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Author	Topic: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
rebel_cheese Registered: Jul '06	Date Posted: 5/16 10:12am Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers) - Date Edited: 5/16 10:13am (1 edits total) Edited By: rebel_cheese
	Well, let's get this started then. Denning has always been a hit-or-miss SW writer to me. His Dark Nest trilogy was basically a giant miss, while Star By Star, Tatooine Ghost, and his two previous LOTF novels ranged from pretty good to spectacular. After the way Karen Traviss basically screwed up the LOTF plotline in Revelation, I knew that Denning had his work cut out for him just to have everything make sense, much less conclude a nine-book series. When I saw the length of the book I was not exactly encouraged. But I bought the book and read it anyway. First off, there is no filler at all. This is a concise, to-the-point novel. The story moves relentlessly from scene to scene, never allowing the reader a chance to breathe. It was a long time in coming, but having a novel that is nothing but payoff is gratifying after collecting the previous eight books in the series. Now for the rest, the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly/So-So. The Good: Jaina Solo. It is about time Jaina was portrayed as an adult and finally shows signs of being the long-awaited Sword of The Jedi. Throughout the novel, the psychological effects of having to kill her brother were well-handled, and she showed a fantastic amount of versatility and strength. However, she shows she is also human. Realizing that fraticide is the only way to stop the war has to weigh on a person much, and I think that Jaina's internal struggle was perfect. I also liked she just wasn't putty to the Mandos, she was her own person, respectful of the Mandos and of what they taught her but realizing there was a clear difference between the Mando way and the Jedi way. In the end, though, even though she defeated Caedus/Jacen by traditional Jedi tactics, she needed to call upon Mando-like stamina and fortitude to win. That was perhaps the best way to handle what Traviss did in the previous book and yet maintain Jaina's identity as a Jedi. Finally, Jaina temporarily breaking down, holding her brother's body in her arms, was heart-breaking. One of the most poignant scenes Denning has ever written. It was just about time Jaina was treated decently, and I hope Jaina continues to progress as a character in the new galazy. Luke. Yeah, he didn't take Caedus down. He didn't need to. This was Jaina's novel, but Luke still played a big role in the novel, confusing Caedus and using his foresight and the ability of Force visions to outwit Caedus and force the best possible outcome. The old war strategist in him also comes into play here, as he uses the Mandos to the Jedi's advantage in an uneasy alliance. The Quotes and Flashbacks. Wow. What a poignant way of driving home of what was going to happen. The quotes made me reflect, because this is the eleventh year I've been reading SW books, and the first ones I read was the YJK. Reading those old quotations really resonated with me, and the flashbacks showing a kinder Jacen that we all know, from before Star By Star, was just awesome. They were handled really well, but also showed that Caedus wasn't really Jacen anymore. Caedus. After the last three books, where he didn't do much besides cackle and decide to do something vicious, rash, and evil, it was about time he got his act together and become a real villain. He shows mastery of the shatterpoint and uses a brand-new Force ability, giving us a trace of what he learned during his five-year sabbatical. He treats Tahiri as an apprentice, he strategizes, but he is also clearly insane, as he proves much in the novel. His final stand, and his will to survive, was eye-catching. I couldn't mentally look away as Jacen stands up again and again and again from all the abuse Jaina gives him and it takes a final strike to the heart to finally do him in. At the end, he finally reverts to Jacen to save his daughter, the one person he still loves. A tragic, yet fitting, conclusion, that gives some hope that he forcibly redeemed himself for love. If that isn't a SW theme I don't know what is. Ben. There is hope for the future of the Jedi Order. Ben grows up and shows he has the capability of becoming a great character in his own right. His redemption of Tahiri was classic, and he also shows resourcefulness and fortitude in resisting Tahiri's attempts to break him. He has compassion, he has skill, he has maturity. Give him a novel and pair him up with some of the new generation of Jedi already. The Mandos. Yes, they were actually a good thing for once. Denning's take on them single-handedly blows everything Traviss has done out of the water. Denning's frank interpretation gives them much-needed flaws, but also showcases how they are human, but also how the traditional Mando way isn't the best way. Caedus' takedown of an entire Mando squad shows that. Trisa and Taryn. They were just so much fun to read about. Especially Taryn, she seems set up specifically for the shippers among us. Stylish, fun, but also capable of being all business when necessary, these twins have potential to become really important characters in the future. Perhaps they will become Allana's bodyguards soon? Allana. With Ben, she showcases hope for the next generation of Jedi. I look forward to watching her grow up, and the way Denning concluded Allana's part of the story was the best-case scenario. "Amelia" is going to be a Solo and Jedi Knight. It is too bad she will be seperated from Tenel Ka, but it is for the best. Legacy setup. Emperor Fel the 1st, plus the foundations for the more benevolent Empire in Legacy are set. It's going to be interesting to watch it develop down the line. Shatterpoints. Caedus and Jaina both got to do some really incredible feats in this book, which I've been waiting for since TUF when Jacen took down Omini . . . it was just awesome. There is just nothing like Jacen dodging Jaina's sniper shots while taking down an entire squad of Mandos. Wow. The Bad: Needed another fifty pages. 