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Topic:
What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Quiet_Mandalorian
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
5/13 1:51pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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beccatoria posted:
I LOVED Asterix! It was just the best.
Tintin, though, creeped me right out. I could not tell you any logical reason as to why, but he seemed the sort of fellow I might have to run away from if he offered me sweets and asked me to get into his car.
Tintin wouldn't ask you to get into his car (he customarily drives a motorcycle anyway) though. He'd politely commandeer your car while chasing down drug runners/slavers/conspirators/terrorists and then (through no fault of his own) drive it into a ravine 20 miles down the road. 
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The hour when death is like a light and blood is like a rose,
You have never loved your friends, my friends, as I shall love my foes.
G.K. Chesterton
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 1:58pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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The question needs to be asked...
What can the Big Three learn from Tintin?
... Answer: die when their creator dies.
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Trandoshan flatcakes!
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Dawud786
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
5/13 3:40pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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I think, in terms of the books and comics... the EU desperately needs to let Han, Luke and Leia retire. Give them one last hurrah where all is well in the galaxy at the end and their lives haven't be irrevocably torn asunder AND they don't look like complete kriffing idiots for most of that last hurrah. That's the only reason I want to see more from them after LOTF, because LOTF HURT their characters so badly.
I, would, however, love to see an Animated Universe take on our favorite EU stories. I want an animated Thrawn, DE, adn maybe even JAT if it's mixed with I, Jedi to a healthy degree giving us the best of both those stories. I'd like to see a good visual representation of the NJO too, and in an Animated Universe we could cut through alot of the crap and only give us the best parts that are absolutely necessary to the storyline.
I'd even give a sort of "Ultimate Star Wars" a chance. We're practically getting all of those with the Clone Wars anyways.
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Grey1
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 4:07pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Batman proved that spin-offs without the main character can be really great. We got the Catwoman movie, after all.
*runs away*
*sneaks back into the thread*
I think we've already got the "multiple continuities" situation, but most people don't want to accept it. I'm still cringing from back when the first person told me Glove Of Darth Vader had made it into continuity. And I'll restate my interested in an animated "The Civil War" series that ignores everything we know from between eps 4 and 5.
We have multiple depictions of what Luke does when he's not in the movies. We have the Marvel series, we have the early novels (which more or less were the foundation of the monster that is called EU), we have the GODV kiddie novels. Now with Clone Wars, we'll have "literary continuity" with comic books and novels, and we'll have "moving visual continuity" with two tv series. They overlap, but in the end, it's real-life-people being creative with different takes on the same premise. Not people who have been chosen to copy down the next chapters from the Journal of the Whills that crashed into Lucas' backyard.
And as much as I liked the YJK generation and had hoped for a future in which Luke really only did Yoda-like wisecracks, I think that the only thing that aleinated the big three from the movie characters were authors that actually didn't want to write about the big three. I'm not on an offense here, but if you think about it - KJA has Kyp as a new Luke, Stackpole has Corran as a new Luke, Zahn has Mara Jade as someone who knows better, Traviss is against Jedi dynasties and the Solo family, X-Wing has Wedge as a stand-in for Luke and Han... and it really started when Zahn had to make Luke smaller in HTTE so C'Baoth could have as much impact as he had. And with an ongoing continuity, everything stays in. It even gets acknowledged when Zahn finally has Mara say that Luke has been "weird" for years - now it's set in stone. So the truth is, everyone wants to write SW, but loads of people don't actually want to write another person's SW. They want their own SW. [And I have to admit, Kyle Katarn only became so big for me because Jedi Knight played as an "alternative movie" - Luke's appearance in the graphic novels kills the impact of the story.]
In the end, I think it all comes down to the question that this survey proposed - will *enough* people read SW without the movie crew as we know it? I'm really astonished to see implied that there are people who buy LOTF novels because they feel so connected to the movies, but don't go for other novels because they don't recognize the characters as interesting. I mean, if you watched the three original movies and don't care that much about the novels, how would you possibly be interested in a free Betrayal e-book? Why would you start to read at a point when nothing is as you liked it on the screen? To me, the ongoing novel series is something that's only for those who continued reading for over 15 years.
I think Mindor will show us if an all-out-movie-Luke novel will really be the ultimate SW. If it really turns out that way, I only hope somebody will come along to do an all-out-movie-Han novel. Then we could see if Harrison Ford wouldn't be an even bigger seller than Mark Hamill. Which leads me to the question... what can Han Solo learn from Firefly? And what can the audience learn?
