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Topic:
To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
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beccatoria
Title: 181st Imperial Discussion Group host
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
5/13 2:58pm
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
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I don't have a great deal to contribute yet, but I have to say, the physical aspect of Ulic's fall - his unhealing wound as a literal point of entry, is very early-mythological, as is the vision that forges Exar Kun and Ulic into a pact rather than a death match. The notion of the Dark Side as an entity with a will and a corrupting taint, is perhaps here at its more powerful.
To draw a contrast, I remembered thinking in AotC that Anakin's mechanical arm was his first step towards becoming "more machine now, than man." One of my favourite EU moments is during the final few chapters of the Clone Wars cartoon, when Anakin is on his vision quest and sees the cave paintings of a man with a mechanical arm who first uses it to destroy his enemies then loses control of it and finds it destroying his tribe as well.
I appreciate the mentally tortured story of Anakin's fall. I'm not necessarily advocating that an external corrupting agent would have been better, but I did always wish that his arm had been used as a larger...symbol?
Like Ulic Qel-Droma a physical reminder of weakness and failure and evil and danger and need for greater power to make sure next time, next time it won't happen the same way. The evil consumed Ulic's entire being; the metal, Vader's.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 4:05pm
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
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Manisphere posted:
If Ulic was on a precipice, I'm assuming the poison simply made his decision making easier and faster. Easier and faster because he has no emotional reason to want to go dark. He basically had no hate to feed his hate so the poison manufactured anger. This is what I'm guessing Veitch and Anderson meant and wanted. (I don't know why I'm so hung up on the Sith poison thing? tongue )
I disagree. By the time that Ulic Qel Dromel is injected with Sith poison. He's already murdered an innocent man (The Tetan Miner), he's already slain Warb Null in Anger (Freedon Nadd uprising), and has been brutalized for hours by torture droids in Satal Keto's dungeon. Certainly, he already hated the Krath for murdering Master Arca.
FYI- Is it wrong to find Master Arca's death one of the most unintentionally hilarious things in the EU? Arca manages to smash down a huge number of droids but is able to be stabbed from behind because he stopped in the middle of a fight to LECTURE Ulic Qel Dromel. It's pretty obvious that Ulic felt that he distracted Arca at a critical time but that has got to be the dumbest way to die for any Jedi Master in the history of the EU.
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Manisphere
Registered:
Aug '07
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Date Posted:
5/13 4:27pm
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
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Charlemagne19 posted:
...Certainly, he already hated the Krath for murdering Master Arca.
FYI- Is it wrong to find Master Arca's death one of the most unintentionally hilarious things in the EU? Arca manages to smash down a huge number of droids but is able to be stabbed from behind because he stopped in the middle of a fight to LECTURE Ulic Qel Dromel. It's pretty obvious that Ulic felt that he distracted Arca at a critical time but that has got to be the dumbest way to die for any Jedi Master in the history of the EU.
I'll certainly give you Ulic's righteous anger at Master Arca's death being a good impetus for his plan to "fall". He was kidding himself-whatever and I forgot about the miner. You got me there too.
But in keeping with your second comment, Charles, I didn't take Arca's death seriously cause I can afford little sadness to a very renowned Jedi Master who gets himself killed by not paying attention to the bloody obvious. I mean it was a padawan move. If he hadn't been a Jedi he might have lived. Most Jedi can tell if a sniper is on them from a few miles away. Arca gets it in the back from a robot he knew might be right there. Not a great way to go out.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/13 5:14pm
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
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Jedi have trouble with droids.
Also, I'm still unconvinced there's a difference between "enhacing emotions" and corrupting.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 5:20pm
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
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BobaMatt posted:
Jedi have trouble with droids.
Also, I'm still unconvinced there's a difference between "enhacing emotions" and corrupting.
Well if Ulic Qel Dromel is just happy go lucky and springtime in December, it's not really conducive to becoming a Galactic Despot anymore than getting Anakin hooked on a certain weed of Earth is likely to make him a galaxy conquering despot rather than just a bored stoner.
