Author Topic: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
Darth_Fungible 
Registered: Mar '08
23781_Darth Tater
Date Posted: 5/20 11:35am Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
8.5/10

The Good:

Luke showed us why he is the Grand Master, with his chess-vision game with Caedus.

Jaina was believably shown as the Sword of the Jedi (with Luke on the handle via his force projection).

Caedus…dead…finally.

The Bad:

This galactic war ended far too quickly and neatly. ½ point deduction

Daala………….No!!!! 1 full point deduction

 

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fanboyskywalker 
Registered: Apr '08
42759_Plo Koon
Date Posted: 5/20 4:09pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
I had high hopes for this book being such a big Denning fan. There was some really cool opportunities with this series to set the stage for the future of the SW EU in an interesting way, but after finishing the book down I was left sad, hopeless and underwhelmed by not only this novel, but with the future of Star Wars as a whole.

In fact, I started LOTF very late in the game, read through all the books at an alarming rate, and in between the wait for this one to come out started reading many of the other EU books I had missed since I stopped reading them after TUF (a perfect series closer IMO). I was so impressed with Denning that I went and picked up the DN trilogy, which I dug for it's spirit and the sense of fun Denning seemed to be having with the characters. But after finishing Invincible I can't even bring myself to read anything else SW right now -- especially the remaining PT books I missed because I'm afraid they will be as equally depressing as this one.

I still think Denning is a great writer and plotter, and part of me wonders if he was saddled with an agenda, but wasn't Luceno, as well, with TUF and look how that turned out. It was interesting that this book was told from Jaina's perspective almost entirely when the normal route would have been to go big, epic and sprawling for a series finale. The thinking must have been that they wanted to keep it an intimate family story about a girl killing her own brother. Frankly, Jaina should have been more heavily used earlier on in the series so it wasn't so out of nowhere that she became such a big part of it. To me it felt a bit like they were trying to tell the story from her POV to capitalize on what Stover did with Jacen in traitor. That and, like I said, keep it small. Which would have been fine if it had played up all the twin bond stuff and given us a real emotional showdown -- some good talk between them. I wanted them to argue, talk the way Luke and Vader and Obi-Wan and Anakin did in the movies. I wanted them to bring up there dead brother. Why did no one ever try to use Jacen's emotions against him the way Luke did Vader in Jedi? There was so few scenes with Jacen and his family in this series that when someone finally confronts him it's over just as it is beginning. And it was almost too easy for Jaina to come to the decision to kill Jacen. Too easy for everyone to just write him off because it took so long for him to emerge as a true Sith Lord so there was a sense of him just coming into his own as a villain, which is why his death seems so abrupt and untimely. I guess they were going for the whole they stopped him before it was too late vibe? I just took it as finally they made Jacen a cool villain who did cool villanious stuff... well, there goes that.

Things that were done well: the blood-trace, Jacen commanding the Moff's fear and respect, Tahiri being groomed and at the same time struggling with what she was becoming. Denning made it read unpredictable, even though in the end it ended up being the easiest way out.

Things that I didn't like so much: the action scenes ran a bit long (the scene with the pod being launched into Jacen's ship was a little wordy), how Daala became the front runner for COS and Han being okay with that given their history; Luke placing Jag as head of the Empire (???), Zekk goes missing; the lack of resolution, specifically what happened to Jacen's body; killing Jacen. He never stood a chance. Finally, Ben and Tahiri. I really felt he was taking Anakin Solo's place with the whole trying to redeem her bit. It would have been better to have Anakin return and attempt that himself.

It also bugged me that the second Jacen died they went into the really long Ben/Tahiri redemption chapter so quickly, as if now that he was dead he didn't matter anymore. And what about Tenel Ka's reaction to Jacen sacrificing himself to save her and Allana?

