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Author	Topic: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
DarthNidLoc Registered: Mar '05	Date Posted: 5/16 11:20am Subject: RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
	With Lukes potential this isn't really unbelievable. Both Anakin and Luke begins to see the future for the first time in the late teens/Early twenties. At first they only see snippets of whats happening. Anakin gets toasted before he can develop the power further, Luke gets to develop this ability. Yoda and Sidious where able to see the future well and Luke is more powerful then either of them. -----signature----- "The Mystery of Life is not a problem to be solved"-Muad'Dib Death is such a small impediment-Darth Revan I have been a stranger in a strange land- Moses from Shemot (Exodus) Chapter 2 verse 22
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leia7 Registered: Apr '07	Date Posted: 5/16 2:57pm Subject: RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers) - Date Edited: 5/16 3:13pm (1 edits total) Edited By: leia7
	When did Anakin Solo see the future? Edit Sorry, I should have been more specific. In what circumstances and what book?
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 5/16 3:08pm Subject: RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
	DarthNidLoc posted: Both Anakin and Luke begins to see the future for the first time in the late teens/Early twenties. Actually, in Anakin's case it may have been earlier, if his early dreams can be at least partly considered Force premonitions. -----signature----- The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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dizfactor Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 5/16 4:27pm Subject: RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
	This sort of thing (and let's throw flow-walking in there, too) opens up some interesting possibilities. I am increasingly fascinated with battle meditation, and there seems like a very interesting and fertile ground to explore where these two overlap. I am reminded of the First Battle of Ruusan in DB: PoD, where Kaan is deep in battle meditation, shaping the outcome of the battle, when he senses another presence, a Jedi Master in the Republic fleet doing the same. There are a lot of possibilities there - someone like Luke seeing and shaping the future, and finding another consciousness out there doing the same - having a battle for the future like a chess game, moving pieces, changing outcomes, having them changed back... You know, there's always the tension between wanting Luke to be more actively engaged and worrying that he'll overshadow everyone else. This is an area where Luke can realistically have a very interesting challenge that only he can face, while also leaving the field ops to others. -----signature----- "Play is going to be for the 21st century what steam was to the 19th century." Julian Dibbell "You gotta love an elite killing force that you can fool by putting on a hat." Gryph
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beccatoria Title: 181st Imperial Discussion Group host Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 5/16 6:53pm Subject: RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
	You know, before I saw this thread, I was thinking about Luke's behaviour in Invincible and how some have spoken about it as manipulative or dark, and how it...creeped me right out. I never really bought Luke going dark in Dark Empire, it always felt more like desperation and him trying to be "undercover" but in this book, for the first time, I felt that his turning to the dark side was a possibility. However, I also think that Luke Skywalker going to the dark side would be...nonsensical in the context of the wider EU, I wouldn't trust pretty much anyone to handle it right, and much more than that, applying "evil" or "Sith" as a term to his behaviour in the novel really, really didn't sit right. And then I figured it out: it's like Paul or Leto II in the DUNE series. I can't say that Paul or even Leto II were evil. Certainly they didn't fit the criteria we usually apply to Sith, not even the more sane and successful Sith Lords such as Palpatine. But they were terrifying, they were at times brutal, and they made decisions both ethical and practical that shouldn't sit well with any Jedi. And...that was what Luke reminded me of in this novel. And I think I found it so unnerving because it's not the sort of hero/villain that we usually get in Star Wars, and because I'm not sure it's what I was supposed to be getting from the book. And if it is, I don't think other authors will run with it, but I'm digressing. What I was going to say was, thanks for giving me another parallel there. I'd totally not noticed the "picking and choosing a future" thing. It raises two points for me. Firstly, I'm not sure it's that different to what we've seen him do before. I'm also not sure that we can claim he was seeing a possible future and then simply choosing to make it so. It seemed more a case he'd had visions that suggested if he confronted Jacen something bad would happen, so he didn't. That's...not really that different to most Jedi and their visions and their attempts with varying degrees of success, to prevent/ensure them. As to what Luke is doing to Jacen, he's less picking a future and more screwing Jacen's ability to predict it. He's reaching into Jacen's visions and altering them so they include him instead of Jaina or anyone else. This isn't choosing another future, it's just messing with the reception. In fact he's actively trying not to influence the future but just to let it unfold as Jacen sees it, even when it means bad things for his own family like Ben's capture, because he doesn't want to tip off Jacen to the fact that he's subtly adjusting things. Luke isn't picking futures, he's just preventing Jacen from seeing them accurately. However, if we do run with the idea of Luke picking futures - and I certainly like it (see comments above), even if I'm not sure it's supported by the text, then we have a very interesting point: Luke was furious with Jacen for fixing the future in the DNT through flowwalking. Is he now doing the same thing? -----signature----- legatus imperatoris britanniæ superior REMEMBER: DARTH MAUL: SHADOW HUNTER DISCUSSION STARTS IN NOVEMBER! Han's a girl, so I got a Golden Ewok.
