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Topic:
"Reign" of the Empire
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Jmacq1
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/13 5:12am
Subject:
RE: "Reign" of the Empire
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Charlemagne19 posted:
Jmacq1 posted:
Yeah, I think it's easy to see why the general public was both distrustful and generally ignorant of what the Jedi were all about.
It's also interesting to note Palpatine had national heroes that he immediately blamed for everything.
Ironically, I think the Jedi are mostly responsible for everything good on most worlds at SOME point in the past.
Those 10,000 Jedi did a fairly good job patrolling the galaxy.
It just irritates the people who compose the losing factions.
Let's not forget that the leader of the CIS was a "well respected and venerated Jedi Master."
The facts are the facts: The Galaxy turned on the Jedi at the drop of a hat, or at least turned a blind eye to their destruction. Those aren't the actions of a general population that believes the Jedi are glorious heroes of the light, those are the actions of a population that already carries a strong undercurrent of resentment and distrust for them.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/13 5:33am
Subject:
RE: "Reign" of the Empire
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DarkestSith posted:
And they were "that bad" but atrocities can only get you so far...oh well.
I prefer to think that the Empire really committed that many atrocities. Whenever I read something where a conflict is bigger than the GCW, or more destructive, or when I'm reminded that the Empire only lasted twenty year, I mentally adjust the scope of the Dark Times.
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Jedimarine
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
5/13 5:54am
Subject:
RE: "Reign" of the Empire
- Date Edited:
5/13 6:27am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jedimarine
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I chalk it up to the efficiency of things like COMPNOR.
The Revolutions have been mentioned...but consider things like the Nazis or Napoleon...dramatic shifts in the organization of power, followed by overwhelming mass support, and the careful re-crafting of history to make it seem an inevitability. Re-education in conjunction with the silence of opposition...and the overwhelming pressure to conform.
Throw in some book burnings...a few "propaganda" shows to sway the public...for the young, it's like the Empire was always there and always will be...for the old, it's just a better life, or conversely, it's just better not to make waves. Poof...You have a resigned galaxy.
The level of capitulation to the Empire also plays a part...It's not like Palpatine had to wage a lengthy war of conquest to establish his power...the Clone Wars was a ruse...and the galaxy...either sick of the bloodshed...or truly willing for the new order, fold like paper...the rebellion takes 20 years to get on it's feet! That's a pretty impressive vote of confidence for any tyrant. So if people were so readily willing to be ruled, one can understand a lack of understanding or appreciation for what was before.
Which is another point. The Republic was JUNK...no body shed a tear at it's loss...people weren't dreaming about "the good ole days"...they had dreams of liberty...not dreams of bureaucratic roll calls.
I'd also suggest that much of this was under way before declaration of the Empire...I think the Empire was there in all but name before even AOTC...it simply couldn't be announced until the Jedi were dealt with.
I suspect the roots for the Empire begin shortly after Palpatine assumes the Chancellorship...it simply sprouts at ROTS.
So really...even though you don't have it in name...you can add another decade to the practices...you can, at the very least, say that the Republic that people dreamed of was killed by this point.
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DarkestSith
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
5/13 6:25am
Subject:
RE: "Reign" of the Empire
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Interesting point JediMarine, and I guess when you look at it from the point of a Palppy Conspiracy its easier to digest.
Now, what about Outbound Flight. I have be wrestling with the fact that Palpatine took power to consolidate the galaxy and form a government that could combat the Yuuzhan Vong. That means Palpatine was actually a good guy, much like Vergere. He had good intentions so his actions were meaningless. The Vong were the whole reason that Thrawn joined him in the first place. And Nom Anor even says that if the Empire were in power when they came their forces would have been destroyed.
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There is no death, there is immortality. There is no weakness, there is the Dark Side.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/13 6:26am
Subject:
RE: "Reign" of the Empire
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We've had discussions about this before on the board. Thing is, just because Palpatine says something doesn't make it true. In fact, if Palpatine says something there's good reason to believe it's not true. Palpatine told Thrawn what Thrawn needed to hear, just like he did with Anakin and everyone else he made trust him.
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Kaje
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/13 6:27am
Subject:
RE: "Reign" of the Empire
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Palpatine didn't form the Empire to protect the galaxy from the Vong. That's just an excuse he used to get decent folk like Thrawn on his side.
