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Topic:
To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/14 8:14am
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
- Date Edited:
5/14 8:14am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Charlemagne19
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Master_Keralys posted:
Good discussion! I'm going out looking for a job; I'll be back later to chime in.
Charles, no, this is staying the Ulic thread; the Exar one is probably up next, though, for precisely the reason you brought up.  I want to deal with characters independently; you're more than welcome to reference Kun, of course, but I think he deserves his own thread, because his fall is particularly interesting.
- Keralys
It's interesting because how they parallel each other so well.
Also, because of the curious fact I'm honestly more sympathetic to Exar Kun than Ulic.
Despite being the "Good" guy of the two, I honestly tend to think Ulic is the worst of the two.
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/14 8:16am
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
- Date Edited:
5/14 8:20am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Ulicus
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Exar Kun doesn't fall. 
He turns. Though he was falling, prior, certainly. 
Yes, I am that pedantic. 
*Ulicus is of the mind that any conscious decision to go to the dark side is a turn. One only falls if they don't realise they have gone to the dark side. Atris is an example of a fall, where Revan is an example of a turn*
Charlemagne19 posted:
It's interesting because how they parallel each other so well.
Also, because of the curious fact I'm honestly more sympathetic to Exar Kun than Ulic.
Despite being the "Good" guy of the two, I honestly tend to think Ulic is the worst of the two.
I prefer Ulic, but then I'm biased.
I have brown hair, my brother has blond hair. Reading the comics as a kid, that was enough for me to associate myself with Ulic (see:username) and my brother as Cay. Of course, then Ulic killed Cay and I felt a bit queasy.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/14 8:19am
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
- Date Edited:
5/14 8:26am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Charlemagne19
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Ulicus posted:
*Ulicus is of the mind that any conscious decision to go to the dark side is a turn. One only falls if they don't realise they have gone to the dark side. Atris is an example of a fall, where Revan is an example of a turn*
I use it in the classical form "Falls from Grace."
I confess, I do like Ulic's death. The simple fact he's assassinated by someone whose a GIANT JOKE is appropriate for showing that Ulic is hated like the dictator/murderer that he is. He's achieved spiritual redemption in the Force but he'll never achieve redemption in the physical world.
It's a nice note about Darth Vader.
And shows ALL sorts of things about what's wrong with Kyp Durron's fall (of course, KJA never intended blowing up Carida to be the hot potato the EU retconned it as)
As for why I prefer Kun, as a teenager I was a social outcast who was all too brainy. Exar Kun struck me like Raistlin Majere, all the right "I could crush you all!" insticts.
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/14 8:26am
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
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Charlemagne19 posted:
I use it in the classical form "Falls from Grace."
Yeah, that's fair. And I do consider people like Revan and Vader to have fallen from grace.
I just wouldn't say that they'd... "fallen to the dark side". They turned to the dark side, and thus fell from grace. 
A part of this boils down to my not wanting to think Kreia is an idiot, however, and to justify her saying: "Revan never fell".
Charlemagne19 posted:
I confess, I do like Ulic's death. The simple fact he's assassinated by someone whose a GIANT JOKE is appropriate for showing that Ulic is hated like the dictator/murderer that he is. He's achieved spiritual redemption in the Force but he'll never achieve redemption in the physical world.
It's a nice note about Darth Vader.
I agree, it's very nicely done.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/14 8:36am
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
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I just took that as a sign of Darth Traya's total unwillingness to acknowledge reality.
The Force was bigger than her student's power to handle.
Ditto her.
But yes, Ulic's turn boils down to.
* Brash and arrogant to begin with.
* Hated the Krath for killing mentor.
* Murdered Keto.
* Got all hot and sweaty for Aleema.
* Was doing Sith drugs.
* Turned against the Jedi for saying he wasn't able to handle it.
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Jedimarine
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
5/14 8:37am
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
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I can appreciate the Idea of Ulic being considered worse based on the fall.
but Ulic and Kun are perfect examples of why the Fall is not the enbodiment of what it means to be of the darkside.
Yes...Kun is corrupted...he is tricked and coerced. While Ulic is much more walking the path to damnation himself.
But:
Once they are in the dark...how they press forward is just as important.
Kun may have been the pawn that got the darkside thrust upon him...but his actions after that really don't show you any strife to combat this cruel twist of fate.
It is interesting...how the one who was a victim becomes an even more vicious monster then the guy who had his head up going the whole way.
We are talking about the fall...but there is more to the darkside then how you fall...Ulic and Kun show us that.
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
5/14 4:43pm
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
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Problem is: Ulic and Kun show us that, but we're not shown enough Ulic and Kun.