299 pages is really more of an extended outline than a novel. Denning could have gone into a lot more detail here, at least giving us glimpses of what was happening outside of the personal struggle, so the conclusion could've made more sense. Which brings us to . . . Most. Abrupt. Ending. Ever. Seriously, there is so much left to the imagination or so rushed that it was difficult to make sense of it. Yes, there was some closure thanks to Allana, but it really left a lot to be desired overall. Moffs. They started getting on my nerves and showcased too much collective power to be realistic. The Ugly. Tahiri hitting on Ben. I know that Tahiri wasn't really planning on doing much with Ben and the scene had purpose, but it was still disturbing. She's approaching thirty and Ben's only entering puberty. Yikes. It makes the Zel sister's flirting seem tame and commonplace in comparison. There Is A War Going On, Remember? I didn't like that the entire war was basically resolved offscreen. It made the ending nonsensical. Especially with Daala here. A couple of sentences from Han does NOT make Daala taking over the GA make sense, I'm sorry. I would have liked at least a couple of glimpses into what was going on beyond the Skywalker/Solo conflict there. Yet Another Vanishing Act. Denning seems to like doing this, first with Raynar, then with Jagged, and now Zekk. Enough already. I kinda want to know whether Zekk survived or not. The lack of finality surrounding Zekk's fate dragged down the ending even more. The Cover Art. I'm really glad Jason Felix is done with SW now that this series is over. The final three books of LOTF have had some of the worst cover art I have ever seen on SW books. In Conclusion: This book wasn't the best ending, but when you get down to it, it was the way LOTF had to end. The poignancy of the whole book was resonant, and there are signs of hope with Ben and Allana likely going to become great Jedi Knights. And the news of a post-LOTF novel coming down the line looks like it's going to be an old-school adventure novel that perhaps will resolve the mystery of the Millennium Falcon once and for all is tantalizing. I look forward to following Jaina, Ben, Allana, Jagged, and everyone else as we launch towards Legacy. I have a feeling it is going to be a fun ride. Final Rating: 9/10. -----signature----- Padawan of princess_of_naboo E-married to the amazing padawanlost Member of Charon_Force Beginning's End: http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=28450077&brd=10477&replies=1
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darthcaedus1138 Registered: Oct '07	Date Posted: 5/16 11:17am Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
	i'd give the book a 9/10 and the whole series a 7/10 -----signature----- God creates dinosaurs. God destroys dinosaurs. God creates man. Man destroys God. Man creates dinosaurs... Dinosaurs destroy Man, Women inherit the Earth
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QuiGon-Z Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 5/16 11:52am Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
	Well, the series sucked and completely ruined my favorite character but there's not much as can be done about that now. THE GOOD: Luke Skywalker: Was amazing. Interfering with Caedus' visions (why couldn't he have had a chat with Jacen about visions of the future WAY back? This would've prevented him from even becoming a sith) plus he did an amazing job of letting go of attachment to end the war. Though he did seem a bit heartless using people and ordering Caedus' death. More on that later. JAINA SOLO: Finally a book that centers on her, she was marginalized to dueling practice or getting shoved around by Jacen for the first 7 books, and was subordinated to Mandalorians for the 8th. It was about time that she showed her true power, fulfilled the sword of the jedi role, and got the job done. Though I REALLY wanted more DIALOGUE between her and Caedus during the fights. Yeah he's evil and pretty near unredeemable but still, there's ALWAYS dialogue, even when Windu came to arrest Palpatine, and the jedi are NEVER the first to attack. Why should anything change now? But at least Jaina got banged up enough for her trouble. Plus she felt bad, I was glad that she at least seized upon any excuse she had to try redeeming him only to see that he was using her to get to the rest of the jedi. I'm glad she finally took a step back from Mandalorian thought but for Heaven's sake she was vicious, especially compared to Ben. I gotta feel like dialogue with Caedus could have at least accomplished SOMETHING but she never even tried. Of course given what Caedus has done to his other victims this is somewhat understandable. The scene where she's cradling him after he's dead was heartbreaking and I felt that that was a great way to show her regret and angst. Caedus: While I strongly disapprove of this entire series RUINING my favorite character, Caedus finally stops whining and letting his emotions get the best of him. He's still completely morally unacceptable, running 1984 style prisons, killing Isolder, darkening Tahiri, all with no remorse, but at least he's not killing willy nilly like the last few books. Plus his physical and force powers are absolutely unbelievable and could have been put to so much better use. His death as he warned Tenel Ka of the danger was gut wrenching as was the subsequent scene. The flashbacks and jokes: Corny and sentimental as some of them were, I loved the hearkenings back to the good old Jacen, the character who remains my favorite. I still feel like I can pretend that the books ended with TUF. The Solo Skywalker family: At least they're back together and stronger for it. I loved the scene in the blastboat before they shot Jaina out. And whatever anyone says, i think the solo parents have already expended so much grief on Jacen's behalf that they're sadness on seeing his body was more or less appropriate. Tahiri's Redemption: I hated her since Inferno but finally she gets it right. Tenel Ka: What little we saw of her, putting her throne at the disposal of the jedi and blasting the moffs was quite good. Ben Skywalker: At last a true jedi who can shoulder the burden, come back from the brink, and pull others back as well! If only he could've worked his magic on Jacen... THE NEUTRAL: The twins: Um? They were a welcome comic relief I'll give you that but they still seem a bit odd when you consider everything else that's going on. Jaina's personal life: Finally Zekk's over her and she admits her love for Jag but... I dunno, I just can't classify this as good. The Jedi Order: Way too ruthless and utilitarian for me, but at least they can let their emotions go when necessary, and they ended the war without taking over the entire galaxy or becoming sith. For now. The end of the