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Suzuki_Akira Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 5/16 8:55pm Subject: RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
	beccatoria posted: Firstly, I'm not sure it's that different to what we've seen him do before. I'm also not sure that we can claim he was seeing a possible future and then simply choosing to make it so. It seemed more a case he'd had visions that suggested if he confronted Jacen something bad would happen, so he didn't. That's...not really that different to most Jedi and their visions and their attempts with varying degrees of success, to prevent/ensure them. You have a point there. I think what differentiates this from other visions we've seen in my mind are three things. One, he's seen multiple visions that end this way: "Every future that begins with me going after Caedus ends in darkness...no matter how I envision it, it always leads to darkness," (Invincible hardcover, pg. 35). The words 'every' and 'always' imply both a good number of visions he's had and an understanding that these visions are holistic - otherwise he wouldn't be making this point and could just assume that there's a possible future with him taking down Caedus that he just hasn't been able to see. Also, the darkness he's speaking of seems to be for the galaxy, from Jaina's reaction, and not just him. Secondly, he's seen multiple visions based on a decision Jaina had made without his non-visionary knowledge: "Jaina turned to Luke. 'You knew I was going to ask for the Council's sanction, didn't you?' 'I've seen some things that have led me to expect it, yes.' A note of distress in Luke's voice suggested that not all those futures turned out well."(Invincible hc, pg. 39). The underline emphasis is mine. A possible reading of this section is also that the word "those" is important, as it could be read to imply that he's also seen visions where she didn't make this decision. Thirdly, the amount of detail in his visions. He knew what Jaina had come to say in the above situation, he knew Ben would be captured, and had reduced it to a certainty: "'Did you just say that you [i]expected Ben to be captured? 'Not expected...Knew. I saw it in the future." (pg. 74) And then Jaina's reaction, which is what influences the scale of the visions for me: "In fact, she was beginning to feel like a holopiece in a dejarik match...one that would determine not only their destiny, but that of trillions." (pg. 77) And then Luke's last battle order, after him seeing another vision - to have the Owools stand down because the Mandalorians would already be at Nickel One (pg. 80). These visions see from the scale of fleet movements to the Nightsister bloodstain markings (pg. 170) which Luke could not have possibly understood without the vision of Caedus tracking Jaina down with them. beccatoria posted: However, if we do run with the idea of Luke picking futures - and I certainly like it (see comments above), even if I'm not sure it's supported by the text, then we have a very interesting point: Luke was furious with Jacen for fixing the future in the DNT through flowwalking. I don't think Luke is fixing a certain future, as in the flowwalking sense of leaving an imprint to jam the galaxy in that future, so much as he is steering the galaxy away from destructive ones. But that's a particularly interesting point to bring up, maybe someone has better thoughts on it than I. -----signature----- God is great, the Lord of all. "I find your lack of faith disturbing..." Those who dare oppose us will stand knee deep in the blood of their children. http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=158008483
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leia7 Registered: Apr '07	Date Posted: 5/16 9:01pm Subject: RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
	Honestly, I'm skeptical that anyone can "fix" a future with a good motive. Ok, that doesn't sound right so I'll try to explain. Star Wars is littered with future visions that are used, not used, and interpreted according to plot devices. This is most clearly demonstrated as all the visions of Anakin Solo, and the three Solo siblings leading a new Jedi Order won't happen unless some massive retconning or convoluted explanation is proposed. So, my attitude towards the Star Wars vision and conceptions of a future is "prove to me it is becoming real, not a vision and then I'll believe you". The simplistic version of Jacen's fall is that he fell because he had a vision of the future in which he kills Luke. Well, hello! Wouldn't Luke prefer to die rather than have you fall to the Dark side??? Is the future always changing from moment to moment? Jacen was influenced by a possible vision of the future, and perpetuates a tragedy as great if not greater than the one he was hoping to avoid. I would argue that this was because he was not "mindful of the moment" and too focused on what might happen. He tried to "fix" a future with disastrous consequences. The simplistic version of the fall of Anakin Skywalker is the same. According to this, Anakin Skywalker "fell" because he had a vision of Padme dying. And ironically, he caused her death because he was trying to prevent it instead of saying "just because that happened with my mother doesn't mean that it's going to happen to Padme, I'm going to go back to sleep." Jedi Master Luke Skywalker is not fixated on one event that he is trying to prevent or cause. He's screwing with Caedus's head. Although Luke has the general goal of bringing down Caedus, he is not consumed or obsessed by it. After he decides that he can't go after Jacen because of Lumiya, he does not have a vision of Jaina as the Sword of the Jedi defeating Caedus in a particular way and making that one vision happen. Rather he seems to be picking and choosing between alternatives and allowing people to make their own choices (and manipulating Mandalorians when they make the wrong one) To me that's different from the other two, although I'm not totally comfortable with Luke's actions either. Beccatoria mentioned flow walking and fixing the future. That reminded me of two points. 