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Topic:
The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
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marmkid
Registered:
Apr '01
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Date Posted:
7/2 3:27pm
Subject:
RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
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SuperSaiyaMan12 posted:
marmkid posted:
PadmeA_Panties posted:
Good point and all.
But let me put it this way: this novel should never have gotten this high of a review.
yet it did
i dont think people were lying about their review scores
you should respect others opinions and just accept that others liked something you didnt
Shouldn't you also respect Padme's statement, conversely?
i do
she can think whatever she wants about the book
i tried to explain why i thought the reviews were higher than anticipated for a book that has been criticized widely on these boards
but in a thread of reviews, there is no reason for Padme to say all the reviews are wrong
its her opinion that the book shouldnt be rated that high
which is why her rating of the book should have been low
but just because others didnt agree with her, doesnt mean they are wrong
just like someone who liked the book shouldnt say she is wrong for disliking it
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CoppiceThorne
Registered:
Jun '08
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Date Posted:
7/3 1:37am
Subject:
RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
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My rating for Invincible:
9 out of 10
Not quite a review, per se, but a collection of loose thoughts. I have only good things to say about this book (because I liked it). My focus is on the smaller things that stood out -- for the reasons of: A) being happy with the characters and the bigger events as they stand; and b) I’m not up to the challenge to elucidate on the bigger picture, and thus it will be left to the far more seasoned reviewer. Sorry about the lackluster performance forthwith.
~I absolutely loved the italic-type --flow-walks!-- into the past. It started the book off well. I loved the vibe that they gave, secreting themselves away there throughout the book, simmering away quietly like a glowrod cupped in your hands in a dark chamber. It gave a sense of (nearly heartstopping?) gravity about the unconditional and unbreakable connection between Jaina and Jacen, which I even dare to think is still there: it’s bigger than the both of them. I thought this was a respectful touch -- and it struck me emotionally in a very beautiful way. Very relevant inclusion.
~Moff Lecersen -- apt for acquiring his own little fanclub -- I am glad when lesser-focused-upon characters such as Leccie can have a recurring role, rather than appear once and never be heard of again. Full marks for the author’s revival of him, as I think he’s a charismatic, interesting fellow. I’m still gagging (pleasantly) over his appreciation of Jag’s “good Imperial blood”, and the way he detected Soontir Fel in his visage.
~The Verpine, and the asteroid Nickel One -- breathtakingly unfurled, all of it. It makes me want to read more about them, their culture and their lives. Fascinating descriptions and culture. I felt like I was right down in there, hearing the clacking of mandibles, with a frenzy in the air. I must say I love seeing such far-unhuman beings -- and having them treated by the author as intelligent and worthwhile existences. After the first chapter, I was hoping that there would be a reprisal of this, and am thankful that there was: Jaina returning to the asteroid, the reader re-entering that heady atmosphere, with the Mandalorians. Jaina’s little repartee with Vatok Tawr was a deft and meaningful little moment in a time of shared strife.
~Tahiri Veila -- she really came into her own there in the sinkhole with Ben. It was a memorable scene, captivatingly written. Brings joy to my heart.
~The Zel twins -- I like the way that Taryn is cheeky, and that her sister is very different.
~Mirta Gev -- true to her character, and a blast to read about (as always).
~Ben and Shevu’s rendezvous in Monument Plaza was terrific. As well as Leia’s antics as a Codru-Ji. Then, later, I liked the way Jaina tried to replicate such antics on the Anakin Solo, and her wondering about how her mother does it. Things like that crack me up!
~The book’s vantage point largely hovers around the events concerning Jaina and Jacen. That is why some other characters and possible situations don’t appear in it. And I like that, because in real life, it would seem that way. The way that one is immersed in things right where one is. Hearing about things peripherally. I think that justifies the open-endedness of things, and gives it a real sense of reality in the moment and the direct surroundings. I find this to be a unique perspective. This almost claustrophobic feeling is very powerful when centering on the aftermath where Jaina is cradling Caedus -- the blocking out of everything else.
