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Topic:
What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 5:14am
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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So what?
The Iliad was a reimagined Gilgamesh of sorts.
There's always an inspiration; that doesn't mean you can't improve upon it.
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The_Four_Dot_Elipsis
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
5/13 5:17am
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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SuperWatto posted:
So what?
The Iliad was a reimagined Gilgamesh of sorts.
There's always an inspiration; that doesn't mean you can't improve upon it.
True. The Police vastly improved "Don't Stand So Close To Me" with the 86 cover, IMO.
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 5:22am
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Hmmm... Gotta disagree with you there.
A better example would be 'Bring On The Night'!
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/13 7:17am
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Or Cash's cover of "Hurt". So good that people think he wrote it! 
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ZanderSolo
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
5/13 7:18am
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Use more weapons.
If Jedi carried Batarangs, how awesome would that be.
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Quiet_Mandalorian
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
5/13 7:41am
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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SuperWatto posted:
Not being a native English speaker, I flinch at every comparison between Star Wars and superheroes. Doesn't anybody here know any European comics?
Never really cared much for them, apart from Tintin and Asterix.
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The hour when death is like a light and blood is like a rose,
You have never loved your friends, my friends, as I shall love my foes.
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rumsmuggler
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 7:42am
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Memory cloth Jedi robes would come in handy as well. And the Jedi already have airspeeder tech ala batman beyond's flying batmobile. 
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"Why is the rum always gone?"
Retcons = making the dumb stuff look even dumber.
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 8:24am
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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QM posted:
Never really cared much for them, apart from Tintin and Asterix.
Feh.
It's only because Sillage and the Incal don't have message boards that I'm on here!
Actually: I really think that European comics overall have a much more coherent continuity than American comics, if only for the simple reason that there's less people working on a title.
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ezekiel22x
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/13 9:10am
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
- Date Edited:
5/13 9:11am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
ezekiel22x
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It's all in the titles for me. Batman is about Batman - a guy who dresses up, fights crime, and repeats the process. Yeah, I love the relentlessness of The Dark Knight Returns, but the gritty themes found within are dependent on the title character.
Star Wars has no title character. To me it's about characters caught up in galactic warfare, and in the best stories the overt depictions of warfare are secondary to inner explorations of self-identity as it relates to outside and potentially overwhelming philosophical forces. In other words, the Big Three are dependent on the overall story and universe more than the overall story and universe are dependent on the Big Three.
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Quiet_Mandalorian
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
5/13 9:37am
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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SuperWatto posted:
Feh.
It's only because Sillage and the Incal don't have message boards that I'm on here!
I'm beginning to get a better grasp of why we so rarely agree on anything... 
SuperWatto posted:
Actually: I really think that European comics overall have a much more coherent continuity than American comics, if only for the simple reason that there's less people working on a title.
That would only seem logical. Too many cooks, and all that sort of thing.
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The hour when death is like a light and blood is like a rose,
You have never loved your friends, my friends, as I shall love my foes.
G.K. Chesterton
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 9:58am
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Hey, FWIW, I love Asterix and Tintin as well - got them all - but they're a bit... you know... old.
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Quiet_Mandalorian
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
5/13 10:53am
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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SuperWatto posted:
Hey, FWIW, I love Asterix and Tintin as well - got them all - but they're a bit... you know... old.
Bah! Asterix and Tintin never get old. 
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The hour when death is like a light and blood is like a rose,
You have never loved your friends, my friends, as I shall love my foes.
G.K. Chesterton
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HedecGa
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
5/13 1:04pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
- Date Edited:
5/13 1:05pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
HedecGa
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2ndQuest posted:
So, on one hand, you have absolute-canon EU material like that of Babylon 5, Buffy & (I believe) Halo.
Whatever! 
There were countless books and comics that were immediately thrown out the window when Joss decided to "grace us" with his "almighty presence" and do the "only official canon EU" of Buffy Season Eight.
I wasted perfectly good money on the Spike & Dru book about the other Slayer they killed--which was totally ignored in the series--and the very tasty DH comics that chronicled Buffy's journey from the movie to the series which Whedon also hiked a leg on. Years of collecting the "continuing adventures" of Buffy and Co. and POOF, all made obsolete. *grumble*
Okay, that was off-topic, but I had to get that off my chest. If SW pulls something like that...well. I just pray they don't. Seriously. I've got WAAAAY more invested in SW than I ever did on Buffy.
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
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-Lit Mod of Death
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 1:22pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Whoops, sorry, I didn't mean to imply all Buffy has always been that way- I was referring specifically to Buffy Season 8, Angel: After the Fall, etc.
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beccatoria
Title: 181st Imperial Discussion Group host
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
5/13 1:22pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
- Date Edited:
5/13 1:26pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
beccatoria
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Quiet_Mandalorian posted:
SuperWatto posted:
Hey, FWIW, I love Asterix and Tintin as well - got them all - but they're a bit... you know... old.