It's crazy to me that 2 out of three Solo children have died with so much potential ahead of them. Why not kill Corran or Kyle who are getting older and there stories are behind them? Jaina just seems so much less interesting without her twin brother. There was more at stake emotionally with the two of them as one was always so invested in the other through their twin bond. The way one would react to what the other was doing. And Ben is now pretty much the last of the male Legacy? So it's Ben, Jaina, Tahiri and Allana. When did this become such a girl's club?

I don't know how much more I can read of SW if it's going to continue down this dark path. Everyone loses and with the Legacy comics it sounds like the novels are only going to get worse. Why are they doing this? It's not that I'm not all for the happy-go-lucky no one ever gets hurt Bantam era, but there has to be some happy medium.

I give this book a 5.0/10.

 

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Randy1012 
Registered: Jan '07
44112_Cade Skywalker
Date Posted: 5/20 5:40pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
I suppose I should start off by saying that Troy Denning is one of my favorite authors currently involved in the EU. Yes, I even liked Dark Nest, for the most part. tongue As with Dark Nest, I liked Invincible for the most part, but it wasn't as satisfying an ending as I'd hoped it would be.

The Good

Jaina Solo gets some time in the spotlight and finally becomes the Sword of the Jedi. She uses the lessons learned from the Mandalorians, but is careful not to become like them, and quickly gets over the sickening fangirl worship we saw from her in Revelation.

Speaking of Mandalorians, Denning thankfully knocks them back down to where they belong. I am so tired of the freaking Mandos, and the Mando worship. I actually like Mirta Gev, but the Mandalorians as a whole are just such a pain, infinitely boring, and offer little of value to the overall universe. I'm sure Karen Traviss will do her darndest to reverse some of what happened in Invincible, but thank you, Mr. Denning, for at least giving me one book where the Mandos were actually used well.

Another thing I like about Denning is he knows how to use Han, Leia, C-3PO, and R2-D2. These four characters are often left by the wayside nowadays, but you can tell that Troy really likes them all. What happened to Threepio and Artoo? They're supposed to be the two elements that link all of this together. No matter what happens to the Skywalkers/Solos, those two droids should always be there in the thick of it.

Ben Skywalker. What can I say? He's really turning into a man worthy of his father's legacy. This, right here, is the future of the Jedi Order. Like his father, he's seen what the dark side can do to you, and he's become a better person because of it.

Jacen's cheesy jokes and the flashbacks to his and Jaina's childhood. These were wonderful additions by Denning. They illustrated how far Jacen had fallen by showing us the kind-hearted, selfless young man, filled with such promise, that he used to be. I loved this part of the book.

All the ties to Legacy. It's time that the novel line starts connecting the dots between itself and the present-day of the EU, and I thought Denning laid down some of that foundation very well in this book. Jagged Fel is left to put the Imperial Remnant back together, and I expect he'll do a much better job than anyone, even Luke, could have anticipated. Jaina got pretty dark here, darker than a Jedi should probably be. It looks like the burden of being the Sword of the Jedi will make her lose faith in the Jedi and drive her towards Fel's new Empire, and towards creating the Imperial Knights. Fine by me.

The Bad

While I appreciated Denning's brevity and how he discarded a lot of the useless fluff that's permeated this series, the book still felt too short and too rushed, especially at the end. It could have used another ten pages or so to more satisfactorily wrap the storyline up and give the readers a better sense of what happened with the rest of the war, rather than making it all seem like it ended so abruptly.

The final battle between Jaina and Caedus. The first fight scene was pure awesome. The latter, not so much. It was too abrupt and way, way too graphic. Brutality doesn't bother me in most cases, but stuff like what Denning gave us in that fight doesn't make me think of Star Wars.

I'm a big believer (at least when it comes to Star Wars) in the redemption of its villains. Some, like Palpatine, choose to go way beyond redemption, but most of SW's villains have some tiny chance of being redeemed, and I think Caedus was one of them. I'm not saying I don't think he should have died--I was fine with Jaina killing him. However, I think it would have been a better, and maybe a bit more poignant, end if he'd realized the error of his ways and tried to send Jaina after the Moffs and Tahiri to save Allana before he died of his injuries.