The pacing of these comics is so rushed that there's not really any character exposition, especially before they fall. I think what we've talked here already amounts to more words than what these characters have uttered.
I'm currently rereading my SW comics - IU chronologically - and after soldiering through 2 TOTJ omnibuses, it really becomes clear how broad the strokes in there are if you start reading the KOTOR ones - where you suddenly get real, living characters. I wouldn't mind if JJM started concerning himself with the Ulic era after this enterprise.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/14 5:18pm
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
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SuperWatto posted:
Problem is: Ulic and Kun show us that, but we're not shown enough Ulic and Kun.
The pacing of these comics is so rushed that there's not really any character exposition, especially before they fall. I think what we've talked here already amounts to more words than what these characters have uttered.
I'm currently rereading my SW comics - IU chronologically - and after soldiering through 2 TOTJ omnibuses, it really becomes clear how broad the strokes in there are if you start reading the KOTOR ones - where you suddenly get real, living characters. I wouldn't mind if JJM started concerning himself with the Ulic era after this enterprise.
I find that a rather foolish notion to be honest, SuperWatto.
The stories are told in epic myth style.
6 issues for a major story arc is fine by me.
We don't need everything spelled out for us.
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Nobody145
Registered:
Feb '07
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Date Posted:
5/14 5:54pm
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
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Hm, I remember reading these comics years ago (and glancing at the omnibuses more recently) and they're very... stylized, I guess, very different from the contemporary series like Legacy and KotOR. At the same time, the TotJ series were just limited, six-issue series.
Ulic's fall doesn't really inspire much pity, but he probably makes a better Anakin-type fall than Anakin does, with how at first he's pretty likable, but the death of Master Arca drives him to vengeance. The Jedi of that time seemed like a pretty loose organization, with Masters scattered about, each training a few students, and Knights just going about doing good deeds. Of course, that was before they imposed most of the prequel-era stuff on this century, and back then, Jedi were just like roaming knights, helping out, stopping galactic threats, etc.
Ulic's attempted infiltration of the darkside was somewhat weak, but I just chalk it up to darkside twisting his mind, Sith drugs, and the style of the comic. Though when ancient Dark Lords of the Sith show up and essentially dub them Dark Lords, then Ulic goes off the deep end, and doesn't really seem to have any light left, but Cay's faith in Ulic never faltered, even when he was struck down by Ulic himself. After that, Ulic finally snapped out of it, though Nomi had already stripped him of his Force powers.
Ulic's redemption is perhaps one of the best pieces of EU Literature around though, and though its not quite relating directly to Ulic's fall, I think its a good example of what walking on the darkside does to someone. It took Cay's death, but Ulic is no longer evil. The name of Ulic's ship, Cay's Dream, is very appropiate, as Cay finally brought his brother back from the darkside. But one can lock up a darksider, but people can't really punish them more than they feel they deserve to be punished. With LotF (I'll avoid Invincible spoilers),Jacen felt everything he was doing was the right thing, and draged Tahiri down with him, but even if Luke and company managed to capture him, then he would still be saying he's doing the right thing and everyone else is wrong. Ulic, on the other hand, pretty much loathes himself. He doesn't kill himself, as he's still not quite that weak, but he's still a broken man, 10 years after the Sith War. When he falls into an icy chasm, he's ready to just die, but Arca tells him to live, and it might just be an hallucination or an actual Force vision, but Ulic knows that he owes his life to Arca, so he digs himself out.
Vima's innocence is a nice contrast to Ulic's weariness, and Nomi and Sylvar worry that Ulic will corrupt Vima or something, but honestly, in terms of knowing about the potenial costs of being a Jedi, Ulic's one of the most knowledgeable ones there is. A Jedi is usually heroic and adventurous, but there are so many dangers, and it is easy, very easy to just step out of the light, even for just a little bit and then to keep walking away from the light. Ulic doesn't deny his guilt, he knows his crimes are his own fault, and locking him up wouldn't really do anything, as he's no threat, and he's already punishing himself far more than anyone else could. Ulic's journey makes me think of what Anakin's life could've been, post-Vader, if he hadn't already been so physically wounded and near-dead. Trying to live in a galaxy that hates you, and knowng you're not worth it, but killing yourself wouldn't help anyone either.
Ulic's fall was pretty quick, but then again, Jedi corruption can be very quick and very easy, so maybe that's part of the message about how dangerous the darkside is. Ulic was a Jedi, a Sith, then he was nothing, but he learned from it all, and passed on at least some of that knowledge (not Sith techniques, but just the potential costs) to Vima, helping to temper her youthful fire with his experience. He had no Force powers by the end of his life, but he still had his experience and knowledge, so at the end, after being shot by a random spacer, but he was still able to break Sylvar free of her anger as well, he died in the light. Redemption's still a tricky thing (Angel, the Buffy spin-off series, loves to go on about redemption), but there are always chances, if the person is willing. Of course, that willingness to change and acknowledge their mistakes is always the trickiest part.
