If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/12 6:30pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
- Date Edited:
5/12 6:32pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Charlemagne19
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2nd Quest posted:
Ah, I thought he was initially suggesting what could be taken from Batman to make the Big 3 relevant despite the multiple battles. The alternate universe notion wasn't suggested until his subsequent posts.
That's certainly here too as well. Basically, it's interesting to talk about whether or not its perfectly possible to do alternate takes on existing characters like Skywalker in-continuity as well. A little experimentation wouldn't hurt I think.
The Dark Jedi Knight Returns for example. Dark Empire was a huge success because it went a place that normal Star Wars books didn't.
2nd Quest posted:
Someone has to be the new Big three eventually- regardless if you personally like them or not, we can't be stuck in time on the same characters forever- it's one of the biggest problems people had with the Bantam era and one of the major problems found with most spin-off book material: sticking to the familiar characters and being afraid to move forward.
Actually, I'd argue totally the opposite. New characters will never bring in New Star Wars fans. Basically, Luke Skywalker and Big Three fans will bring in fans to read Jacen Solo books but Jacen Solo fans are people who are almost uniformly made of former fans of the original movies. Ergo, it's a law of diminishing returns.
There will never be another Big Three unless you mean Obi Wan, Padme, and Anakin.
Ergo, the solution is to rely on the big faces and leave the secondary chaarcters where they belong.
In the background.
2nd Quest posted:
And yes, one day, even Batman will be replaced. It might be 20 or 40 years from now, but one day bruce Wayne will retire or be killed, and they'll have one of the former Robins or a Terry-analogue step up and take on the mantle ala Bucky and Cap. Of cours,e comics are more fluid like that so, unlike other franchises like SW, such a change may not be permanent, but the point remains that it is something that has to happen eventually.
If you think Bucky is a permanent replacement for Captain America Steve Rogers, I have a nice Upper-West Manhatten Penthouse for $300 a month to lease you. They've already replaced Batman once (Knightfall) and will do it again (Batman R.I.P) but these are just sales gimmicks and everyone knows it.
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Come see our alternate NJO: http://tinyurl.com/ycesjq Endor was like the Imperials being assaulted by a hundred Tolkien Dwarf Rangers with a body hair problem.
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
5/12 6:49pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Kaje posted:
What you're suggesting is either a complete EU reboot... or to retcon the Battle of Yavin to be set in 20 ABY.
I love it.
Anyway, allow me an emphatic hell no. To suggest that Star Wars should be a comic book continuity is to miss the point. Star Wars is not and has never been a comic book. It's a film series that tells an evolving story over two generations -- it's a saga. Batman is a serial comic that doesn't tell a story -- it tells of the adventures of characters. They're two completely different concepts. Batman is about Batman. It is, in conception, an endless series of stories about a guy in a suit fighting crime. That's not Star Wars. There's nothing in the film saga that says, "This is all about Luke Skywalker fighting random baddies." It's about characters in a setting. It's utterly missing the point to conflate Star Wars with a comic-book way of doing things. It's a monumental self-delusion about what Star Wars is. So you're attached to the characters of the original three films in the saga. OK. I like Aragorn and Frodo and Sam and the entire damn Fellowship. I'm not going to suggest that the Lord of the Rings should be The Continual Cyclical Adventures Of The Fellowship As They Deal With The Ring In Various Ways Based On Various Interpretations (Maybe There Can Be One Where The Orcs Are Ninjas!) Because Dammit I Just Can't Let Go Of The Characters. It's a saga with a main story and all kinds of other stories told before and after it, but time works like normal, and characters die and grow old (not necessarily in that order), and there's absolutely nothing in the films that should make anyone think Luke stays perpetually twenty years old continually fighting Darth Vader and putting him in jail and having him break out again and oh here comes a different origin story for Tarkin. As I said, colossal, monumental, logic-defying self-delusion about what Star Wars is.
If you want comic books, read a damn comic book. If you want Batman, read Batman. Don't insist that every single thing be the bloody X-men because that's what you grew up on. I love cheeseburgers, but I don't go to the Olive Garden and get the freaking chicken marsala and think, "God, this is great, but it really ought to be in some kind of burger form." Everything doesn't need to be forced into one box just because you happen to like that box a lot.