On that note, the nanovirus. I hated this part, it was too fast and too convenient. The Moffs should have just used some random poison, rather than that weird genetic virus that could be developed way too quickly and had a 100% effectiveness against even the smallest trace of certain types of DNA. It was terrible. Plus, if the Moffs had used a random poison/virus, my preferred ending would have worked a bit better, with a battered Jaina rushing to stop the Moffs and save her brother's child. Oh well, c'est la vie...

Chief of State Daala. What...the...kriff? It was bad enough that she came back under the circumstances that she did in Revelation. The only reason I can think that TPTB would put a war criminal like her in charge of the Galactic Alliance is to help widen the division between the Jedi and the galaxy at large that we see in Legacy. Otherwise, this move makes absolutely no sense.

In closing, this book typifies Legacy of the Force as a whole, in that it's well-written and full of promise and potential, but also very disappointing and not as satisfying as it could have been. I enjoyed it, for the most part, but it could have been so much better.

7.0/10

 

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Alpha-Red 
Registered: Apr '04
18200_TIE Fighter
Date Posted: 5/20 5:57pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
Bunch of random thoughts so I'll just bullet-point them.

-I felt like Darth Caedus ultimately went out with more of a whimper than a bang and it feels simultaneously appropriate, yet underwhelming.
-I would have thought that Jaina and the Mandalorians would be working together more effectively instead of head-butting against each other while in the line of fire.
-I'm not sure I like the depiction of the Imperial armed forces. I would have thought they'd ditch the Stormtrooper armor already in favor of something else? I always thought the Imperial Navy trooper looked more impressive.
-Boarding the Anakin Solo is way too easy.
-The setting of the biodisposal pit is very reminiscent of Mustafar....very nice for final duels.
-Luke messing around with Caedus was very cool.

I'll give it an 8.6.

 

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Havac 
Title: Lit Mod of Awayness
Registered: Sep '05
13743_Han Solo
Date Posted: 5/20 7:19pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
Average score: 388.34/52 = 7.47

 

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AnnLouise 
Registered: Jul '05
24062_Anakin
Date Posted: 5/21 7:55am Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers) - Date Edited: 5/21 8:06am (2 edits total) Edited By: AnnLouise
Had to wait for spousal unit to check this out from work, but it was a fast read.
This may explain what I thought was missing from Invincible - when Jaina's holding CadJacens body (which must be gross, with her broken arm and him almost sliced in half at chest level), I missed having some POV from CadJacen during the final duel, or in his dying moments. We found out what he was doing from Jaina's POV, but I didn't like getting that info secondhand, as it were. Why not go into his head, as he's going out?

So - I'd give Invincible 7.5 out of 10. If it'd been Book 5 or 6, I'd rate it higher, maybe 8 or 8.5. On it's own Invincible was good, but as the end of a 9 book series chronicling the descent and death of a major character - not so much. It's a feeling I've had a the end of many a mystery novel - after pages of buildup, you get "it was Professor Plum in the Library with the Rope". Or "GeeThisWasFunOopsWeHaveToWindItUpHeresTheKillerBye"
Does this wind up the story? Yes. Does it wind up a saga? To my mind, not satisfactorily.
At least it's not as jarring when you get this type of ending after a few hundred pages of one story, as opposed to many hundreds of pages in several books.

 

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marmkid 
Registered: Apr '01
Date Posted: 5/21 2:05pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
i'd give it a 8.5 out of 10

i actually really liked the ending. i didnt want Jacen to turn out to be a complete monster with no morals left in him at all, it was never set up well enough for that to be the case.
i like how he actually was still in there somewhere, and was able to have at least a last second attempt at coming back. but its true, that it would have been cheap for him to be redeemed completely and live.
it is sort of a tragic ending, yet what he wanted to happen sort of did. i still dont know how i feel about that, but i am leaning towards liking it. it was very sad and i think appropriately so.

