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Topic:
What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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NJOfan215
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
5/12 7:52pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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What i said would work fine.
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
-Games
-LACWAC
-Lit Mod of Death
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
5/12 7:55pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
- Date Edited:
5/12 7:55pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
The2ndQuest
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ZanderSolo posted:
Im kinda new to the comics(started with Legacy/Kotor), but i was under the impression that:
Republic->Empire->Rebellion.
I thought they ran into each other. Yes no maybe?
Star Wars (ongoing) ran for about 3 or 4 years until Dark Horse launched a second ongoing, Empire. the first ongoing was then retitled Republic to better distinguish the two. Republic became Dark Times and Empire became Rebellion.
EDIT- too slow
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patchworkz7
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
5/12 8:11pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
- Date Edited:
5/12 8:19pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
patchworkz7
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Havac posted:
Can you please stop continually moving the goalposts?
How the hell do you expect him to win the argument?
Seriously, though, I'm actually halfway with Charles on this. Well, on one of his arguments. I'm not sure which one we're currently arguing, but backing up to the idea that not EVERY animated series or tie-in would have to be a part of the EU, I can agree with that.
If LFL wanted to do a TEEN TITANS GO! style remix of the original story (PT or OT), then I have nothing against that idea.
I think there's two large and seperate arguments here:
1) To further the brand, not everything has to tie back into the canonical history of the universe and spin-offs and new series and stories can be told in other styles over the years to push the brand into new areas using the characters that SW has been known for and that are the largest characters. These spin-offs could have comic books of their own, novels, bedsheets, ceral, whatever, and it would not be part of the "true history" of the EU, but alternative realities.
2) The "reality" of the EU is periodically reset every ten years, the story being reset back to whatever point it makes sense to reset it to at that point to tell new stories or retell old stories with the same characters (see: Crisis on Infinite Earths, Zero Hour, Inifinate Crisis, Crisis in Grant Morrison's Bongwater, etc). There is no solid EU, and the brand is king.
The first one, while not strictly from the comic book world, is something I don't mind, but even not being in the same time zone as Havac in terms of wanting an inclusionist universe, I think he's dead-on with the second idea just being bad.
Also, the thing about comic books is that sales suck right now. They've only survived because the movie versions have saved them. Marvel was almost completely bankrupt and six months from shutting doors when Spider-Man dropped big bucks and their shares went back up through the roof.
So, while there are parts to your suggestion I can agree with, I'm not sure you made a solid argument for exactly what you want (which is one of the more frustrating things about the thread, since there's some decent ideas there) and a larger problem is that you really are ignoring the sales on movies, comics, books, and games that have NOTHING to do with the Big Three, even though those characters popularized the setting, the brand is the SETTING as much as the characters.
A MUCH better example would be X-Men, where the setting (a world that hates and fears those who are different and powered) both serves and is served by the characters.
EDIT:
Charles posted:
What can the marketers and writers learn from Batman and the Comic Industry to making Fresh Stories about Luke and Company?
Only Luke and company? Because Batman has launched a "family" of titles that at times have sold more than the core book. Also, as said, the comic book industry is in dire straights financially, and only the attention of Hollywood has kept many companies and frnachises going.
I'm sorry, I just don't think the premise of the question is very well stated, unless you have a thesis to put forward to make this make sense.
As others have said; SW is a whole different animal from Batman and many of the comic book franchises. A good part of the reason they've been doing well right now is exactly what will get people in to see the CW cartoon; nostalgia. The other thing is that it isn't the comic books that are doing well, it's the movies, and even MORE to the point, it's the GOOD MOVIES that are doing well. IRON MAN was a hit that cross boundries, so if there's one clue to take away, it's to cross-over to the non-SW audience.
I think the marketers already KNOW that though.
Also, production of hype with things like killing Captain America or negating Spider-Man's marriage, but all that is marketer's wank and flies precisely in the face of what SW is known for, which is a story where the characters age, die, stay dead, get married, have kids, etc, although not in that order.
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Alion_Sangre
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
5/12 8:15pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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I'll chime in here. We certainly don't need constant reboots.
What attracts me to Star Wars as opposed to other science fantasy is that it is a universe. We get the distinct sense that it's a fully populated galaxy that keeps functioning when the Big Three aren't onscreen and will outlast them. That adds a vibrancy and a weight of history to it. Rebellion has been great in adding to the lore of the Big Three in their glory days, but eventually I think it enhances their impact to have them leave a great legacy rather than simply function as ageless warriors. I would have much preferred to see the Big Three get some well-earned rest and hand down the torch to a worthy new generation instead of being left broken-hearted in a galaxy that seems to forget what they fought for.