Verdict: It has a rich quality about it, hard to explain, that makes it eminently re-readable, as there are a lot of subtle and memorable moments to uncover in it (and wallow in -- like the sinkhole). I cannot imagine this book not having been done (either by Troy Denning, or written differently). I like it the way it is. I don’t consider any of the open-ended themes as constituting a disappointment. Such as in life -- events aren’t often sown up in a perfect little package. Characters are still in flux. Instead of being dubiously self-conscious as a novel, rather it’s like a little hidden camera taking footage of events. I suspect that it would have been too contrived if the characters had all been perfectly accounted for; and such suspense, as in the case of Zekk's mysterious disappearance, sows the seed for some future excitements. I believe that Troy Denning did a very credible take on the life of the characters at this time. A very unique book. And I don’t think it should have to suffer for it. It’s unique, and that is why I like it so. I thought that Troy Denning put a lot of thought into this book. I also thought he is very good at creating a picture in your mind -- a moving picture, that breathes and has feeling. And you, as a reader, are immersed in that world. I personally think that a lot of good new things were sparked by the book. Thus, 9/10. *Hugging the book protectively* There’s plenty more I could add -- but it’s all there in the book.
-----signature-----
"...but all my words come back to me, in shades of mediocrity..."
"...I've squandered my resistance for a pocketful of mumbles..."
~Simon & Garfunkel
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of Awayness
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
7/3 8:17pm
Subject:
RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
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Average score: 669.67/95 = 7.05
This really, really isn't the place to start complaining about the scores other people are giving to the book, and certainly not to start an argument about it. People give it the score they give it. You give it the score you give it. We get an average. Maybe you think it's high; maybe you think it's low. But it's the average and that's how it is. Life goes on.
-----signature-----
Slaughter is the best medicine
Recipient of Thrawn McEwok's Sexually Ambiguous Tusken Raider™ and a Special Golden Ewok™
"Reality doesn't care if you believe it." - Boba Fett
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Jinn_Soresom
Registered:
Jun '07
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Date Posted:
7/3 9:28pm
Subject:
RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
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Alrighty, then, here goes:
The Good:
- I will admit that I loved the scene wherein Caedus demolished the Mandos. I'm serious. I actually cackled.
- "Kriffing Mandalorians!" I enjoyed seeing them get taken down a peg.
- The action was fast-paced and brutal. That's always a good thing. Unless you're reading a cookbook. Then it might be kinda weird.
- There were some truly amusing moments in the book, like Tahiri's puttin' the moves on Ben, and Leia putting the moves on just about everyone in a kilometer radius.
- The YJK jokes at the top were a sad and poignant way of remembering that lovable dope that had once been Jacen Solo.
- The flashback scenes were even better than the jokes.
The Bad:
- Too short. I'm sorry, but I flat-out refuse to pay that much money for a hardcover book that's so much shorter than the paperbacks that preceeded it. I read it in the bookstore. Del Rey can stick that in their pipe and smoke it.
- The ending felt rushed. You could've solved the above problem by making a chapter or two with wrapping-up scenes from the perspectives of various characters. Not even all of them, just the few most important ones. They don't even have to be that long, just...there. Instead, we got a situation where the author was telling us, not showing us, the events in the story.
- Luke was...virtually unrecognizable. He was just downright disturbing. LOTF Luke seems to be forever bouncing back and forth between sitting on his arse, and getting worked up and then doing something wrong.
- They killed Shevu! Damn it, I liked Shevu, and then they just hauled off and whacked him. I've mentioned this before, but how come they managed to kill off a Traviss character that I genuinely liked while Boba Bloody Fett is still alive and kicking! Yeah, sure, he can never return to Mandalore and Mirta Gev got paralyzed, but (a.) Fett never cared much for Mandalore anyway, and (b.) Mirta's parlysis can get fixed. Star Wars is a galaxy with bacta and kolto and droid prosthesis and other such awesomeness that make our most advanced tech look like leeches.
The Straight-up UGLY:
- "Sith-blood solvent." You see, Han Solo was clever and funny. This senile old fart, however, managed to spout off the single most insensitive line I've ever read in Star Wars. Way to go, dude.