i think this last book, or at least parts of it, redeemed the whole series. Jacen's ending does give you at least a sense of him being just so powerful, like Anakin, and wanting to make things perfect that he just goes way too far, kind of goes insane a bit, and comes back right at the end. through the middle books of the series, i didnt get the feeling that what he was doing was really for the good of the galaxy or his family. but at the end of this book, you kind of get that idea.
very enjoyable i thought

 

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CooperTFN 
Title: TF.n EU Staff Emeritus
Registered: Jul '99
6518_Tycho
Date Posted: 5/21 3:39pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
I was grinning like a fool by the end - let's just leave it at that. 10/10

 

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YodaKenobi 
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered: May '03
23685_Anakin
Date Posted: 5/21 4:43pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
Becca's review is dead on. I walked away with mixed feelings about the book as well. There was a lot to love about it and it was a million times better than Revelation, but it did fall short in several respects.

Overall, I liked it.

Heres my TFN Staff review

2.6/4 works out to 6.5/10.

I'm a hard grader.

 

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ezekiel22x 
Registered: Aug '02
42120_General Kael
Date Posted: 5/21 5:22pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
Denning's recent novels have been a lot like LotF as a whole: not bad per se, but not substantial enough for me to really consider the text undeniably worthwhile.

On the plus side, I very much appreciate that the basic SW novel structure was jazzed up a bit here with the joke chapter headings as well as the three small Jaina flashback sections. Both techniques added a much needed dose of introspective melancholy that helped make the twilight of Jacen Solo's life more memorable than it otherwise would have been. Though the primary import of the jokes was to bring to mind the innocent happiness of a life before violence and war tore it apart, I also appreciate that many of these moments exhibited thematic significance towards Jacen's plight. For instance:

posted:
What's the difference between a lightsaber and a glowrod? A lightsaber impresses girls!


Yes, it's something a fourteen year old boy might say to get a laugh. However, taking into consideration that Jacen became a Sith because he believed this mantle was the only way to coerce the galaxy into submitting towards his influence and his needs, the quip serves the duel purposes of nostalgia as well as eerie symbolic parallelism. For another example:

posted:
I heard two droids talking the other day. The first one asked, "Did you beat the Wookie at sabacc?" And the second said, "Yes, but it cost me an arm and a leg."



The significance is obvious here, as Star Wars has long worked with the motif of severed appendages as physical prices to pay on the way to either spiritual enlightenment or philosophical decay.

The Jaina flashback sequences served a similar role in simultaneously striving to pay homage to the past while also repainting that same time frame in an unsettling light thanks to the events of the present. Being a rather ardent NJO fan, I especially liked the section taking place on the Ralroost where Jaina mourned her fallen Rogue wing-mate, Anni Capstan. Once again, this moment proved Denning as a writer who respects established EU history enough to not only nod towards a small moment long gone, but also to directly bring it back in a manner that impacts the present. Here we're reminded nicely of Jaina's – of any Jedi's burden – burden to carry when comrades, family or not, fall victim to galactic turmoil.

On a line by line level, unfortunately Denning doesn't flourish quite as noticeably when it comes to creative prose. It was impossible to keep track of how many times a character's eyes "flashed with (insert applicable emotion)." This tired cliché is excusable if it's a rarity. It should not be used several times a chapter. Likewise, lesser quality writing particularly shone through in a passage like:

posted:
He had taken Allana once, and Tenel Ka was not the type of woman to let that happen twice. She was the kind of woman who would keep her daughter close at all times, even in battle. That way, she could be sure that if Caedus tried to abduct their daughter again, he would have to go through Tenel Ka first.