war: Thank God it's over but, what happened? Did the Remnant's forces magically force the confederation to stop fighting? Why is everyone all the sudden in such a "let's hold hands" attitude, was Caedus really that successful? Daala? I don't know much about her but really? A war criminal and vicious imperial admiral is the only acceptable chief of state? Garm Bel Iblis? Admiral Niathal (What in the galaxy happened to her?) Allana: I feel like she could've been so much more pivotal in this series if we just got to see more of her. THE BAD: So many unanswered questions! Jacen's body? Zekk? Tenel Ka's reaction to Jacen's warning and death, that's a HUGE chunk we're missing there and we probably won't ever see it. Captain Nevil? Jacen finding out "Who his true enemies are" as well as finding out that Lumiya started and prolonged the war (We were somewhat promised that in Betrayal). Tahiri's beginning to her redemption? The new direction for the jedi order? Where are the mandalorians now that we've dragged them back into the EU? The nanokiller just seemed like a cop out. WTH did that come from? It's like an individual alpha red which can suddenly be produced in a day? All the SW heroes could be killed instantly if someone got their samples and released the killer on Coruscant. The Tahiri seduction scene. Ew. IT WAS TOO SHORT. The Anakin Solo duel just wasn't as exciting as either the Nickel one duel or the Inferno duel between Caedus and Luke. I don't really know why, rereading it I can start to have more appreciation for it but still. Was Prince Isolder's death really necessary? Was Shevu's? Does ANYONE on Coruscant feel any sort of anything about Caedus taking over the entire galaxy? Because no sense of rebellion among the GA's citizens was ever shown, they're pretty apathetic about anything but terrorism throughout the whole series. The series as a whole and what it did to Jacen sucked, but I thought it was awesome how they brought back some old characters and such. Overall Invincible gets an 8 because it was too short, left out a lot, but was still very emotional and did what it could after such a terrible series. I don't even know if I want to read Millenium Falcon after this, my love of the EU peaked at TUF.
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dark_jedi666 Registered: Feb '02	Date Posted: 5/16 12:39pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
	LOtF was a major letdown for me. Being a fan of the NJO I was hoping LOtF would solve the few problems I had with the NJO by being a shorter series. It didnt. That being said, I must say that Invincible did all it could to try and wrap things up, and it did a very good job of it IMO. The Good: - Luke, Han and Leia's role in the story. I loved how while they played an important role in the story, it was an important background role, and I feel that it is time for them to move into important background characters and let the youngsters have their moments. - Jaina vs Caedus Pts 1 & 2. I enjoyed both of their duels. The first one was good with Caedus being led to believe he is fighting Luke, and then his confusion when he sees Jaina. The second fight was a little short, but still exciting. The aftermath with Jaina holding her dead brother's body, head in her lap, and promising him he will live on in her memory was very emotional and well written IMO. Even though Jaina knew Caedus had to be stopped, it still showed she loved Jacen. - Ben's need to redeem and save Tahiri. This is the redemption story of LotF. Ben knowing what Tahiri has gone through, and knowing she can be saved just like he was. Then going about and redeeming her. Great! - Luke deciding on a future and doing everything he can to make that future happen. Grand Master indeed. The bad: -The length. It was a bit short, it could have been longer and could have delved into some things they left open. But even though I didnt think it could be done. Mr Denning was able to basically wrap up the story in that page span. -Daala. Whats the point? Why would everyone be okay with this mass murdering former Imperial warlong being GA COS. Couldnt they have made someone else COS? Even a new character? I didnt need to know what Daala was up to. The ugly: - Tahiri being a pedophile to get the job done. Gross. My rating : 9/10 -----signature----- Favorite Book: I, Jedi (Stackpole) Currently Reading: X-Wing: Isard's Revenge Up Next: I, Jedi Favorite Movie : Empire Strikes Back
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Robimus Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 5/17 4:15pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
	I've contributed some thoughts in the "spoiler" thread so I'll try to be as brief as I can in here. Darth Caedus came across very strong early in this book. That part I really enjoyed along with the further expansion of the Imperial Remnant. Han and C3PO were both a lot of fun to read, captured really well by Mr. Denning. The book turns bad for me in a hurry though. The Nanokillers essentially give the Imperial Remnant a heel turn I was completely dissapointed with. All of Ben's "sexy" scenes were totally out of place and poor. Creepy.......... Jaina killing her brother didn't quite have the emotional impact I would have liked it to. Then Jaina decides she'd rather leave Zekk lost in the mists than grab a ship and go looking for him. Han thinks Daala's "not that bad". Niathal is absent from the book, as is the Confederacy. It really shouldn't be up to the fan theory to decide what happened to all these characters. Thats the job of the authors. The deaths of Isolder and Shevu served very little purpose, esspecially with Tahiri redeemed a few pages later in the Shevu case. Caedus even has a moment of redemption before death. Allana ends up with Han and Leia. Well atleast she got a few years with her mom.....Anakin, Jacen and Jaina didn't even have that.(And if you doubt me reference The Crystal Star, The New Rebellion, etc.) Every villian in the universe got offed in this series with the exception of the One Sith who appeared earlier for no real reason. And to top it all off, Tarfang wasn't in this novel. Score: 3/10 At times I found this series to be very good(Bloodlines, Sacrifice and Inferno), but overall I think I expected and hoped for more of a spring board to greater things than the neatly packaged, predictable story we ended up with. -----signature----- I am forever seeking the damutek of Hooley Krekk Oh, woe! Oh, misery! Oh, unhappiness. Hooley Krekk where are you?