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Zorrixor
Registered:
Sep '04
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Date Posted:
5/13 6:33am
Subject:
RE: "Reign" of the Empire
- Date Edited:
5/13 6:41am (3 edits total)
Edited By:
Zorrixor
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Jedimarine said it when he mentioned regimes in RL where people have casually forgotten what life was like before a particular war. There is certainly a degree of doubt in the modern internet age whether it would ever be possible to re-educate people today the same way it may have once been but I am sure just like the internet has evolved the methods of re-education would too. It wouldn't surprise me though if there is some kind of psychiatric explanation for why after a particuarly traumatic event people just cut ties and forget what life was like before and focus on building a better future. I think of it a bit like when people get divorced, usually all they'll ever say about their ex is bad things, as its easier to just convince yourself of why you need to move on than look back at what happened objectively.
One of the things that is so terrifyingly easy to forget with most of us having grown up in a period of relative stability and peace is that society is not as permanent as we'd all like to hope. The Old Republic learned that the hard way. When you have propaganda forced down through throat constantly and all rival views are either surpressed or altogether expunged from history it is much easier just to lose the will to fight and accept whatever you're having preached to you than we'd all necessary like to believe.
For example, being agnostic I have trouble getting my head around when people convert from one religion to another so easily. There are historical reasons why people may sometimes switch between different branches of Christianity or switch to Islam or vice versa but those all have a lot of historical basis on which people can be convinced to change their views based on a degree of evidence. How does that work though for more minor religions like scientology where there is only a few decades worth of evidence? When most of the world laughs at the idea as if it was a cult of people worshipping aliens why do some people still manage to get drawn into it and genuinely believe it?
I put it down to the fact that it is far easier to be convinced into believing something than we would all like to think. 'Proving' something is true isn't always necessary, all they need to do is place the seeds of doubt about what someone already believes and the person will do the rest themselves. The Empire completely forced the idea there had been a Jedi conspiracy down peoples' throats and used the Clone Wars to concoct a genuinely plausible belief in a Jedi rebellion. Suddenly that seed of doubt grows and after a while people eventually start to wonder how many of the other stories the 'Jedi who had been controlling the Senate for centuries' had been spreading were nothing but lies too. Suddenly, the carefully formed belief people once had is shattered. In a way, this is why I think it was so important for people to have wanted Palpatine to become Emperor, because they needed to have the faith in him to believe what he then started telling them. Forgive the Godwin, but why did so many people get drawn into believing the Jews were the root of all evil? When people have lived through the bloodiest war in a thousand years they're willing to accept whatever the man who 'saved' them tells them if it stops them suffering another war. Sometimes an answer, however rediculous it may be, is better than no hope of a better future at all. People genuinely wanted to believe Palpatine represented the hope of a better galaxy where war would be a relic of the past, so they convinced themselves that what he said was true, because they believed the alternative, that there was no hope and the galaxy was doomed to an endless cycle of conflict, was worse than accepting what he told them.
The life we lead is a delicate thing and not something to be taken for granted. To me that's the most important lesson of the Old Republic. The Empire may have only existed for a couple of decades but that was long enough to utterly convince people that whatever they may have once believed was no longer true. Scary? Yes, but that's the point.
As I say though, there is a degree of doubt due to how the HoloNet works and whether or not it would have been possible for the Empire to censor things due to the way people laugh about the idea of censoring the internet. Even if they could, there is also the doubt as to whether even if the HoloNet was censored whether records would still exist on individual worlds computer systems. However, I just tend to assume since the HoloNet had been going for literally thousands of years that there was probably a giant data system stored on a planet somewhere and that with control of that the Empire literally controlled all knowledge. I imagine it as a bit like the plot of Metal Gear Solid 2 or a world where everything is stored in some giant supercomputer owned by Google. At least, we rarely read about 'computers' as such, usually its always just datapads and stuff that access all their information on the HoloNet, which begs the question 'where does the HoloNet store it'? For now, I'm just going to consider it all as being on planet Google in the Deep Core.
The more difficult thing to get around I would say is aliens since with some having such long life spans I doubt creatures like Yoda who have been around several hundred years would suddenly forget everything they had ever known in two decades. Humans? Sure. Ancient creatures like Yoda? No. But then, the Empire tried to create mistrust of aliens and this would just be one more reason to do that.
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TalonCard
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Jan '01
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Date Posted:
5/13 9:58am
Subject:
RE: "Reign" of the Empire
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Zorrixor posted:
As I say though, there is a degree of doubt due to how the HoloNet works and whether or not it would have been possible for the Empire to censor things due to the way people laugh about the idea of censoring the internet.
The HoloNet isn't just like the Internet, though it's been used like that more and more lately. If you read stuff like the Imperial Sourcebook, you'll find out that Palpatine actually had the HoloNet dismantled after he became Emperor. Why censor something when you can dissasemble it instead?