- Daala. Daala, Daala, Daala. You know, there's really nothing more that I can add to this that Trip hasn't already said, and said more succinctly than I could ever hope to.
5/10
-----signature-----
"Nihilistic little bastard, isn't he?" Kyp Durron, speaking about Darth Caedus. Anakin pointed his lightsaber towards Darth Caedus. "You." Jacen smiled and bowed. "Me." Anakin struck. VERSUS: http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/27412705/p1/?
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of Awayness
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
7/3 10:29pm
Subject:
RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
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Average score: 674.67/96 = 7.03
-----signature-----
Slaughter is the best medicine
Recipient of Thrawn McEwok's Sexually Ambiguous Tusken Raider™ and a Special Golden Ewok™
"Reality doesn't care if you believe it." - Boba Fett
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DaalaforCoS
Registered:
Jul '08
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Date Posted:
7/18 9:33pm
Subject:
RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
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Hmm... 9/10 for me. You can all hack me to bits for it, but I'm glad that Daala's Chief of State. It shows she's not loopy-doopy anymore. (Actually, I never really thought she was). She's going to put a new twist on the Jedi-hating Chief of State that we haven't seen before. It was a bit short, I'll admit, but the little revelation at the end about Allana surviving brought it back up again.
Also, I enjoyed the Mando'a carp. Traviss is my favorite writer out of the three. I wasn't too fond of Mirta and Bob'ika not being able to go back to Mandalore, or the fact that Luke used the Mandos as bantha fodder, but desperate times, etc., etc.
The Zel twins were worthwhile additions, though that bit about how Isolder had sisters but didn't but had nieces but didn't have any sisters was odd. Caedus was full on crazy, and the fights with Jaina (who I disliked immensely in Fury, but liked in Revelation) were well done in my opinion.
Shoot me down all you want, but in my opinion, Invincible was great, and left me anxious for more.
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ConservativeSoldier
Registered:
Oct '05
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Date Posted:
7/18 10:20pm
Subject:
RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
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5/10. I was left with a general 'Meh' from start to finish.
-----signature-----
Aut vincere aut mori! Jump start my heart and wake the sleeper inside...hold up the flag 'cause it's ride or die.  John McCain '08.
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of Awayness
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
7/19 2:31pm
Subject:
RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
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Average score: 688.67/98 = 7.03
-----signature-----
Slaughter is the best medicine
Recipient of Thrawn McEwok's Sexually Ambiguous Tusken Raider™ and a Special Golden Ewok™
"Reality doesn't care if you believe it." - Boba Fett
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J_K_DART
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
7/19 3:15pm
Subject:
RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
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4 out of 10. Rereading it, I find myself disliking it all the more. I'm actually beginning to seriously dislike Denning's writing; in SbS, he enjoyed the Vong brutality a bit more than I thought was good, and the same streak is visible in this book. If Denning's writing in the next sries, I may not be. A few good scenes, characterisation unrecognisable.
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"Victory without risk is like a pizza without pepperoni."
"I like my pizzas without pepperoni."
"Sir master of the long post" - Excellence
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of Awayness
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
7/19 7:38pm
Subject:
RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
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Average score: 692.67/99 = 7.00
-----signature-----
Slaughter is the best medicine
Recipient of Thrawn McEwok's Sexually Ambiguous Tusken Raider™ and a Special Golden Ewok™
"Reality doesn't care if you believe it." - Boba Fett
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jacenskylo
Registered:
Feb '06
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Date Posted:
8/4 12:59am
Subject:
RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
- Date Edited:
8/4 1:00am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
jacenskylo
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A solid 8.0. I was glad Denning didn't make this a repeat of The Unifying Force. true it was rushed but not as bad as people say it is in my opinion. Plus the white eyes scene was a nice touch
-----signature-----
"We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home" Edward R. Murrow
"People shouldn't be afraid of their governments, governments should be afraid of their people" V
"Awww shutup and shoot something" Cade Skywalker
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of Awayness
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
8/4 6:09pm
Subject:
RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
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Average score: 700.67/100 = 7.01
-----signature-----
Slaughter is the best medicine
Recipient of Thrawn McEwok's Sexually Ambiguous Tusken Raider™ and a Special Golden Ewok™
"Reality doesn't care if you believe it." - Boba Fett
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chiss_man
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
8/24 12:52pm
Subject:
RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
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I finally got to reading this a while ago, I'll repost my thoughts from a PM I sent:
First of all, I wouldn't say Invincible is a bad Star Wars book. The Crystal Star, is a bad Star Wars book. Allegiance, is a bad Star Wars book. No, what Invincible is, is average. Run of the mill. Not bad, not great. Unfortunately, LOTF needed a solid winner to justify itself at the end and it didn't get it.