Now, if we'd jumped straight from NJO to the Legacy comics, or perhaps an LoTF where Jacen didn't have 3-4 outings as a believable and interesting character before going ape enough to embarrass Grandpa Vader, maybe it would have been an improvement. Perhaps what was needed was a cue from Batman about how to write a proper hero/villain relationship, although they could have gotten that by going back to the basics laid down in the OT and better days of the EU.
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of War Against the Aztecs
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
5/12 8:18pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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dizfactor posted:
Charlemagne19 posted:
dizfactor posted:
Crisis isn't fixed in 1985. Crisis slides forward at a lag behind the current day - Crisis now occurred 13 years prior to present, or 1994.
I stand corrected.
For awhile, I thought it didn't occur in temporal time since Earth and history was rebooted. It's hard to have a Crisis when Supergirl never existed.
The actual events of Crisis never happened in the surviving timeline, but some version of them happened. Barry Allen existed and died saving the universe, etc - it just didn't happen the same way.
And this is precisely why we should just let Star Wars have a normal, perfectly linear continuity.
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patchworkz7
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
5/12 8:26pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Havac posted:
And this is precisely why we should just let Star Wars have a normal, perfectly linear continuity.
Yeah. I really don't want to sit through SW having a Crisis on Infinite Earths, Zero Hour, Final Night, Infinite Crisis, Armageddon 2001, 52, Countdown, and Final Crisis just to get back to a linear continuity that includes everything (which is essentially what is going on, except 52 broke everything up and made it so that there were 52 "realities" to explain why there were so many alternate histories and so on).
Seriously, I'd rather go with the Marvel version which is to just nod, wink, and pretend we don't notice the sliding timescale.
Actually, I'd rather stick with Havac and have a linear continuity.
The success of the X-Wing novels, Republic Commando, KoToR, and more have all shown that SW as a brand is about more than the "Big Three". Heck, according to GL the "Big Three" aren't even what SW is about, since he says he considers it to be about the rise and fall of Vader (grain of salt time, but there you go).
The setting long ago surpassed the characters, and that opens up a LOT of territory for the brand, if it's willing to use it.
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of War Against the Aztecs
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
5/12 8:29pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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patchworkz7 posted:
The success of the X-Wing novels, Republic Commando, KoToR, and more have all shown that SW as a brand is about more than the "Big Three". Heck, according to GL the "Big Three" aren't even what SW is about, since he says he considers it to be about the rise and fall of Vader (grain of salt time, but there you go).
The setting long ago surpassed the characters, and that opens up a LOT of territory for the brand, if it's willing to use it.
Exactly.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/12 8:44pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
- Date Edited:
5/12 8:50pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Charlemagne19
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patchworkz posted:
How the hell do you expect him to win the argument?
Actually, I was more worried about getting involved in an argument of Big Three vs. New Characters.
Which I didn't want.
And honestly, I don't think continuity is the Be End All of All Things. I think it works very well in the mediums it has.
However, I think that essentially believing you can keep going forward and backwards indefinitely is a bit foolish.
Justice League is a perfect example of the Batman success.
Justice League-Superman-Batman-Batman Begins form a completely self contained timeline that ends.
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
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-Lit Mod of Death
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
5/12 9:12pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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It only ended because Cartoon Network kept screwing with the schedule and wanted to push The Batman, Legion of Superheroes, etc on kids- it should have kept going because it was still kicking ass at the end. 
And I think you need to consider that continuity is a very important factor in distinguishing franchises from when another. Anotehr factor in the disdain towards spin-off material (tied to the aforementioned inability to move forward) is that the vast majority aren't considered canon, so even those that do try to progress the characters or universe have their efforts "not counting" when they're contradicted by a subsequent movie or TV episode. They are brief entertainment, but they don't fulfill the need of the reader to learn more about that world and where it's going.
Now, to those that do have some kind of continuity with their originator, they are instantly distinguished from amongst the background noise- here are stories that actually contribute to the actual fictional history and events the reader enjoys and possibly even influence those originating sources subsequent installments. These are rare, but always sell more and are better respected by their fandoms.
So, on one hand, you have absolute-canon EU material like that of Babylon 5, Buffy & (I believe) Halo. On the other, absolutely-not-canon EU material like Star Trek.