TC
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Rogue_Follower
Title: Manager: Literature
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
5/13 10:11am
Subject:
RE: "Reign" of the Empire
- Date Edited:
5/13 10:12am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Rogue_Follower
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Yeah, after Palpy took over, the HoloNet was tightly controlled, and was only used by the Imperial military and other select parties. There were still some public newsnets, though, including local channels and Imperial HoloVision.
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DarkestSith
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
5/13 10:21am
Subject:
RE: "Reign" of the Empire
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Palppy couldnt have told Thrawn what Thrawn wanted to hear because he didnt know what Thrawn wanted to hear. When Stratis told Thrawn about Palppy's visions Stratis had no idea how Thrawn would react. I think Palppy is more like Caedus, trying to do something for the good of the galaxy.
-----signature-----
There is no peace, there is anger. There is no fear, there is power.
There is no death, there is immortality. There is no weakness, there is the Dark Side.
I am the Heart of Darkness. I know no fear, But rather I instill it in my enemies.
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Sinrebirth
Title: Hierarch and Chancellor of EUCity
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
5/13 10:23am
Subject:
RE: "Reign" of the Empire
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To answer the thread:
The Galactic Empire destroyed the Jedi as an Order and destroyed the Republic.
The Old Sith Wars achieved the fore, the New Sith Wars the latter (to a degree).
Darth Sidious, with arguably less bloodshed and less time, took down both, with three Sith and a host of secret apprentices/Dark Jedi/Hands.
The galaxy hasn't properly recovered from this even by the time of Legacy, to a degree.
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patchworkz7
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
5/13 10:27am
Subject:
RE: "Reign" of the Empire
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As much as I hate bringing real life stuff in Star Wars, if you wondering how an Empire of 25 years could have achieved so much, well, I won't go for the obvious, but look at the Year Zero attempts of the Khmer Rouge or the Taliban in Afghanistan who tried to excise as much of their history as possible (the destruction of historical artifacts and Budda statues, for example).
Now imagine a galaxy spanning Empire that has complete control of the information distribution, education, and other systems, as well as being able to electronically change histories, since many histories are store electronically, or simple rounding up books.
A regime that used brainwashing, dark side power, and other sinister methods to keep their citizens in check, and had dark side force sensitives out hunting any who could oppose them.
Read something like Philip Zimbardo's THE LUCIFER EFFECT (he ran the Stanford Prison Experiment) about how good people can be pushed into doing bad things and remember that these were master manipulators at the top who could control access to food, entertainment, punishment, and on some planets even weather control.
How easy would it be for these people to warp everything that is known or thought to be known? Especially about a semi-secrative organization that supposedly turned on the legal government (and while the audience knows the truth, few others do). Even those they helped will view them with distrust afterwards and ask; "Did we really ever know them? Did they help me or help themselves?"
Look at how most police are treated by the citizenry they are assigned to protect, it's easy to turn people against another faction with the right incentives, and Palpatine had ALL the cards and all the control. The people who had spent the most time with the Jedi were the same people who butchered them.
With the exception of the Antarian Rangers and a few other loyalists groups, very few would have kept the dream alive under Palpatine's rule.
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
-Games
-LACWAC
-Lit Mod of Death
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 10:45am
Subject:
RE: "Reign" of the Empire
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The real-life explaination is simple- when he made the OT, Lucas intended the Empire's reign to have been 10-20 years longer than what it ended up being, a result of Lucas's decision to make Anakin and Obi-Wan 10-20 years younger than he had intended (as of the filming of ROTJ).
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/13 12:22pm
Subject:
RE: "Reign" of the Empire
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IU. IU.
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HOLY CRAP MY NAME IS RED!!! Emperor Fel's badassery knows no bounds. As Father and Son (An AU RP) - PALPATINE MUST DIE!!! Check my profile for recruiting details. http://boards.theforce.net/role_playing_forum/b10328/28357048/p1/?10
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DarthBoba
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 3:10pm
Subject:
RE: "Reign" of the Empire
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A couple good examples of governments rewriting history:
The Indian Wars in the western US- these basically weren't covered in US history books for high school until pretty recently; from the early 1900s to the 1990s basically nothing important happened within the US from 1865 to 1912 or so.
Hitler blaming Jews for Germany losing in WW1.
If you control what gets said, you can make people believe pretty much anything; we know Palpatine controlled the Holonet, and I'm guessing state-run education was a big priority in the Empire.
That's how you go from Jedi being these great heroes to being virtually unheard of and villified when they are heard of in about twenty years.
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