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Jacen had learned that one can meet the Universe [...] with fear, or with hatred, or with despair.
Or one can choose to meet it with love.
Jacen had chosen.
But still, he was astonished to discover that the Universe could love him back.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 4:09pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Kaje posted:
Charlemagne19 posted:
Star Wars is a reimagined Flash Gordon.
To some people. I still maintain that SW is epic fantasy, not a serial adventure space opera.
That assumes one is not without the other. Flash Gordon (I own reprints of the original) is hardly something to be ashamed of. It's an epic story about overthrowing a Fascist Dictatorship that has elements of Robin Hood, Ben-Hur, and Jules Verne thrown in together.
Besides, I find it silly that people would say comic books are a poor medium to draw from when Darth Vader's outfit is partially based on Doctor Doom.
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Come see our alternate NJO: http://tinyurl.com/ycesjq Endor was like the Imperials being assaulted by a hundred Tolkien Dwarf Rangers with a body hair problem.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 4:15pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Grey1 posted:
And as much as I liked the YJK generation and had hoped for a future in which Luke really only did Yoda-like wisecracks, I think that the only thing that aleinated the big three from the movie characters were authors that actually didn't want to write about the big three. I'm not on an offense here, but if you think about it - KJA has Kyp as a new Luke, Stackpole has Corran as a new Luke, Zahn has Mara Jade as someone who knows better, Traviss is against Jedi dynasties and the Solo family, X-Wing has Wedge as a stand-in for Luke and Han... and it really started when Zahn had to make Luke smaller in HTTE so C'Baoth could have as much impact as he had. And with an ongoing continuity, everything stays in.
It even gets acknowledged when Zahn finally has Mara say that Luke has been "weird" for years - now it's set in stone. So the truth is, everyone wants to write SW, but loads of people don't actually want to write another person's SW. They want their own SW. [And I have to admit, Kyle Katarn only became so big for me because Jedi Knight played as an "alternative movie" - Luke's appearance in the graphic novels kills the impact of the story.]
I totally agree with everything here.
Grey1 posted:
In the end, I think it all comes down to the question that this survey proposed - will *enough* people read SW without the movie crew as we know it? I'm really astonished to see implied that there are people who buy LOTF novels because they feel so connected to the movies, but don't go for other novels because they don't recognize the characters as interesting. I mean, if you watched the three original movies and don't care that much about the novels, how would you possibly be interested in a free Betrayal e-book? Why would you start to read at a point when nothing is as you liked it on the screen? To me, the ongoing novel series is something that's only for those who continued reading for over 15 years.
I confess, I actually believe that part of my desire for the Big 3 learning something from Batman is I think they need to learn Easy Accessibility.
A Star Wars book should contain the following.
1. Luke Skywalker is a Jedi Knight.
2. Han Solo is a Pilot.
3. Leia is a Freedom Fighter.
4. They are good people.
5. They face interesting bad people.
You don't NEED 1, 2, and 3 really as some people have suggested. You can have modest success without the Big 3. However, it'd be nice if all Star Wars books were to incorporate a certain element of "I can pick this story up and not be confused."
Grey1 posted:
what can Han Solo learn from Firefly? And what can the audience learn?
Which is actually fairly accurate.
While Luke Skywalker is a reimagined Flash Gordon (with some Young King Arthur thrown in), Mal has been stated by Joss Whedon to BE Han Solo if the Rebellion had lost the war. Frankly, I approve of Mal's choice of co-pilot more than Hans.
:-)
It goes to show you that these characters aren't worn out.
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Come see our alternate NJO: http://tinyurl.com/ycesjq Endor was like the Imperials being assaulted by a hundred Tolkien Dwarf Rangers with a body hair problem.
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Dawud786
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
5/13 4:46pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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A Galactic Civil War series akin to the Clone Wars could work. More importantly, there's so much more of the GCW to work with besides what's in the space between movies. Unless GL comes in and says the Empire completely crumbled with the death of Palpatine over Endor... which doesn't even make any sense considering how the whole Senate jumped at the chance to let him be their dictator.
I still want to see screen adaptations of the highlights of the Bantam EU and DE. TTT and DE together could make for a really great animated saga.