Presently, SW inhabits somewhere in the middle- it's an official rendition of events, though not at the same absolute level of the films, nor is it outright disowned like Trek.
Remove the continuity and you greatly diminish the legitimacy of (and interest in reading) the EU- it becomes like all the others, and to take a Batmanesque "new take every so often" approach unfortunately requires that to happen. More harm than good is done in that scenario, especially in the sales arena- there's a (ok, several) reason SW books stay in print and hit best seller lists where books like Trek are out of print in less than year.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/12 9:34pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Actually, marketing new universes are hardly the only ways to handle it.
Other ways would be.
* New Character takes on Luke.
* Making him more relevant to current audiences.
* Releasing Animated Luke Skywalker films.
(You'd clearly need to get someone who does voice work for cartoons to do him.
For fun, I say Hayden Christensen for luke and Mark Hamill for Darth Vader)
* More books set during the height of his reign.
* More attempts to multimedia branch out
Again, all lessons from Batman
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patchworkz7
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
5/12 10:03pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Charlemagne19 posted:
Again, all lessons from Batman
Uhhh...how?
None of those are unique to Batman at all.
Basically, you want more stories, in any medium, starring Luke Skywalker, and you want them to be good.
If you really wanted to look at what LFL could learn from comic books you'd be looking at cross-overs, events, hyping things to the mainstream public, and more...except LFL pretty much already DOES that. Oh, wait, shock deaths! That's something that comic books do a lot of! Shock deaths that can be hyped in mainstream press outlets to get attention on the product! LFL has NEVER thought of that before!
I really don't think this has anything to do with comic books, but with your ideas on how to expand the brand and get more Luke Skywalker stories, which is fine, but still...nada to do with comic books or Batman.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/12 10:29pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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patchworkz7 posted:
Uhhh...how?
None of those are unique to Batman at all.
No.
patchworkz7 posted:
Basically, you want more stories, in any medium, starring Luke Skywalker, and you want them to be good.
Close enough,
patchworkz7 posted:
If you really wanted to look at what LFL could learn from comic books you'd be looking at cross-overs, events, hyping things to the mainstream public, and more...except LFL pretty much already DOES that. Oh, wait, shock deaths! That's something that comic books do a lot of! Shock deaths that can be hyped in mainstream press outlets to get attention on the product! LFL has NEVER thought of that before!
I really don't think this has anything to do with comic books, but with your ideas on how to expand the brand and get more Luke Skywalker stories, which is fine, but still...nada to do with comic books or Batman.
Yes, the Batman thing was meant to inspire people to use Comic Book metaphors and rely on a mutually known figure of pop culture to help long term sustainability.
Am I taking this conversation too serious or not seriously enough?
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patchworkz7
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
5/12 10:32pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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It has occurred to me that I'm not being totally fair. There is one very LARGE lesson that SW can learn from comics.
Creative teams.
Divide the universe up into creative teams of editors, writers, etc, and have them concentrate on where the story needs to go. Stop making it up on the fly. Make it a whole vibrant universe that shows a glue that holds the story together instead of the choppy feel of "lets jump another 10 years!".
Let the story play itself out and use certain authors when they are needed to tell certain parts of the story. Example: Karen Traviss likes Mandos and they sell well under her. She can have her Mando stories, either in the past or present, but she essentially gets to tell that story.
John Ostrander gets to lay down the law on LEGACY and how it comes about.
Pick someone who is considered a good writer of Han and Leia and do the same.
Luke, rinse and repeat.
If writers don't want to stick around, then that's part of why the editors are there, to make sure that we don't have jarring changes in direction.
And implement a strong editorial team at LFL that has an eye on the direction of ALL products in every timeline and has final approval and say and keeps things on an even heading.
So, strong editorial hand and creative teams that handle certain areas of the story. While it's not a 1:1 ratio between novels and comics, those are two ideas that SW could borrow from comics that I don't see them implementing right now. Also, far range planning. Have the next event ready to go when one series ends, and make it all flow together.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/12 10:41pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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I would agree with this.
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sabarte
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
5/12 10:41pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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I agree we need more consistency, but I'm....not sure plotting by committee is the best way to go about it. It may totally be an illusion, but it feels in the past that authors had a bit more control over the plots of their stories and they overall made more sense when they were writing self-contained books and trilogies than when there's a giant x-book series with an overplot they need to adhere to.
Though, OK, some didn't make much sense even then! 
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