1) Jacen apparently "drew" Leia to a spot in the DNT through flow walking. This implies that the future can be fixed. 2) Caedus explains to Tahiri that flow walking would not save Anakin. This implies that flow walking cannot change events, although this refers to an event in the past, not the present. But .. There's also an explanation of the fact that he was on Coruscant and not on the Flyer when he flow walked there and pulled Raynar out of the shipwreck. If I read it correctly, that means he did change a past event. So, can flow walking really change either the future or the past or one but not the other?
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Suzuki_Akira Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 5/16 9:06pm Subject: RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
	The implication is that Raynar pulled himself out of the wreck, but the flow walk served as a sort of mind rub to convince Raynar that Jacen had helped. The event - Raynar emerges alive from wreck - is unchanged, but the memory of the cause of the event is altered. The best explanation is probably just that he wasn't injured enough to be completely incapacitated. -----signature----- God is great, the Lord of all. "I find your lack of faith disturbing..." Those who dare oppose us will stand knee deep in the blood of their children. http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=158008483
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Nobody145 Registered: Feb '07	Date Posted: 5/17 12:37am Subject: RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
	However, Raynar, or rather, UnuThul is far from a reliable, impartial or even mentally stable witness. I don't mean to insult Raynar, as I originally liked the character a little, but what I mean is that as Leia put it, Raynar was mentally traumatized by his experiences of being kidnapped by a Nightsister, then crashing in the middle of nowhere with no way home and he still bothers to save his captors, and on top of all that are the Killiks' very... fluid memory. There's not really much malice or intended duplicity on Raynar's or the Killik's parts, they just like to only remember the good parts consciously, and they get Joiner memories confused too, so their memories really are very messed up. At that point, if you goaded Raynar enough, they probably could've convinced him all humans were originally purple or something crazy like that. So I can see Raynar's memories being changed, and him not noticing it, while more stable people would probably notice the shift in their memories, which is probably why Caedus didn't muck around with the past too much to avoid anyone reporting to Luke flow-walking-esque changes. Changing the future is probably very hard too, as while Jacen was able to arrange for Leia to be somewhere at a specific time, if he could do that kind of thing more often, he could "arrange" for Luke to be impaled on his lightsaber by next week. Maybe Jacen could just glance into the future, saw Leia would be nearby soon anyway, so then he left a message for her at a specific place, and Leia would sense it, so she would head there and be there at the right time and place. Of course, by now, it seems like when Luke puts his mind to it, he can be very effective at jamming Force visions, so even if Caedus tried it, Luke would just laugh it off. I'm not entirely sure about Luke's behavior. Its very... cold-blooded and ruthless, not to mention the Jedi Council essentially condoning the assassination of Caedus, but unlike in certain other books, at least the Mandalorians aren't automatically gloating at the Jedi over that behavior. Though they were arguably also acting on the Hapans' and whatever other powers they'd pulled into the Jedi coalition behalf, and they were getting rid of a dangerous threat. Its just sad it came down to this. In terms of the future- I don't think Luke was ever fixing the future, he was just jamming pretty much most of Caedus' visions, to disrupt Caedus' flow-walking, Aing-tii fightsight, prophetic ability, battle meditation (though not much of that in the final book book either, given how little actual war scenes there were), or anything involving prophecy usually. I think Luke was inserting himself in various visions, sorta like Jedi mind tricks or telepathy or mind control on a very long-range scale, though probably requiring a lot of power, to get Caedus worried, obsessed and paranoid about facing Luke, and only Luke himself, and it was working spectacularly as a distraction, not to mention Luke boosting Jaina's power during his first duel with Caedus, and overlaying his image so that Caedus was almost completely ignoring Jaina a lot of the time. But I don't think Luke was fixing futures. I think he was intentionally inserting images in Caedus' visions and then acting out those visions, like Caedus had a vision of Luke in a Mando fighter swooping down on Caedus, so then Luke simply got his hands on a Mando fighter