When I get down to it, LOTF is basically the prequel trilogy starring the cast of the New Jedi Order. And it wasn't even that well done, if that's believable. Supposedly there's another Galactic Civil War going on during Invincible but no one bothered to tell us, the reader, anything about it. I get the overwhelming sense that Denning was backed into a corner and told to "finish the damn series up and do it in less than 300 pages!" and as such, he focused on what he deemed most important (i.e. Caedus/Jaina and Ben/Tahiri)
For me, I could sum this book up in two words "left field." Allow me to expand. The obvious first thing is Daala. Ridiculous enough that she became CoS in the first place, the sheer lack of attention paid to her throughout the series only adds to that lack of belief. Plus the fact that no one seems to be BOTHERED by this is alarming as well. I can just imagine Han going "WE MUST STOP...ah **** it, I give up" about her.
There's also the issue of Jagged Fel and the Moffs. Listen, I adore Legacy. It's DH's premier comic for a good reason (which you SHOULD be reading, but that's a whole 'nother rant). And I'm fully in favor of seeing ties in the books being formed towards that end. But those ties have to make SENSE. Jagged Fel essentially being given control of the Empire by Luke makes NO sense. It's like the writers knew what had to happen (Jag being Emperor one day), so they just made up the first way to make that happen that they could. And the beginnings of the Imperial Mission were kinda lame as well. I'm not sure why, but I always imagined that being a more noble organization, instead of a throwaway line by Han to a corrupt Moff. Let me clear this up. Logical, sensible ties from LOTF to Legacy (i.e. the One Sith cameos in the middle books) = good. Obnoxious, hitting-you-over-the-head with their lack of subtlety ties = bad.
There's also the Tahiri sexuality thing which we discussed already, but I'll reiterate a bit. It's obvious that the "****" term is meant for the reader to see her as a bad guy, but it's not fair. Leia was acting just as such earlier in the book on Coruscant, but then she was just a "master of beauty" or something. It's cheap and it's lazy for writers to just use sexuality as a defining point of a "bad guy." They did the same with Alema, and it was just as bad then. Hell, even Lumiya was frequently mentioned in terms of her looks. It's very frustrating, as you NEVER hear stories about how Exar Kun, or Darth Bane, or any other male Sith/Dark Jedi was a *****, or countless descriptions of their looks. No, they are judged based on their skills and powers. Women, especially the bad guys, are seen only as worthy as their looks are good. That is lazy, poor, and frankly, beneath this franchise.
One more note about Tahiri, she went all soft after killing Shevu, right? Because she killed someone? Unless I'm completely mistaken, she FRIGGIN KILLED PELLAEON IN THE LAST BOOK AND GOT BY OK. It just read like Denning wanted to create a way for her to be turned back, but again, it just rang hollow. Never mind the fact her whole path this book was "IMA SITH!" "Now I'm not, the end"
Despite all my complaining, Invincible wasn't BAD. It kept my interest, and I finished it relatively quickly. It just was a bad FINALE. If this were the NJO and this, the halfway point, then it would be a better read. But it just rings hollow to me, like how I said it just read like someone told Denning he had 300 pages to finish up LOTF and do it now damnit! The jokes at the start of each chapter were cute, and I also liked the flashbacks to YJK era stories. Shame that recent books cannot be as good as those relatively simple yet fufilling stories were.