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beccatoria Title: 181st Imperial Discussion Group host Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 5/17 4:54pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers) - Date Edited: 5/17 5:26pm (2 edits total) Edited By: beccatoria
	I really have no idea how to even begin this review. The book provoked a very strong reaction in me, but whether or not I liked it, I find hard to tell. Whether or not the reaction I had was the reaction Troy Denning intended, I also find hard to tell. It's a very, very spare book, and with the exception of the epilogue, I think that works in its favour. There is nothing here that doesn't need to be here. Vader's surviving grandchildren and Tahiri - standing in for the loss and empty space left by Anakin Solo; every move on her journey informed by it - dance through the story, hunting each other and saving each other and killing each other. And Luke... Luke is where I really don't know where to start. With his eyes, blazing white? With dialogue that ends in, "mine...mine," in a totally different context but verbally identical to his sister's vision, all those years ago, of a Sith Lord trying to steal her children for the darkness? Truthfully, I don't think Denning was trying to foreshadow Luke's descent into darkness. I'm not interested in that story because it would have to end with his redemption and that would be cheap, especially in the face of past stories such as Dark Empire. But at the same time, for the first time in my EU-reading career, I believed there was a darkness, haunted and driven about Luke. I think that I saw in him Paul Muad'dib or Leto II from the DUNE series. Not a meglomaniacal evil overlord, but a tyrant. A title and an attitude that does not exist in the light/dark Jedi/Sith duality of the galaxy and so I...can't parse it properly in the context of the novel. I don't know. I just don't know. I know that Jacen Solo originally began this path because he turned around and murdered a friend because he couldn't see a future in which she survived that did not also include him killing his Uncle Luke. I know it's easy to say, "Luke would rather have died than seen Jacen as a Sith Lord." But how can we answer the question: What sort of future is it where it's better that Jacen end up killing Luke? How would that ever have come about? Was Jacen always destined to become dark, or did Luke need killing? I know that Luke is repeatedly portrayed in this novel as detached and intimidating. Is explicitly compared to a dejarik player - not in a tactical and practical sense, but from the perspective of his niece, the pawn. And what is the player to the pawn? The hand of god: nigh onmniscient, inscrutable, allpowerful. I know that I was infinitely and hugely relieved when I saw Jaina turning a critical eye on the Mandalorians, questioning their attitudes more roundly than she did in the last novel, choosing to discard their attitudes when she felt to keep them would stop her from being a Jedi. Repeatedly, Jaina makes choices to save people she "shouldn't" for cold, practical reasons. Or to try and save them. To jeopardise herself and her mission for Ben, for her parents, for dying Verpine she's never spoken to before. And these traits are good, positive things. And she ignores the Mandalorians when they tell her not to bother. And she ignores Luke. When - in his Blazing Eyes moment - he tells her the collateral damage and lives aren't hers to worry about. Or lectures her on attachment and killing while angry before dropping her into the space battle in her dropsuit. But Jaina is not Luke and Jacen is not Lumiya, and Luke's message seems horribly pointed and self-conscious, because Jaina isn't the one who has ever been looking forward to running Jacen down. And Luke is...inhuman. Not dark. I loved his smackdown of Boba, pointing out that Boba tried to use the Jedi as badly as the Jedi used his troopers. But I do feel that there's something unsettling and nauseous about Jaina having to treat her Jedi advice with the same kid gloves as the advice she receives from Boba Fett. Because that's what she does, in her dropsuit, on the battlefield. Make her own calls. Expressly ignore Luke's instructions the first time and follow them the second - and she is right. Denning is doing That Thing again. That Thing where I think - in isolation - this is a masterpiece of subtlety. Characterisation that unsettles me without my ever being able to point and say, "Here, this is what's wrong." A creepy, chilling undertone that hides effortlessly under the surface of a seemingly average novel. But then, the last few times he's done That Thing, those themes weren't really picked up on, those promises remained empty. Perhaps it's my faith in the direction of the EU that's hollow. Everything I'm reading points towards implosion. Something rotten in the state of the Alliance, and in the state of the Jedi Temple too. But that's in tension with the out-of-universe fact that I believe the authors are straight-jacketed into certain things, like, we can't ever make Luke a failure for too long; we can't have him die; he can't have a tragic ending, the Jedi must remain strong and Democracy must be paid lipservice as long as he lives. So I end up wondering...am I imagining this? If I'm not is there a point? Because as unsettling as my interpretation of this Rotten-ness is, it's more unsettling when it gets dropped utterly. Because it's still there in my mind, in the background, behind everyone's smiles. Regarding Ben, I've liked him for a long time, though I really, really don't think he's ready to be a Knight. Mind you, my faith in Luke's judgement isn't huge right now. You know the other thing I wonder is how they'll handle Ben as he grows up. I always wondered how they'd handle grown-up Anakin Solo. It's...so much easier to be the idealistic hero when you're young. It's Luke's core problem. He started being the Old Man when the core of his personality was the Young Hero. Jacen was finally, finally terrifying. Because they dialled back the insanity and made it quieter. Because here is the Sith Lord we were promised in Betrayal. Pensive, sorrowful, so far gone, he passed through madness and found a quiet space on the other side. I like this Jacen because he refuses to be categorised simply. He loves Allana absolutely and unconditionally and truthfully, and treasures that pain because it is real and because it strengthens him and because it reminds him of why he did this. But that love doesn't make him a good man or prevent him from being a murderer or a Sith. When Jaina disabled him so thoroughly he knew he would be unable to defend himself from her final attack, he chose to use his last moment to save his daughter. Selflessly. But that doesn't mean that he became a good man. It doesn't mean that if Jaina had hesitated (and she only realised what he was doing as she was killing him), and not killed him, he