and attacked, which doesn't seem anywhere near as bad as Jacen somehow reaching through the Force, fixing Leia's position to be somewhere at a certain time, leaving a message for her, then leaving for another place. Though at the same time, because Luke was busy jamming Caedus, he couldn't try to get any accurate visions on the outcome of the war overall either, but it sounded like he had already spent a lot of time trying to map out all the possibilities, which is... kind of scary too. Jedi have always used visions, meditations, feelings, instincts, etc., to try and choose a course, but with Jacen on Vectivus' asteroid and Luke in this book, its like they just glance at the future and start looking at every possible and probable future up to a certain point, and then deciding which one looks the best, picking out one easily. Jacen originally accepted Lumiya's proposal to avoid a future where he saw himself killing Luke, but... no mention of that since, its all been "bring peace to the galaxy". Like the quote above mentioned, its kinda scary how Jaina feels that she's just a game piece between Luke and Caedus, and she really is just a pawn. Although Caedus doesn't even realize he's playing a Force vision chess or dejarik match with Luke, which immediately gives Luke a huge advantage, but as Luke can't personally kill Caedus, Luke can still only provide so much support to someone else in killing Caedus, who is still pretty formidable. Luke can't kill Caedus himself personally, as he's afraid that kind of act would drive Luke mad, and an insane, evil darkside Luke would probably be far worse than a insane, evil darkside Jacen. Too bad though that we don't ever get any real hint that Luke's recovered from Mara's death or his own brush with the darkside as the novel ends very quickly. In the earlier chapters, Luke doesn't look good physically to say the least. It seems insanely powerful, and Luke does look cool, but of course too much power, and aboslute power leads to corruption and all that. But at least its nice to see that Luke's skill and experience is more than a match for all of Caedus' fancy Aing-Tii, Fallanasi or any other Force tricks he's learned. So what if Caedus found out the location of the Jedi base? Luke knew it would happen somehow a while ago and has already planned out a strategy for it. Still somewhat scary though. I think I would've just preferred Luke taking a lightsaber and hacking off Caedus' head, and then taking a vacation to go on a training mission with Ben to sort out his mental problems. But that's too simple for novel writers these days. -----signature----- Don't mind me, I'm nobody important.
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NewStaryknight Registered: Dec '07	Date Posted: 5/17 12:23pm Subject: RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers) - Date Edited: 5/17 12:26pm (3 edits total) Edited By: NewStaryknight
	I thought the whole point of why people are discussing this is because they think Luke is going to go dark again. I admit the whole mine.....mine thing was a bit creepy but other than that I saw no reason to believe he was falling himself. For the last two books Luke has been depressed yes, but also very firmly put in his convictions about what his responsibilities are and how proud he is of Ben for what kind of man he's shaping up to be. He's literally moved to tears by it in Revelation and I think theirs a spot in Invincible where Ben is talking about the concepts of redemption and how Luke began studying him with "pride". So I don't think any of this means he's going dark, I think it means he's just become more focused and more decisive when dealing with Sith threats. He even tells Jaina that she should never let love or hate rule her. In other words he's becoming a little more like the Jedi of old and you can take that as a negative or a positive. Leia's becoming like that to only less so than Luke.
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 5/18 2:38am Subject: RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
	The relevant section from the notes of DE #1: "He could feel disturbances of every kind in the Force. With the eyes of a Jedi he could see events taking place in another room or across the Galaxy. He could glimpse the future, in its many chains of probability...and guage which path events were most likely to follow." Which was written in 1990/91! -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
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NewStaryknight Registered: Dec '07	Date Posted: 5/18 1:42pm Subject: RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
	So according to previous people who worked on SW stories Luke's been doing stuff like this for awhile now? Then whats the problem?
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Suzuki_Akira Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 5/18 4:55pm Subject: RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
	I agree that it's a degree of farsight that matches what we're seeing here, but the difference is I don't recall him acting on it in any significant fashion...more akin to observation. Plus we have reason to doubt the accuracy of that foresight - otherwise one would think he would have known to avoid his (near) fall. -----signature----- God is great, the Lord of all. "I find your lack of faith disturbing..." Those who dare oppose us will stand knee deep in the blood of their children. http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=158008483
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