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"If Havac was a pinata, when you beat him all that would come out is win." - Uli
Recipient of Thrawn McEwok's Sexually Ambiguous Tusken Raider™ and a Special Golden Ewok™
"Reality doesn't care if you believe it." - Boba Fett
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/12 6:50pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Isn't Star Wars...
By nature...
A serialized adventure story?
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Come see our alternate NJO: http://tinyurl.com/ycesjq Endor was like the Imperials being assaulted by a hundred Tolkien Dwarf Rangers with a body hair problem.
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Kaje
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/12 6:58pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Not necessarily. Some people see it as a serialized adventure like Buck Rogers or Captain Proton. Others see it as epic fantasy like Lord of the Rings.
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Jedimarine
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
5/12 6:58pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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I think the big difference when faced with Batman vs. Star Wars is:
One is character driven.
The other is setting driven.
Batman would not be Batman without Batman.(And they've tried...eesh, they've tried.)
Star Wars can be star wars without even one previously known character...the elements of the universe make it work.
___________
So the question becomes...is it the intention to make the big 3 a character center that can be "reshuffled" every 40 years or so?
Then the name of the game is continuity reboot...and I don't know if that's where we want to go.
Batman's success has been based on the willingness to rework the character almost irreverently...something like Dark Knight Returns...it took guts...but it also took love for the character above all else.
I don't know if the big 3 stand that way...at least for me they don't.
The Star Wars Universe is the key for me...which makes it different.
I love Gotham too...but Gotham has never been as important as the Bat.
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
-Games
-LACWAC
-Lit Mod of Death
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
5/12 6:58pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
- Date Edited:
5/12 7:04pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
The2ndQuest
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Charlemagne19 posted:
If you think Bucky is a permanent replacement for Captain America Steve Rogers, I have a nice Upper-West Manhatten Penthouse for $300 a month to lease you.
That's why I stipulated "such a change may not be permanent" due to the fluid nature of comic continuity, unlike other franchises like SW.
And I know Rogers will be back by 2011- he's got a movie to promote, afterall 
Charlemagne19 posted:
2nd Quest posted:
Someone has to be the new Big three eventually- regardless if you personally like them or not, we can't be stuck in time on the same characters forever- it's one of the biggest problems people had with the Bantam era and one of the major problems found with most spin-off book material: sticking to the familiar characters and being afraid to move forward.
Actually, I'd argue totally the opposite. New characters will never bring in New Star Wars fans. Basically, Luke Skywalker and Big Three fans will bring in fans to read Jacen Solo books but Jacen Solo fans are people who are almost uniformly made of former fans of the original movies. Ergo, it's a law of diminishing returns.
The sales factor and readership factor are linked because of this problem- lower sales of non-movie character books are the result of distainful perceptions to spinoff product originating from the inability to move beyond the original characters- people think "oh, it'll just be retreading another adventure with the same characters", sort of the John McClain "how many times can the same person be put in similar situations" factor).
Look at it this way- SW is already established as a universe that is generational. Obi/Anakin/Padme are replaced by Luke/Han/Leia. IF Lucas had made these movies in chronological order and continued on to make a sequel trilogy, he would have jumped ahead again for Luke to take on the Obi-Wan elder role while a new set of heroes take center stage. That's what viewers would expect out of the movies. They'd expect the story to keep moving forward, not stay where it is.
And that's the problem with most spin-off novels- they aren't allowed to move forward creatively. Most are meant to be cash-ins to take advantge of people like you, who just want a taste of the same. They aren't generally allowed to become sequels, to take the next true step of the story forward because usually a book can't be the sequel to a movie- the company wants another movie to be a sequel to a movie. Creatively, they're stuck in neutral. And readers recognize this as a general concept, so they won't generally go reading the novels because they know they can't expect the story to progress. Even books that DO progress, they won't pick uop because they lump them all together into the same perception.
And what does that mostly leave left over? The people wanting more of the same, and thus the movie-character books sell more out of fear and ignorance (not of the more-of-the-same readers, as they know what they're getting into, but rather the people who would potentially want the non-movie character stories and increase those sales, but don't pick them up out of said ignorance due to the aforementioned perception).
-----signature-----
K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker?
Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
"If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
5/12 7:02pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Charlemagne19 posted:
Actually, I'd argue totally the opposite. New characters will never bring in New Star Wars fans. Basically, Luke Skywalker and Big Three fans will bring in fans to read Jacen Solo books but Jacen Solo fans are people who are almost uniformly made of former fans of the original movies. Ergo, it's a law of diminishing returns.
There will never be another Big Three unless you mean Obi Wan, Padme, and Anakin.
Ergo, the solution is to rely on the big faces and leave the secondary chaarcters where they belong.
In the background.
Eminently fallacious. Twenty years ago, you'd have been saying there never could have been another big three period. People would only care about Young Obi-Wan because of his appearance in the original trilogy. It's all about Luke Skywalker. You can sell some books about Obi-Wan, but you can't build a franchise on him.
Then we get three movies with Obi-Wan, and now he's capable of anchoring material nearly as well as Luke is. We get KOTOR, and no one gives a damn that there's not a single Skywalker in the whole thing. It sells anyway, and we get a whole comic spun off it. People are being brought into the franchise by the PT. People are being brought into the franchise by Legacy, for crying out loud. In thirty more years, when the movies are a distant memory, there are going to be people who were brought into the franchise by the live-action series. There are going to be people who were brought into the franchise by the theoretical multi-media Kane Skywalker blitz. There are going to be people who get sucked in by the Luke Skywalker Dies novel and stay because they like Ben. You can't say that people only read Jacen Solo books because of the movies; the movies have a level of saturation and penetration that's never going to go away. Everyone knows Star Wars. Everyone has the context of Luke and Darth Vader and Jedi and lightsabers to put it in. So people all know the films. But there's nothing there that says that people couldn't be drawn into the adventures of Ben Skywalker, of Cade Skywalker, of Revan, of Obi-Wan, of Qui-Gon, of Zayne Carrick. Nothing.
Again, it's colossal self-delusion. "I only care about Luke, ergo no one really cares about anything but Luke. I only care about the Big Three, so Star Wars can only be about the Big Three. KOTOR sells like hotcakes, but that's not real reality, because it contradicts my point."
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Recipient of Thrawn McEwok's Sexually Ambiguous Tusken Raider™ and a Special Golden Ewok™
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/12 7:21pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Jedi Marine posted:
Star Wars can be star wars without even one previously known character...the elements of the universe make it work.
For me, it's character based almost as much as the setting. I like the KOTOR games, Kyle Katarn, Zayne Carrick, Cade, Rogue Squadron, and the Tales of the Jedi stuff but the simple fact is that they've given me characters that I enjoy. Jedi vs. Sith and Ruins of Dantooine don't resonate with me just because they're going to regurgitate stuff that looks pretty.
Zayne Carrick works because he's Luke Skywalker if Luke Skywalker was in the situation of the Count of Monte Cristo.
Awesome premise. However, Zayne and Corran Horn plus plenty of other characters also reimagined Luke Skywalkers. Not acknowledging that is part of their success is disingenous to the original.
2ndQuest posted:
And what does that mostly leave left over? The people wanting more of the same, and thus the movie-character books sell more out of fear and ignorance (not of the more-of-the-same readers, as they know what they're getting into, but rather the people who would potentially want the non-movie character stories and increase those sales, but don't pick them up out of said ignorance due to the aforementioned perception).
Of course I want more of the same. If I buy a Halo novel, I damn well want the Master Chief and Halo because it says Halo on the front of it. I work hard at the bank to earn the money I spend on my entertainment and if something advertises Star Wars then I want it to look, smell, and taste like Star Wars.
Frankly, a lot of Star Wars gets by simply by the fact that even day old pizza is good re-heated if it was good pizza to begin with. Luke Skywalker was my role-model growing up and is one of the greatest fictional characters of all time. He's internationally recognizable star that's known the world over because he was awesome.
Part of what annoys me with the NJO and LOTF era is the simple fact that while Jacen/Jaina/Ben/Anakin are okay characters....they're not as good. They will never be as interesting as Luke Skywalker and company so keep trying to bring them to the spotlight won't help the fact they're still fundamentally shallow characters compared to the richness of the original.
I read lots of science fiction and fantasy, some extremely original, and take a lot of heat for reading licensed genre fiction in addition to it. However, if you're going to treat the licensed material with respect then you already start with something golden to begin with.