However, something that makes you angry and agitated like certain RL drugs and gives you a feeling of power (like cocaine in strong doses) is certainly more likely to do it.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/13 5:25pm
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
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To...corrupt you? Yes. That's my point.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 5:29pm
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
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BobaMatt posted:
To...corrupt you? Yes. That's my point.
I was just making a point that it's probably just a negative emotions enhancer rather than a general emotional stimulant (i.e. What you feel is enhanced).
But yes, I don't think it's possible for the Sith to make an Evil PotionTM.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/13 5:32pm
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
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Right, but no one ever doesn't feel negative emotions, so it's essentially an Ev¡l PotionTM in effect.
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/13 5:40pm
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
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Charlemagne19 posted:
I disagree. By the time that Ulic Qel Dromel is injected with Sith poison. He's already murdered an innocent man (The Tetan Miner), he's already slain Warb Null in Anger (Freedon Nadd uprising), and has been brutalized for hours by torture droids in Satal Keto's dungeon. Certainly, he already hated the Krath for murdering Master Arca.
I'm sure there was something up with that piece of shrapnel he was hit with too, to be fair. "The Wound That Never Heals", infused with dark Sith Magic, yada yada.
So he's probably not thinking absolutely straight from that point on, even before he has the poison introduced to his system.
He's tainted, to some extent, from the end of DLotS#2.
BobaMatt posted:
Right, but no one ever doesn't feel negative emotions, so it's essentially an Evil PotionTM in effect.
Agreed.
After all, if you amplify a Force users negative emotions you're bound to forge them into a creature of evil....
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 5:44pm
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
- Date Edited:
5/13 5:48pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Charlemagne19
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I think that the cure for a Jedi being tainted is to gather them all around in a Big Pow Wow circle, pass the Force Pipe around a bit, and do a "Sweat Lodge thing" gathering the lightside of the force around and purifying the wound and poison. Certainly, Ulic should have retired himself to someplace remote and soaked with the Light Side to get rid of the wound and the Sith Poison. However, that's not Ulic's style.
Interestingly, EVERY Jedi seems to know how stupid Ulic's plan is but no one is able to overrule him and say "No!"
Maybe this is why the Jedi Council is created.
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/13 5:57pm
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
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Charlemagne19 posted:
Interestingly, EVERY Jedi seems to know how stupid Ulic's plan is but no one is able to overrule him and say "No!"
Maybe this is why the Jedi Council is created.
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I just said the exact same thing in the chat, but - as Becca pointed out - what good did a Jedi Council saying "no" do for Revan? Would Ulic have listened? Could the Jedi have enforced their will?
There's actually a nice contrast here:
The Jedi on Ulic: He must do what he feels is right.
The Jedi on Revan: He must NOT do what he feels is right.
Both ended up screwed.
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Kaje
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/13 6:01pm
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
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Charlemagne19 posted:
Interestingly, EVERY Jedi seems to know how stupid Ulic's plan is but no one is able to overrule him and say "No!"
Back then there was a feeling among the Masters that Jedi should be free to do their own thing, even if that led them to ruin. It was only when they were already immersed in the dark side and were causing harm to innocents that the Jedi would finally intercede.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 6:05pm
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
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Ulicus posted:
I just said the exact same thing in the chat, but - as Becca pointed out - what good did a Jedi Council saying "no" do for Revan? Would Ulic have listened? Could the Jedi have enforced their will?
Actually, I think Ulic Pre-Master Arca's fall would have grudingly aquiesced to the Jedi Council's ruling (had such existed at the time). He would have been angry, upset, and annoyed but it wouldn't have resulted in him sneaking off to do it I think. I believe he was not quite so far gone as to not obey a direct order. Plus, before he met Aleema, he was also falling in love with Nomi Sunrider.
I imagine Ulic would have insisted on attempting to lead the next assault on the Empress Teta worlds but it makes more sense to me that he COULD have been stopped story-wise rather than that he was unable to escape his destiny (and destiny/escaping it is a major theme of the Prequels).
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
5/13 7:48pm
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
- Date Edited:
5/13 7:48pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Havac
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I have to say, just having read the TOTJ Omnis, I wasn't impressed with Ulic's fall at all.
Ulic: I am mad. I shall infiltrate the Krath and bring them to justice.
Other Jedi: Bad idea, but whatever.