What I can't get over is why GL is so obsessed with Anakin now. It's kind of weird to me that he seems to love that character more than the character he essentially named after himself(Luke). The Clone Wars is only half the story of the Skywalker Saga... the Galactic Civil War is absolutely crucial to it as well.
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Grey1
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 4:47pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Charlemagne19 posted:
I confess, I actually believe that part of my desire for the Big 3 learning something from Batman is I think they need to learn Easy Accessibility.
A Star Wars book should contain the following.
1. Luke Skywalker is a Jedi Knight.
2. Han Solo is a Pilot.
3. Leia is a Freedom Fighter.
4. They are good people.
5. They face interesting bad people.
You don't NEED 1, 2, and 3 really as some people have suggested. You can have modest success without the Big 3. However, it'd be nice if all Star Wars books were to incorporate a certain element of "I can pick this story up and not be confused."
I think the core of SW is exactly these statements, open to an interpretation that sets a "someone" for the names in 1 through 3. Even the PT has Anakin as a good person that turns bad, because it wouldn't work if he'd be bad right from the start (another instance where authors tend to write their own SW).
4 and 5 should never be up for debate. It's what makes Comic-KOTOR pure SW to me while Comic-Legacy struggles a bit with its complexity, again from my point of view. I think it's interesting how Matt "The Real Flash Gordon" Stover wanted That Mace Windu novel to be classic SW but got told to write Apocalypse Now, only to write That Luke Skywalker novel that's said to go back to the pre-Zahn roots classic SW. And having understood what he's writing about, he can pull off writing Apocalypse Now Mace Windu as someone we call Mace, he can pull off challenging the understanding of the Force because he never really challenges the Force itself, and he can finally pull off writing a movie adaptation that's the best movie adaptation period. Err, sorry, I got carried away... but really, Stover is the best example that you need not challenge the mechanics of the universe to avoid writing same-old same-old.
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Jacen had learned that one can meet the Universe [...] with fear, or with hatred, or with despair.
Or one can choose to meet it with love.
Jacen had chosen.
But still, he was astonished to discover that the Universe could love him back.
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Dawud786
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
5/13 4:56pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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What Leia has suffered from in the EU is not making her a Jedi Knight sooner. More importantly, while Cilghal seems to be just fine as a Jedi Healer since it fits her personality and all that jazz, so she's what in the RPG world is a Jedi Consular... Leia's continually shown to have her diplomatic strengths hamstring her Jedi training when her strength in diplomacy makes her a perfect fit for the Consular class! It just doesn't make any sense. She's a freedom fighter and a young upstart politician like her mother before her... but she should also be a Jedi like her father before her.
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Fettster
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
5/13 5:05pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Luke was calling Leia a Jedi by the Corellian trilogy; everyone conveniently forgot in the years following.
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Grey1
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 5:10pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Dawud786 posted:
A Galactic Civil War series akin to the Clone Wars could work.
It would work. Big time. Luke, Han, Leia, the droids, Chewie, Vader, X-Wings, Star Destroyers, the Falcon, Y-Wings, TIEs... any questions? This would be a series for kids as well for those who loved the old movies and didn't connect with the new ones. Although it has a catch that explains why The Clone Wars have to come first at this time, more on this a bit later...
Dawud786 posted:
More importantly, there's so much more of the GCW to work with besides what's in the space between movies. Unless GL comes in and says the Empire completely crumbled with the death of Palpatine over Endor... which doesn't even make any sense considering how the whole Senate jumped at the chance to let him be their dictator.
Well, the senate would of course jump at the chance to have freedom fighters tell them that they should enjoy their freedom, too... Besides, strict movie canonity (and strict logical sense) has Palpatine eliminating the senate and being openly evil. But that's actually off-topic...
Dawud786 posted:
I still want to see screen adaptations of the highlights of the Bantam EU and DE. TTT and DE together could make for a really great animated saga.
But here's the point - this won't happen. There isn't any guy who says, "Gee, let's make a movie of this comic or that novel." There are people who say "Great story! Now watch mine!" Which is perfectly understandable from an artistic point of view. Who wants to be a tracer?
Dawud786 posted:
What I can't get over is why GL is so obsessed with Anakin now. It's kind of weird to me that he seems to love that character more than the character he essentially named after himself(Luke). The Clone Wars is only half the story of the Skywalker Saga... the Galactic Civil War is absolutely crucial to it as well.