This passage essentially says that Tenel Ka will not stand idle while Jacen is after Allana. The repetition of this idea is not needed, especially when the novel it belongs to is attempting to cover a lot of story and characterization in so little a page count. Which brings me to Invincible's primary weakness: its length, coupled with the fact that I can't really deny that the whole package feels like one extended action scene. Yes, some smaller moments of stellar non-combat character interaction stuck out in a good manner, such as Luke putting Fett in his place and Han desperately trying to decide between outlaw justice and civil resolution, but moments were all they were. I didn't feel a satisfactory wrap-up of the Confederacy plotline that kicked off the whole series in the first place (indeed, this is difficult when key player Niathal is entirely "off-screen"). Rather than a clear picture of where the galaxy is and should be headed, I'm left with the distinct impression that the status quo was maintained. Confederate secession? Bully 'em back into line with guns and ships! Suspicious Imperial taking over the government's supreme office? Hey, don't worry. Something goes wrong, and it'll be business as usual! Lost another child? Here, have this one!

Not that these happenings directly defy established continuity, but after I invest the time and energy in a nine-book series, I want to feel like I've read an epic with epic consequences, not an excuse to go through the motions all over again in a slightly different version of the same thing. Invincible needed more weight, more fully-realized individual character arcs, more necessary exposition that paints the setting as a changed character in itself rather than a facsimile-like backdrop.

From the beginning of the series I said that I might not be back if the end brings about a redeemed Jacen Solo. That hasn't happened, and as such I do have to extend props towards the creative team for having the guts to kill off another major character. My only hope is that this removal won't be akin to the vanquishing of a villain of the week.

That won't concern Invincible, of course. But perhaps the fact that I'm already looking ahead for increased depth and meaning is evidence that Invincible (as well as the overall story it ended) was too much surface posturing, and not enough of a single, substantial story of its own.

7/10


 

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DVader316 
Registered: Feb '00
41673_Darth Talon
Date Posted: 5/21 6:09pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
Well, like many here, I have decidedly mixed reactions about Invincible. I felt that it was pretty well written but I thought that it was rushed and way too short. I also thought that there was waaay too much focus on Jaina and not enough on Caedus. Luke's super speedy resolution to the war was way too tidy for my taste although I do like the seeds that were planted for Legacy down the road. Didnt like the lack of Niathal or the fact that the Confederation was a complete non-issue. Lastly, was really hoping that Caedus would live for at least another series, but at the same time I give DR and the authors alot of credit for having the balls to kill the last Solo son in the first place. With that said, Jacen was always one of my favorite characters and will certainly be missed. R.I.P.

Invincible : 6.5 / 10

Legacy of the Force: 8.5 / 10

 

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Havac 
Title: Lit Mod of Awayness
Registered: Sep '05
13743_Han Solo
Date Posted: 5/21 8:09pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
Average score: 434.34/58 = 7.49

 

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KnightDawg 
Registered: Nov '07
42050_Chiss
Date Posted: 5/22 7:06am Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers) - Date Edited: 5/22 7:49am (1 edits total) Edited By: Master_Keralys
Whew....finally finished it.

9.5/10

I loved the abrupt ending. I hate when a book answers everything.....we need cliffhangers for future stories. I like that Zekk is "missing". I think this will have a direct link to the Darth Krayt and his One Sith. Also, this book did a fantastic job of showing a future split in the NJO...I can easily see Ben Skywalker's vision of a Jedi and how it contrasts from Jaina. Makes sense for what we've seen so far in the "Legacy" comics. I also like Daala in her new position. I know it sounds crazy, but it basically tells the SW readers that there is something going on behind the scenes....especially after the long talk that Daala had with Boba about her dislike of Jedi. Having a Mandalore that cannot return to his home planet is freakin' awesome!!!

Let's not bash other people's opinions just because they're different.
This book was a masterpiece....especially considering some of the damage done in this series. Denning somehow put it all back together and like I said above...the abrupt ending was brillant...not a abrupt as the "Sapranos" ending, but it left plenty of needed cliffhangers and WTF's (i.e. Daala) to give us lots of future books before we jump into the Darth Krayt era!!

9.5/10


 

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KnightDawg 
Registered: Nov '07
42050_Chiss
Date Posted: 5/22 9:28am Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
Let's not bash other people's opinions just because they're different.


Sorry....it was a quick/shock response made 5 minutes after finishing the book. I'll head to the penalty box tongue .