Havac posted:
Eminently fallacious. Twenty years ago, you'd have been saying there never could have been another big three period. People would only care about Young Obi-Wan because of his appearance in the original trilogy. It's all about Luke Skywalker. You can sell some books about Obi-Wan, but you can't build a franchise on him.
Very well, restated, they'll never be another Big Three as long as Lucas isn't producing continent wide $100 million movies that he advertises across the planet that are successful in large part because the movies they're Prequels to are the literally most successful movie franchise of all time with the possible exception fo James Bond.
Havac posted:
Again, it's colossal self-delusion. "I only care about Luke, ergo no one really cares about anything but Luke. I only care about the Big Three, so Star Wars can only be about the Big Three. KOTOR sells like hotcakes, but that's not real reality, because it contradicts my point."
I love Zayne Carrick but its selling on the Brand Name of Star Wars, the Brand name of KOTOR and the fact it reads well.
Pretty much the whole of your point is wrong.
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
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-LACWAC
-Lit Mod of Death
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
5/12 7:27pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Isn't the fact that KOTOR is in itself a Brand Name a flaw in your argument?
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Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
"If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/12 7:29pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
- Date Edited:
5/12 7:29pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Charlemagne19
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The2ndQuest posted:
Isn't the fact that KOTOR is in itself a Brand Name a flaw in your argument?
How?
The argument isn't that good writing, high production values, and a decent starting point can produce modest success compared to Star Wars' other titles.
It's that the Big Three are worthwhile characters who deserve to be continuously in print since they made the Star Wars franchise and moving away from them sacrifices something essential.
The fact I believe we'll never see the kind of success for Star Wars' other titles as Luke Skywalker doesn't really enter into it.
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
5/12 7:29pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Charlemagne19 posted:
I love Zayne Carrick but its selling on the Brand Name of Star Wars, the Brand name of KOTOR and the fact it reads well.
Pretty much the whole of your point is wrong.
So you admit that your point is entirely wrong, and tell me that means I'm wrong?
If material is able to sell because it has Star Wars and KOTOR (a tag that has nothing to do with Luke Skywalker whatsoever) on it and it's good product, then how the ever-loving hell does that mean that Star Wars needs Luke Skywalker to be successful?
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Recipient of Thrawn McEwok's Sexually Ambiguous Tusken Raider™ and a Special Golden Ewok™
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/12 7:33pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Havac posted:
So you admit that your point is entirely wrong, and tell me that means I'm wrong?
If material is able to sell because it has Star Wars and KOTOR (a tag that has nothing to do with Luke Skywalker whatsoever) on it and it's good product, then how the ever-loving hell does that mean that Star Wars needs Luke Skywalker to be successful?
Actually, Havac, I'm not sure what your point is.
You seem to be saying "But Zayne Carrick is good and he sells issues!"
Yeah, so?
He'll never be as big as Luke Skywalker, which you aren't even arguing. You're just pointing at it.
I'm saying "No Band will ever be as Big as the Beatles."
You're going "But Back Street Boys can sell records too."
It's an irrelevant point.
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Kaje
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/12 7:33pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Charlemagne19 posted:
The fact I believe we'll never see the kind of success for Star Wars' other titles as Luke Skywalker doesn't really enter into it.
Legacy and KotOR outsell Rebellion.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/12 7:34pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
- Date Edited:
5/12 7:35pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Charlemagne19
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Kaje posted:
Charlemagne19 posted:
The fact I believe we'll never see the kind of success for Star Wars' other titles as Luke Skywalker doesn't really enter into it.
Legacy and KotOR outsell Rebellion.
Yeah, it'd be nice to have a Luke Skywalker comic.
I usually pick up Deena Shann's comic because of Luke though.
It's hard to argue Rebellion is a Luke Skywalker comic given the first arc didn't have him in it.
FYI--- I know you're all probably ready to argue this, but I don't really care to dispute the point. So I'm dropping this. I'm here to talk about how we can use comic continuity and other methods of reinvention to make the Big Three successful again. What else is successful isn't really interesting to me.
There's enough room for Rogue Squadron and KOTOR but if I had to choose, yes, Luke all the time.
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