If you see the SW saga in six parts, it's Anakin's story - only that it drags a bit while the other characters have to grow up to bring him into the next phase of his story. That much is clear. Why are they going for The Clone Wars instead of The Civil War right now? Because the PT era is still fresh. Honestly, making an animated tie-in movie/series to a seventies movie would probably not work as well as something that just blew your mind. If there's one thing that's almost as incomprehensible to me as casual readers of NJO era novels, it's kids who discovered SW through the PT that don't fall asleep as soon as the OT hits the DVD player.
Also, Lucas stated that there's still some mileage in Anakin's story, as we haven't seen too much of his heroic/good side. I don't know if Luke's story from the OT still has that mileage - I can't think of a story set inbetween the OT movies that really showed new facets of Luke's character, or strengthened an existing facet. The only place this character can go is post-ROTJ - becoming a master, founding an academy and copying Ben's beard. And going back to the Batman universe, Lucas doesn't intend to send his characters to new places. He'll flesh out the places they've already been in the course of his six-part-story. If he wants characters in new places, he'll choose an all-new cast for a live-action tv show. Which, incidentally, he'll do.
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Jacen had learned that one can meet the Universe [...] with fear, or with hatred, or with despair.
Or one can choose to meet it with love.
Jacen had chosen.
But still, he was astonished to discover that the Universe could love him back.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 5:16pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Dawud posted:
More importantly, there's so much more of the GCW to work with besides what's in the space between movies. Unless GL comes in and says the Empire completely crumbled with the death of Palpatine over Endor... which doesn't even make any sense considering how the whole Senate jumped at the chance to let him be their dictator.
Actually, he had statues falling of Palpatine in Coruscant within minutes of Palpatine's death. It actually confused MOVIE audiences who were apparently unused to the idea that even the RICH AND POWERFUL would turn against Palpatine in joyous celebration of his death.
The EU itself didn't seem to believe Lucas when he stated Palpatine was THAT hated.
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Come see our alternate NJO: http://tinyurl.com/ycesjq Endor was like the Imperials being assaulted by a hundred Tolkien Dwarf Rangers with a body hair problem.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 5:22pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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I think Lucas doesn't want to spoil what he considers a Happy Ending really.
However, he approached Harrison Ford about a Han Solo vehicle or a Indiana Jones one.
We know what he picked.
So, that's interesting to think about.
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Come see our alternate NJO: http://tinyurl.com/ycesjq Endor was like the Imperials being assaulted by a hundred Tolkien Dwarf Rangers with a body hair problem.
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Grey1
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 5:24pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Fettster posted:
Luke was calling Leia a Jedi by the Corellian trilogy; everyone conveniently forgot in the years following.
Back then, Leia was a different kind of Jedi. Because if they had made her a regular exactly-like-Luke-Jedi, she would have been Luke 2. Not Luke II, no successor like one of the kids would naturally be someday, but rather Luuke - a clone in the story.
See how Dark Nest "gave the fans what they wanted" - Leia becoming a regular limb-chopper Jedi although she's already quite good at being a mother, a diplomat and a politician. [And hey, it's Denning's hero who gets to tell her what to do - write your own SW!] If you then look at LOTF, you can see that this Jedi training had no story potential whatsoever, and didn't work in the constellation of SW. Luke's doing the Jedi stuff while Leia hangs around with Han - that's ESB rules, and ROTJ worked the same way. It only made for a strange situation when 70-year-old Han suddenly had someone around who should actually be better at all the fighting and thinking stuff. SW offers clear archtypes, and even the PT suffered a bit from Obi-Wan and Anakin being too similar in their general job description.
Everything in its right place...
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Jacen had learned that one can meet the Universe [...] with fear, or with hatred, or with despair.
Or one can choose to meet it with love.
Jacen had chosen.
But still, he was astonished to discover that the Universe could love him back.
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Grey1
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 5:31pm
Subject:
RE: What can the Big Three learn from Batman?
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Charlemagne19 posted:
I think Lucas doesn't want to spoil what he considers a Happy Ending really.
However, he approached Harrison Ford about a Han Solo vehicle or a Indiana Jones one.
We know what he picked.
So, that's interesting to think about.
I'll agree with the first one... and about the Han Solo movie, he was pulling Ford's leg with that because he knew Ford would never in a million years agree to revisit the role.
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Jacen had learned that one can meet the Universe [...] with fear, or with hatred, or with despair.
Or one can choose to meet it with love.
Jacen had chosen.
But still, he was astonished to discover that the Universe could love him back.
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