Ulic: Here I am with the Krath. Hello, Krath! I wish to join your cult.
Satal: I don't trust you.
Aleema: Ooooh, he's so dreamy!
Ulic: So am I in or what?
Satal: You're obviously here to undermine us, but whatever. Here's some poison.
Ulic: Hmm. I'm irritable.
Aleema: You're so dreamy!
Ulic: OK, Satal, I've had enough. You're dead!
Jedi Friends: Come back with us!
Ulic: Uhh, no, I have to stay and infiltrate the Krath.
Jedi Friends: Well, just kill Aleema and be done with it.
Ulic: Uhh, that doesn't make sense. If I kill them, their knowledge will spread. It's only if I learn everything they know and leave them alive that their knowledge will die with them.
Jedi Friends: We unite in overlooking this massively KJAian logical inconsistency.
Ulic: Ooooh, I'm going to destroy the Republic now. That will be fun.
Cay: Dude, you're evil now.
Ulic: Shut up.
Cay: Dammit, you killed me!
Ulic: Dammit, I killed you! I've been so wrong.
Nomi: Damn right! I'm going to go berserk and strip you of your powers!
And that's pretty much it. It's just . . . I didn't feel any resonance in it. It felt like a hasty farce. Ulic was himself a likable enough character up to his fall -- a brash, bold Jedi hero with a lot of redeeming characteristics but some flaws built in. It's a great starting ground for a fall. I can't complain there. The problem comes when he gets this tremendously illogical plan in his head, and no one tries very hard to talk him out of it, and the story starts being driven by plot needs rather than sensible characterization. Bits of it were good portrayals of a well-meaning man succumbing to the temptation of "No, I've just got to stay a little bit longer," but it just felt sabotaged by the shoddy treatment that the material itself gives the fall. I feel like it was a good concept with lousy execution.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 9:13pm
Subject:
RE: To Fall So Far, pt. II: Ulic Qel-Droma
- Date Edited:
5/13 10:31pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Charlemagne19
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Havac posted:
And that's pretty much it. It's just . . . I didn't feel any resonance in it. It felt like a hasty farce. Ulic was himself a likable enough character up to his fall -- a brash, bold Jedi hero with a lot of redeeming characteristics but some flaws built in. It's a great starting ground for a fall. I can't complain there. The problem comes when he gets this tremendously illogical plan in his head, and no one tries very hard to talk him out of it, and the story starts being driven by plot needs rather than sensible characterization. Bits of it were good portrayals of a well-meaning man succumbing to the temptation of "No, I've just got to stay a little bit longer," but it just felt sabotaged by the shoddy treatment that the material itself gives the fall. I feel like it was a good concept with lousy execution.
It's something of a strange bird because it strikes me as a mixture of Comic Book corruption and very nasty subtext.
A:] Comic Book Corruption has all of Ulic Qel Dromel's fall be attributed to the fact he was under the influence of Dark Side Ju-Ju and drugs that turned an otherwise normal guy into a ravening psychopath and conqueror.
It's like Doctor Jekyll and Mister Hyde with the Dark Side.
B:] Nasty Subtext has that Ulic Qel Dromel was always a bitter and vengeful character that wanted respect/authority. Thus, when Aleema gave him the offer of letting him use her as a sex toy and also the power/prestige of being the Krath's Warlord then he pretty much jumped at the chance since he essentially realized he didn't care about being a Jedi anymore (he got a better offer and traded up).
The problem with B isn't the storyline itself. The idea of double agents/undercover cops becoming seduced by the lifestyle and authority of the criminal underworld has worked in as diverse stories as Mother Night, Miami Vice, and The Fast and the Furious. The problem is that B essentially makes Ulic a fairly loathsome character.
Really, B actually makes Exar Kun seem like a fairly nicer character. At least Exar Kun went fully into the Dark Side, knowing what it would cost him, but without any illusions that he was still a servant of the Light.
Ulic comes off as a horrible hypocrite for being seduced by the same things yet being much more angry at the Jedi for "betraying" him. Brutal as Exar Kun was, he maintained a sort of Gentleman's Honor Respect for the Jedi Knights even as he killed them off. Ulic just seemed to spit on them.
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