Bah! Asterix and Tintin never get old.
I LOVED Asterix! It was just the best.
Tintin, though, creeped me right out. I could not tell you any logical reason as to why, but he seemed the sort of fellow I might have to run away from if he offered me sweets and asked me to get into his car.
Regarding the topic of the thread, I think that using Batman as any sort of model for the continuation of the EU would require a fundamental change to the nature of canon and the current goal of creating a developing and coherent and vaguely logical linear narrative. I would also require changing the format of the stories themselves as told within the fictional universe.
I remain skeptical that either would be an improvement.
There are two reasons for this.
Firstly, making the Big Three constantly and forever the centre of the franchise would make the chances of seeing the next generation develop much slimmer, and see them in more supporting roles. I admit that I may not be a typical fan, but I actively look forward to the day when Jaina and Ben are the main characters in the novels. I also understand that monetarily, Jaina Solo and Ben Skywalker do not have anything like the name recognition of Han Solo and Luke Skywalker. I'm not trying to say that my reaction is representative, but I can only give a reaction from my own perspective.
And this isn't something that is limited to Star Wars. I'm a sequel fan. I like things to develop. When I go see a sequel, I actually don't want more of the same, I want development, change, new stuff. When I got to see Spider-man 2, sure I go see it because I liked Spider-man 1. Sure I want to see Spider-man fight Doc Ock. But I also want to find out what's happened to Peter Parker and Aunt Em and MJ and the world. I want to see development: I want a sense the world is moving forwards. I'm often in it for character development as much, if not more, than action. So when I go to see the new Batman movie, I will want to know what's happening with Bruce Wayne on a personal level, and I will want him to end the film in a different place from his starting point.
In the X-Files, the Monster of the Week episodes were all right, but it was the Mythology that kept me coming back for more.
I never loved ST: TNG half as much as DS9 because the first one gave me adventures that never left any lasting impressions except for the odd big "event" while the second one gave me an over-arching narrative. People changed, got married, died, went to war, became better, and worse individuals.
I'd argue that with the rise of more narrative and plot-oriented television, and the rise of more a more character-based and sequel-prone movie industry re: Superheroes and fantasy films, perhaps I'm not alone?
The counter-argument being: character development for Bruce Wayne not his son, right?
Well, I'll try to tackle that. Television shows are increasingly less episodic and more arc-ish, but one of the problems there is that it's very hard for new fans to get into them at later dates. They have too much backstory. People don't understand what's going on and can't be bothered. The downside to character development is, you have to know the history.
This becomes a problem within a three-movie run or a seven-year TV show, but what about the EU? It suffers that to an extreme. It is now a 17-year run across over a dozen different types of series, if we consider it to have been in more-or-less continuous production since TTT.
And...stepping back from the generalisations and talking only about myself for a moment...I'm a sequel fan. I love to know what happens next. With that in mind I can't think of anything worse than being stuck with the Big Three as never-endingly middle-aged-at-worse. I'd feel trapped by the timeline and bored by it. I'll occasionally pick up a copy of Superman but I'm not a regular reader because I get bored of nothing ever happening, or having to wait three years for his life to move forward the smallest amount. So I'll pick up an issue if I hear it's really good, or something big happens, but...short of that, it's not the kind of franchise or storytelling that appeals to me.
Again, I might be incorrect, but since the EU has had coherent and chronologically realistic continuity for a very long time, perhaps people are following it because it is the sort of franchise and storytelling that appeals to them? The same way it would be wrong to assume that what all Batman readers really want is for Bruce Wayne to actually grow old and get married and pass on his mantle to a protege?
LFL are in some sort of Catch-22 here. The more complex the EU gets the harder it is to introduce new fans. If they simplify the continuity, they'll annoy the established fans, who may have actually come here in part because it offers such an epic and wide-ranging story. I know I did. I know that when I first picked up a copy of TTT at an adopted Uncle's suggestion, what made my eyes go round wasn't, "More adventures!" but "What happens NEXT!"
But I understand sales are good as they are. Perhaps we don't need to learn anything from Batman.
I suppose ultimately I think this:
1) I'm not sure how to solve the problem of potentially losing fans if the EU continues to get more complex, which doesn't currently seem to be affecting the sales, but could in future. Moving away from Luke Skywalker I can see as an issue to attracting new fans more than as an issue to keeping current fans.
2) I have no way of knowing whether you're right and what most people want is Star Wars Batman style, but speaking only for myself, if Star Wars started learning the things you suggest from Batman, I think my interest in it would crash very quickly and I might stop buying most of the stuff published.
3) Rebellion is proving that there's always space for more Luke adventures regardless of what else is going on without the need for either Comics Continuity or Comics Aging.
4) Pretty much the only thing I can think of learning from Batman that would be beneficial is the notion that there could be more Infinities series. Those are really fun.
And, um, yeah, that's what I think!
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