I'd say 6.5/10
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"(You are) a shameless grab for cash with no quality" Soontir 2008 St. Louis Cardinals Record: 75-65 
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of Awayness
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
8/24 1:11pm
Subject:
RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
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Average score: 707.17/101 = 7.00
-----signature-----
Slaughter is the best medicine
Recipient of Thrawn McEwok's Sexually Ambiguous Tusken Raider™ and a Special Golden Ewok™
"Reality doesn't care if you believe it." - Boba Fett
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MistrX
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
9/4 6:29pm
Subject:
RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
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So, finally, it's the end of the this nine-book series. Its ups and downs and books that sometimes makes one marvel that they were all connected (or supposed to be). Reading the book, it's clear that it has its single purpose. That purpose is to end the series, wrap up the story, kill Darth Caedus, and end the war. And it does that. The problem is, it doesn't do much else. Reading through this book, it seems to me that all it was there for was to get us from A to B, Jaina's given the assignment to Caedus' final death. It's simple, it's straightforward, and I think that like some of Denning's previous work, it's shallow. The thing is, even compared to those previous entries of his that I didn't find particularly deep, this seems like the small end of the kiddie pool. It seems that all we were given time for was the Jaina vs. Caedus conflict and Tahiri's redemption. All of the other threads begun in LOTF or either not addressed or quickly wrapped up in a neat little bow. It's rushed, mostly "offscreen", and I find that unfortunate.
Having said that, it's an enjoyable story. Jaina is really given her chance to shine here in the first time in a while. This is the Jaina we remember, the Sword of the Jedi, the young woman who fought and killed Tsavong Lah and though of the Trickster ploy, the strong-willed but still vulnerable daughter of the Solos whom we've all come to love. The one who puts her family and life as a Jedi first while still using the advice and lessons she's learned. It's welcoming to have the Jaina I remembered back on the page. It fits with her attitudes and thoughts as she must confront her conflicting feelings she is presented with as she has to hunt down the closest person she's ever known. Well done on that account.
Ben also gets another moment in this one. LOTF as really been a look into Ben's growth, or at least the opportunity to do so. It makes sense seeing as it's the first chance we've gotten to see him beyond childhood. While his stories and attitudes, not to mention characterizations have been all over the map in nine books, I think that this book shows him in a positive light, sending him on a solo adventure, allowing Shevu to have one final major impact on his life, and giving him a big moment by redeeming Tahiri. It's rather believable that this kid will continue the line that will eventually bring us to Kol Skywalker.
Speaking of Legacy, I couldn't help but wonder if some elements were alluding to concepts we see in that story. Han's comment about the Empire helping impoverished planets had shades of its later "Victory Without War" program, and Luke's vision that the darkness would not go away with Jacen's death made me wonder if he was getting hints of the future return of the Sith.
The book leaves quite a bit unresolved, the most obvious being Zekk's fate. Maybe they wanted to get him out of the way to let Jaina hook up with Jag (though it seemed they were already doing that with the lovely Hapan twins), and like the end of Dark Nest, it's one thread left untied. For example, what will happen to Tahiri? And where the heck is Niathal? Because seriously Daala? Daala?!?! The insane former Imperial is a better choice than Niathal?
Other things like why they bothered to show Jaina learning the shatterpoint. Future novel perhaps? Were they just showing us that Jaina is adept at picking up new Force powers quickly?
And what was with Luke's fade-out during the battle? Suddenly, he's just sitting there in the blastboat again, not talking. I thought maybe he was messing with Jacen again, but that didn't appear to be the case. Did they ever explain what he was doing in that final battle?
If anything, the few POVs and singular Jaina-centered storyline made the book have less of an grand, sweeping, and epic punch that other series enders like TUF or even TLC had. It was a smaller scale than I would have expected and to me that takes away from it just a bit. But overall, it's fairly solid, so I'll give it a good score.
7.25/10
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"The only thing more insane than falsehood is truth."
We are well and truly forked.
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