wouldn't have used his next move to force-blast her to death as she feared. I love that he isn't simple. People talk about using love as redemption, and that's a great and powerful thing, but Vader denied that love, and when he refound it, and saved his son, was liberated and chose to cast off the shackles of the dark side. Jacen never stopped loving Allana. And never considered his love of her to be at odds with his Sith persona. That he died for her doesn't mean that he repented. I don't know what it means. I don't know if he repented. I don't know anything. I know that Jaina, holding her dead twin's corpse, affected me more than I thought it would. I know that I feel a great deal of this series lacked in execution what only, really, Betrayal and Invincible managed to capture. I know that a good end novel doesn't redeem the whole thing, however much I wish it did. I know that I feel like this whole series was written to get to the scene with Jaina holding her dead twin, who she just killed, quietly insane with grief. And you know what? I bloody well agree that that's a powerful enough scene that it serves as its own justification for writing a story that leads to it. But it doesn't justify a 9 book series. For that, you need more, and Legacy of the Force didn't have it. But it doesn't stop that scene from being powerful. I know that I loved the complexities that defied categorisation in almost every character, and I know that I hope I'm not making them up and that Luceno will continue with the theme of confusion and loss and an unnameable something being gone from the galaxy: everything out of balance. And finally, I know that I will not touch that Daala-as-CoS stuff with a BARGE POLE because I truthfully and honestly believe that if the "thunderous applause" was not a deliberate nod to Palpatine's election, it is the most nonsensical, offensive, surreal, bizarre and stupid development I have ever seen in the EU. That even if there is some weird chain of events that makes this development believable in-universe, the fact that it was never explained to the reader renders it moot. If there is no irony, IT IS AWFUL. And if I were giving this novel a score, it would lose a millionty points just for this. I am, however, not giving it a score because I hate scoring things. And I'm not currently confident in translating my opinion of this book into a number (as you can tell from the deep ambivalence expressed here). I may come back and score once I'm more certain, but I thought I'd share my review now. So I will say: it made me think a lot more than I was expecting. I'm still not sure I like it but I think I might actually love this book in isolation, even as I fear for what the context of wider canon will do to all the bits I love. So there. -----signature----- legatus imperatoris britanniæ superior REMEMBER: CLOAK OF DECEPTION DISCUSSION STARTS IN SEPTEMBER! Han's a girl, so I got a Golden Ewok.
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GoA Registered: Dec '07	Date Posted: 5/17 5:48pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers) - Date Edited: 5/17 5:56pm (1 edits total) Edited By: GoA
	As a stand alone novel, I would likely score this book high. The writing was top notch, and I found myself unable to put the book aside, instead choosing to turn page after page, and kept telling myself "just one more chapter", every time I had decided it was time to put it aside. I've always been a Jaina Solo fan, so I was glad to see her get a "starring" role for once in this series. No, I'm not talking the Jaina we got in Revelation, where she just sat around nodding dumbly at everything the God-like Mandalorians said to her. I'm talking about the Jaina Solo that has her own mind, but who has also matured enough to see the wisdom in advice that others have given her. I'm talking about the Jaina Solo that understands her weaknesses, but also isn't afraid to act on her strengths. I'm talking about the Sword of the Jedi we've been promised for a while now. The duels between Jaina and her brother were well done. Sure, some of the injuries they sustained might be a bit over the top, but overall, Denning did a fantastic job of describing the fights. The first one I'd rank better, simply because it was longer, and simply because it displayed more of Caedus' power. But both did the job, although I'm docking minor points for Caedus not seeming as uber-powerful the second time around. Maybe it was his injuries, or maybe it was his distraction over the nanokillers and his daughter being affected by them. But he just didn't come across as powerful as he was in round one of their battle. The scene, when she kills him, and she cradles him in her lap ... it got to me. It was at that point that I was able to put aside my disdain for much of this series, and actually just say "Wow ... that is so sad." The scene was well-written, and it was truly one of the few tear-jerkers that this entire series had. Mara's death doesn't count, for me, as a tear jerker, because it seemed such a silly and meaningless death. Speaking of Caedus, this is the Darth Caedus we should have had throughout the series. I've been very vocal in my disdain for the direction they (the authors/editors) took him after about book 3, and found myself often frustrated, bordering on furious, with the Saturday morning cartoon villain he had become. But this book, this was how I pictured a powerful Sith Lord to be. The Caedus from Betrayal and Invincible would have been an absolute pleasure to read about over the course of a 9-book series. It's just too bad that for roughly 6 or 7 of those books, we got Wile E. Coyote. Ben Skywalker has grown on me. At the beginning of the series, he annoyed me. I know, I know, I was probably being too hard on a barely-turned-teenager, but his naive attitude, following his idol Jacen around, doing whatever he was told by Jacen, and acting like an obnoxious brat to his parents (more so to his dad), made me want to wish someone would kill him off. But as the series went on, Ben started to get better. And in Invincible, Ben seemed to be one of the few Jedi to "get" what being a Jedi meant. I know he was referring to Tahiri, not Jacen, but when he questioned when do you know when someone can no longer be redeemed, and when he simply would not take an answer at face value, that to me illustrated the problems I had with the Jedi in this book. IMO, Ben was the only one who acted 100% like a Jedi throughout the novel. Which brings me to Luke. On one hand, I did love his powers in this book. Finally, FINALLY, we got to see a powerful Luke. Finally, we got to see a decisive Luke, who was proactive pretty much from the get go. So, that much, I enjoyed about him. But what put me off, was just how ... distant, how cold he seemed. I honestly don't know how to feel about a Luke Skywalker that acted so ... I can't even really describe it. I just hope this isn't a foreshadow to him going Dark. I know Del Rey seems to like to rehash ideas, but turning Luke dark again would probably be the nail in the coffin for me ever buying another Star Wars book. With regards to the rest of the Jedi Master (and Jedi in general), I really wish we'd seen them in action more. I think this is one of the main reasons I enjoyed the NJO. I got to see a wide variety of Jedi in action, not just random names being dropped every dozen or so pages. Especially the newer generation, like Tesar, Lowie, and even the Horn kids. They're not really characters in this series, they're just names to fill up a page. I was so glad Denning put the Mandalorians in their place. I can't tell you how much I was fuming after reading Revelation, so seeing the opposite this novel, it brought an instant smile to my face. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind the Mandalorians, but I'm not a fan of them being made out to be unstoppable war machines that they were in Revelation. When Caedus handled that squad of Mandos, and then busted the armor of one of them with the hilt of his lightsaber ... pure awesomeness. What I did not like, and what I will be dropping major points for in my score, is how this book really didn't tie up many of the ongoing plots in the series. Like I said from the outset, as a stand-alone novel, it was a fantastic read. But as the finale to a 9-book series, I think it dropped the ball, simply by leaving us, the reader, with so many unanswered questions, or simply so many "huh?" moments. Why did they pick Daala to be the new CoS? I don't get this move at all. Even if it's to set up something they have planned for the future, why couldn't they have waited to add this later on, when enough explanation was given for it? It just seemed so utterly ridiculous and out of place, that I can't help but shake my head at the people making these decisions. Wasn't there a war going on? I mean, you know, the whole Corellia wanting independence thing was a big part of why there was a war in the first place, right? There was no on-screen resolution for this. None whatsoever. All we're basically told is, over the course of about a half dozen pages, that everyone is all nice-nice with each other, and is tired of war and decided peace is the way to go. Seriously? The fact that we had no resolution to the actual conflict, makes me wonder if the editors didn't plan this series out properly, and realized once they got in so far that they had so much more story to tell, but so few books to do it in. This was inexcusable, and left me with a bitter taste in my mouth. There just seemed to be so much left up to the imagination of the reader. No, I don't expect them to do a connect-the-dots for me for every single thing that occurred in the series, but the resolution for a bunch of plot points isn't much to ask. Tycho? What happened to him? The tassels? Was that simply just a one book thing, with no real follow up? The dark figure talking to Lumiya in Betrayal. Who was that? And why did we never see him again, or even get a mention of what that whole scene meant. The sheer number of dropped plots in this series makes me wonder whether they actually kept a running tab on the ideas they'd presented, or if they basically just forgot about them after each subsequent book. The nanovirus killer (or whatever it was called) was something I didn't like. It just seems like such a cheap, easy way to be able to "wipe out" a large group of individuals, without having to put much thought and creativity into doing so. Some random things that I liked: Allana surviving, the Zel sisters, the quotes from Jacen's childhood leading into each chapter. Invincible Score [this novel as a finale]: 7.5/10 Legacy of the Force Score [the entire series' final score]: 3/10 -----signature----- Everything I tell you is a lie
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iolo_the_bard Registered: Jun '05	Date Posted: 5/17 5:50pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers) - Date Edited: 5/17 6:02pm (1 edits total) Edited By: iolo_the_bard
	Well, I'll keep my review somewhat short and relatively to the point. I regret that my thinking style is basically a storm of tangential chaos, so I don't have everything as neatly divided as most other reviews do. My biggest complaint about this book was the length. The no-nonsense, tell the story approach was wonderful until the ending. I'm not sure if Denning was operating under a page limit or something, but the book seemed to cram 100 pages of story into about 50 toward the endgame. Everything was perfunctorily wrapped up in a bow...a rather sloppy bow. For example, what the sith is up with Daala....or must we now call her Natasi? I like what her character has become over the course of Revelation and Invincible, but it seems rather out of the blue that the people of the New Republic would forget what she did in the past. I know the New Republic and later the GFFA accepted Imperial defectors into the military and political system, but the Admiral who was in charge of the Maw installation?? Well, maybe in the post-LotF novels it will make more sense. Moving on to Jacen, I'm SO glad that this is how he went out. As crazy as he was in Revelation, I honestly wouldn't have been all that surprised if he had died because he thought he was so powerful he could breathe vacuum and stepped out an airlock. Caedus here was a much more balanced character. His delusions of omnipotence didn't make him stark raving mad as they did in Revelation, and Denning finally managed to reconcile the "I love Allana" and "I must not love Allana" parts of his personality. Speaking of Allana, why did Tenel Ka give her to the Solos? I think the move has great potential, but I don't really understand why it was made...kinda bad for a book. The introduction of Tenel Ka's cousins was abrupt, makes good setup for future stuff but, rather like the Hallows in Harry Potter, not the kind of thing you want to dump on readers in the final book of a series. I'm so glad that the Mandos were finally used by someone else besides Traviss, but as much as I wanted to see them have weaknesses...its just really inconsistent. Traviss had beskar be the EU's version of Unobtainium, invincible and known only to Mandos. As overpowered as it was, that was how it was. Now with Denning describing beskar being breakable (not just by shatterpoint, but also by simple laser blasts, grenades, etc.) it just rather jarring. Shatterpoint was a great introduction, but seemed misinterpreted. I have NO problem with shatterpoint being used to break physical material, but there was only one throwaway line to shatterpoint being used on situations. Also, after Jaina learned shatterpoint, I don't recall her ever needing to use it. It would've been nice if in the final dual with Caedus if she had known the moment of the final strike because she saw the shaterpoint of the situation. Luke was...odd in this book. I like the direction his character is going, but the