 

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PadmeA_Panties 
Registered: Oct '03
7293_Djas Puhr<br>Action Figure
Date Posted: 5/22 10:24am Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: INVINCIBLE (Spoilers)
Like some on here, I don't know how to begin this review as well. There is just so much of this book I find myself loathing that it saddens me really.

The entire novel through, it felt so extremely rushed; not just this novel, but the war, the story, the whole LOTF story-arc, the way it transitioned from being a story of legacy - Luke's to Ben's, Solo's to Jania, Vader's to Jacen/Caedus's, Wedge's to his daughter's, etc. to that of a splintered government with Niathal vs. Jacen vs. Jedi vs. Confederation vs. Verpines/Mandalorians. Really, half-way through Invincible and I was having trouble figuring out the Moff/Daala/Palleon scheme. Did Palleon want these Moffs left in charge after his death - did he want Daala to have the Mandalorians only kill some/certain ones? etc.

The other thing, the entire book, I was rooting for Jacen. In every single scene: Luke annoyed the living crap out of me. Smarmyness, over-force, etc. In cardgames and other things, there is a level called: "power creep" where the next batch of something is more powerful than the last, and replaces the last, ad nauseum. I'm waiting for Star Wars books in the year 2020 (our year) detailing stories set in the SW universe year 500ABY where the Jedi are basically uber-uber-uber-uber-uber-Jedi/DBZ characters killing millions by blinking their eyeballs and changing their hair color.

This whole novel revolved around three things:
1) A skirmish on Nickel One -> Not much actual meaning in the context of the war
2) Jaina's dueling with Jacen -> Which while good, overrall took over 40 pages of a 300 page novel of just fighting descriptions.
3) Ben's release from GAG.

Pretty much the entire GAG storyline could have been deleted. Sure it was a subtle way of getting Ben some more light, removing Shevu, and showing Tahiri coming back to the Light Side; but it still ultimately severed the story and hindered it greatly.

Likewise, forcing much of the earlier focus on Fett/Mirta/Jaina/Mandalorians-Verpine interactions seemed so contradictory to the nature of how the war was represented all the way up until Exile where the writers seemingly forgot there was an actual war and just wanted to go with Darth Maniac's attempts to suicidally maniacally laugh whilst killing his family and hindering his own plight for nearly no sanely good reason.

Another thing; I forget the exact page count, but Revelation - a paperback was 400 some pages, and Invincible - a hardcover, was 300 pages (-1, +4 intro). Slightly weak when you figure in that you spend 8$ for Revelation, also get a 1 chapter excerpt of Invincible, and then that you pay 27$ for Invincible - which you've already read the first chapter of, which was 15-20 pages; I forget; so its basically like you paid 27$ for a 285 page book. Slightly depressing in an economic downturn and is mainly the reason I don't buy Del Rey's hardcovers except series specifics, and most likely in the future I won't even do that.

I did like Denning's way of throwing you off thinking Jacen was going to turn good again by having the cutesy little joke-quotes as his chapter intros. I was worried that he would be redeemed, steal Han's Falcon and shoot off into the unknown regions to repent... and that the MFalcon novel would be about Han/Leia finding him....... actually that sounds 100000000000 times better than the drivel that the Falcon novels sounds like.


The ending duel with Jaina/Jacen was good; but so un-Star Wars duelish and so much more Jason vs. Freddy type thing that it was a tad-bit ridiculous. I also wanted Jacen's body to dissipate ala Obi/Vader/etc. - but no dice; I also wanted Jacen to meet his end in the incinerator there during that whole duel (I actually really wanted Jaina to bite it; but alas).

I'm meandering and rambling now, and if prompted, I could give much more.

My review: 2.5 out of 10.


Also; just one last bit: how did that whole dropscene thing work? Jaina was able to activate a lightsaber in the vacuum of space, cut a TIE's wing off, and not loose her grip on it or anything? That whole 4-5 page span completely confused me with its 1) numerous physical errors and 2) non-Star Wars technology/actions. Any help on understanding that whole section would be great.

 

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