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
5/14 7:01pm
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
- Date Edited:
5/14 9:06pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Havac
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Charlemagne19 posted:
SuperWatto posted:
Problem is: Ulic and Kun show us that, but we're not shown enough Ulic and Kun.
The pacing of these comics is so rushed that there's not really any character exposition, especially before they fall. I think what we've talked here already amounts to more words than what these characters have uttered.
I'm currently rereading my SW comics - IU chronologically - and after soldiering through 2 TOTJ omnibuses, it really becomes clear how broad the strokes in there are if you start reading the KOTOR ones - where you suddenly get real, living characters. I wouldn't mind if JJM started concerning himself with the Ulic era after this enterprise.
I find that a rather foolish notion to be honest, SuperWatto.
The stories are told in epic myth style.
6 issues for a major story arc is fine by me.
We don't need everything spelled out for us.
Epic myth style . . . that must be why Beowulf is well over a hundred pages, three hundred pages in some editions.
That must be why the Lord of the Rings is a 1400-page trilogy.
6 issues might be enough for a major story arc . . . in the hands of John Ostrander, who excels at packing material into the page. That does not appear to be one of Mr. Veitch's or Mr. Anderson's virtues. Perhaps if they used some of their text bubbles to get into their characters' heads instead of telling the reader what he is already seeing on the page, but . . . they didn't. It's definitely a very superficial telling of the story, and while it might still get enough impact through to be suitable for you, I don't see it being "foolish" to think it would have benefited a lot from receiving a more in-depth examination.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/14 7:08pm
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
- Date Edited:
5/14 7:11pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Charlemagne19
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Epic myth style . . . that must be why Beowulf is well over a hundred pages, three hundred pages in some editions.
Yes, absolutely, Beowulf is a perfect example.
Calculates:
It's probably a little shorter than Tales of the Jedi's sage.
32 pages each comic book.
6 comics for each story arc
4 Major Comic arcs (Tales of the Jedi, Dark Lord of the Sith, The Sith Wars, Redemption) +2 issues in the Freedom Nadd Uprising.
Something like EIGHT HUNDRED PAGES.
Oh wait, sorry, it's MUCH MUCH LONGER than Beowulf.
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
5/14 8:30pm
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
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I'm going to choose to believe that you're joking, because if you honestly think that comic-book pages carry the same amount of information as pages in a novel . . . I have a seaside resort to sell you in Nebraska.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/14 8:32pm
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
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*cough*
Epic poem.
::continues studying::
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/14 8:48pm
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
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Havac posted:
I'm going to choose to believe that you're joking, because if you honestly think that comic-book pages carry the same amount of information as pages in a novel . . . I have a seaside resort to sell you in Nebraska.
I'd argue they carry *MORE* per page.
Seriously, Havac, are you serious or are you just not actually aware of what comics do? Cause frankly this shows a profound misunderstanding of the medium. Comic books have way way way way more information than a page. Because in addition to dialogue, they have what the eyes can SEE instead of description.
If you can't understand that then I'm shocked.
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
5/14 9:06pm
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
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I am well aware of the fact that comic books have pictures, Charles. But action that takes a paragraph in a five-hundred page book takes up a whole page even in a five-hundred-page comic. Some scene description gets dropped, yes, but all the action gets stretched out, and it gets damn hard to convey long conversations or serious introspection or exposition. You know why the Thrawn Trilogy comic adaptations were shorter than the novels? Not because all the information in the novels magically changed itself into Comic Information that took up fewer pages. Because they cut stuff out. Not just events, but most of the thinking and depth in it. And that was with half the page being speech bubbles. They're different formats that have different strengths in what they portray. The comics format, as practiced by Veitch and Anderson, was nowhere near the match for a novel of the same amount of pages in conveying what's actually going on with Ulic.
And, checking, it's 24 pages per issue, not 32. So twenty-four pages, four six-issue arcs, would be 576 pages. And all that makes me think is, "God, that many pages, and they still managed to tell almost no story." It makes it even more pathetically superficial.
So, almost six hundred pages. That's about forty percent of the Lord of the Rings. Are you honestly going to tell me that Tales of the Jedi's Ulic arc contains as much story, as much information and time inside the characters' heads, as forty percent of the Lord of Rings? I certainly don't think so.
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