fact that he can casually say "Oh, by the way, I know shatterpoint...wanna learn?" was kinda Deus ex machina-ish. Speaking of Deus ex machina, how 'bout that nanovirus? So it has a 100% effectivness, can be tailored to species or individuals, can attack on a whim, and is irreversible. Also can be produced overnight. I think I've said enough on that. Great moments: -Luke letting Han vent on the Moffs -Jedi council already deciding that Jaina is the one that will hunt down Caeuds -Explanation of flow-walking Not so great moments: -Tahiri's seduction scene (I think Denning didn't do the math on Tahiri's age) -Daala becoming CoS -The endi (see what I did there?) Moments that should have been -Wrap-up on the civil war -Resolution with Tycho and the Antilles family -Mention of the One Sith My score of Invincible is a 6.75/10. A good book with some wonderful moments, but the abrupt ending, the plot points that weren't touched, and the number of "Bwuaaa?" moments drags the score down a bit. Also, I know this isn't Denning's fault, but the incongruity between the styles of the 3 authors made the series feel disjointed. Frankly, if they wanted to do something new and innovative, they should've had all three authors write trilogies, all taking place at the same time, but being self-contained, sort of how the Coruscant Nights books are being described as three independent novels forming a loose trilogy. Legacy of the Force as a whole had SO much potential and up until Inferno, I had high hopes. The last few books of the series seemed to be rushed and there were so many things that could've been discussed but weren't. I give LotF, as an entire series a 5/10. They tried, they really did, but it just kinda fell flat. It had the opposite effect of NJO...NJO had SO many books and went on for SO long. I didn't get into it til after the fact, but right about Destiny's Way, I was ready for it to be over. Legacy could have used one more book...maybe an endcap piece by Luceno...and perhaps that's what the upcoming Falcon book will be, but I think that the story about the Falcon and the "approaching threat" will overshadow any Legacy wrap-up, much like the Killiks overshadowed any NJO wrap-up.
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AnnLouise Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 5/17 6:51pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
	Could there be a thread rating the entire LOTF series; I think it'd be interesting, and wonder how the whole series would rate as opposed to single titles. -----signature----- "You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man" Matty Walker - Body Heat (1981) http://thehungersite.com http://www.endabuse.org http://www.librarything.com Catalog Your Books Online Violence Against Women Is Always Wrong
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NewStaryknight Registered: Dec '07	Date Posted: 5/17 8:35pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers) - Date Edited: 5/17 9:18pm (1 edits total) Edited By: NewStaryknight
	beccatoria posted: And Luke is...inhuman. Not dark. I loved his smackdown of Boba, pointing out that Boba tried to use the Jedi as badly as the Jedi used his troopers. How can Luke be acting inhuman and not be acting dark? I don't know why we're worrying about this. To me, Luke proved he still had his values in tact when he told Han that it wouldn't really do any harm to kill one or two Moffs, but then asked, "Will it make you feel any better?". Luke of course knew the answer but wanted to see if Han knew as well.
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Sauron Registered: Dec '99	Date Posted: 5/17 11:05pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
	I'll have to give this book a 3/10. It was pretty obvious they rushed it out. I found a typo right in the first chapter. The whole LotF series felt like they had something more epic in scope, then it dragged right in the middle by making Jacen the main bad guy. The other Sith haven't even been mentioned in the last 3 books. This novel was really just one long, rushed ending, especially the epilogue. Fel being placed as leader of the Remnant makes NO sense, nor does Daala leader of the Alliance. Where are their credentials? Daala is a war criminal who has been in exile forever. Fel was just a line soldier; would have been much better for him to propose to Jaina and have them go off and live somewhere quietly. The fight between Jaina and Jacen wasn't very epic. I was just glad that he was finally dead in the end. I do not believe he redeemed himself in the end. One small act of goodness doesn't make up for a heart that was 99% evil. He had to die for the good of the galaxy. Tahiri has been TOTALLY out of character the last two books. She went to total evil in such a short time. What is the deal with the good guys not being willing to kill the bad guys? Ben should have killed Tahiri when he escaped her torture. She had just murdered his best friend and was trying to kill him. Why can you slaughter countless stormtroopers and others on the way to the enemy leader, but when you reach the leader himself you either have to capture him or LET HIM GO?!! This is WAR, people! Things don't happen that way in real life! We don't wipe out every terrorist in sight but take every possible effort to capture Bin Laden using non-lethal means. If we have a chance to take him out, we will take it! That is life! That goes double for the Moffs. They would have been captured by the Hapans and tried for war crimes, most likely executed. Luke yet again proves unable to do what is good for the galaxy. In a sense, the Light side is far more twisted and evil than the Dark side. If you let an enemy live and they go out and slaughter more people, then YOU are inadvertently responsible for their deaths. What, is the life of a Force-sensitive more important than thousands of other people? The Jedi think they are superior to normal beings? The Light-siders are just as cruel and evil in the end than any Dark-sider. It's all well and good if you're redeemed from the dark side, but you still have to pay for your crimes. The law is the law. Tahiri will be going to jail for the rest of her life, as will the Moffs - if they're not executed for war crimes. In all, a fast read but a disappointing end to a series that started out with lots of promise. -----signature----- Sauron Owner/Admin http://www.newimperium.org Chief Editor http://www.jedijournals.com
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NewStaryknight Registered: Dec '07	Date Posted: 5/18 1:54am Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
	Zorrixor posted: I was so pleased with Ben when he was talking about redemption and the rest were all just shaking their heads. Luke didn't really shake his head. He admired Ben for it. He's just doesn't think its possible for Jacen because he denies redemption multiple times in the previous books. Luke hasn't given up his old philosophy entirely.
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Sinrebirth Title: Hierarch and Chancellor of EUCity Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 5/18 1:58am Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers) - Date Edited: 5/18 2:00am (2 edits total) Edited By: Sinrebirth
	beccatoria posted: Jacen was finally, finally terrifying. Because they dialled back the insanity and made it quieter. Because here is the Sith Lord we were promised in Betrayal. Pensive, sorrowful, so far gone, he passed through madness and found a quiet space on the other side. That is what happened. It wasn't the back and forth between insane, it was Jacen crossing the threshold beyond madness and finding sanity. And that's terrifying, in and of itself. A Sith Lord that, fundamentally, loves. It's as if Padme never died, and Vader continued with her, alive, albeit not on his side. Here's my review: I agree with all the statements. It is rushed. Tahiri is yucky. It is a mildly confusing ending. Daala and Jag and the Imperial Mission are incredibly slapped on additions. 'Thunderous Applause' is worrying. The entirety of Luke's scene's are chilling. Jacen is downright unstoppable. His redemption hits a cold place inside your heart and makes it churn. The Confederation should have been explained. Niathal should have been in it. I'm surprised Bwua'ta, Darklighter and Celchu remained on Caedus' side. But, then again - I'm not surprised. Celchu was an Imperial. Bwua'ta made a vow. Darklighter has knocked heads with Jedi in the past. But, isn't the ending what LotF made it to be? In a Jedi Coalition made up of Daala's Maw Irregular fleet by circumstance and not choice, including the Co-Chief-of-State Niathal who deposed Omas and dutifully handed a Sith Lord the keys, and then of course involving Wookie's and Jedi, both of which are persecuted and on the verge of complete genocide at varying moments during this war - In a Confederation made of Corellians and Bothans willing to use secret assault fleets, condone assassination, condone a starbuster being used, murder a sovereign Queen and her daughter, engineer a galactic war to make themselves independent - In a Galactic Alliance which supports the genocide of the Wookies, the destruction at Fondor, and the command of a madman - With an Imperial Remnant led by Moff's whom we hate but are key to the entire entity not splitting off into a dozen civil wars that would make this war eternal - With the Mandalorians led by a ruthless Mandalore that is playing several tiers above his weight and expecting his pure ferocity and murderous objectives to succeed - With the Dark Lady of the Sith taking a genuine conflict and spinning it into a galactic war while training her apprentice to win it, but literally sacrificing herself in a completely opposing Sith mentality - How could the end be anything but confusing, and anything more than a resolution that simply said - We no longer want to fight. When everyone who did - Sal-Solo, Caedus, Niathal, Gejjen, Sadran, countless others - is dead? I can't argue with the characterisation, with the style, with the story. I'll admit, Star Wars should not have used syringes stuck in Jacen's face. It's too horrific to entertain. As is blood gushing from Jacen's arm, or the tendon on his leg being snapped bloodily, or Jaina's arm revoltingly snapping, or a cut releasing something from inside her she'd rather not think about. For the brutality of the book, and that alone, it loses points, but everything else is so uncertain, and so unpleasant, and so powerful, that it receives a 9/10. I hate the ending, and I love it entirely. -----signature----- Sey's Sinre The Missing Chapters of LotF: Invincible http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=28933751&brd=10477&replies=10 Chapter 2.5 is up now! Featuring Wedge, Dician, Niathal, Daala, Valin and Syal!
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Havac Title: Lit Mod of War Against the Aztecs Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 5/18 1:23pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
	Average score: 277.74/37 = 7.51 -----signature----- Slaughter is the best medicine Recipient of Thrawn McEwok's Sexually Ambiguous Tusken Raider™ and a Special Golden Ewok™ "Reality doesn't care if you believe it." - Boba Fett
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The2ndQuest Title: : -Games -LACWAC -Lit Mod of Death Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 5/18 5:31pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
	Wow, so, yeah, just finished the book... I had to blurt out a loud "WHAT THE FRELL?!" at the whole Daala thing, and I'm a little disappointed Caedus doesn't live to be a threat or lost pentinent, but overall the book had a great pace and a very focused plotline. The majority of characters were done justice- even Tahiri's situation is starting to recover, even if her fall was unbelivable to me in Revelations. I think my only true disappointment with the book is that Niathal is kinda swept under the carpet after being built up all series-long and finally being somewhat heroic in the last book. But her forces are defeated in an offscreen moment referred to offhandedly. I was really let down by that. Also Daala didn't really play much of a role in this at all after her introduction last book, and I would have expected at least some Daala subplot to justify her COS appointment at the end- but her presence is sorta just outta left field. Poor Niathal. It just feels like there was a Niathal/Daala subplot excised from the story. Overall, like most of Denning's books, the pace and intensity make it a real page turner, so it's definitely a really good read, and it has several poignant moments...though it feels a bit anticlimactic, unfortunately. It's not a TUF. But still pretty solid, but I gotta deduct points for it's function within the series. However, @ Battlesun Odyssey 8.5/10 -----signature----- K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker? Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..." "If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
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