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Topic:
Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
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Suzuki_Akira
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
5/15 9:57pm
Subject:
Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
- Date Edited:
5/15 10:08pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Havac
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Invincible may have uncovered possibly the most powerful Force feat available in the Star Wars universe. No fancy lights, explosions, but stunning nonetheless. Luke Skywalker was able to see futures...and pick one.
Now, the ability to see into the future is not unique to Luke or even to Jedi, although rarely do we see substantial future visions from all except the most powerful of Jedi. It seems that it's reserved for the more powerful of Force users. However, most that I can recall see only one or two futures - Anakin saw only one, for example, and very limited in focus. Also most visions I can recall are narrow in focus - again in Ani's case, just what would happen to his mother, and not the results of that.
Kwisatz Haderach, for the uninitiated, is a Dune reference to a character whose most important ability was the ability to see all possible futures for mankind and choose one by acting in a certain fashion. I liken Luke's vision to this because it has two essential components: 1) Cosmic scale 2) Alterable by the viewer.
Luke's visions fit not only those components but a third - able to effect the ability of others to view the future. What do you think the ramifications of these are, and how should we view the visions given other visions that have happened in EU?
You forgot to note the part that will keep this from getting killed: I approved this this time.
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Jek_Windu
Registered:
Jan '03
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Date Posted:
5/15 10:13pm
Subject:
RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
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Very interesting point- and to add to it, what does this mean for what comes after LOTF? Did Luke choose the state of the galaxy in Legacy? Is that why he appears to Cade exactly before critical junctures in his descendants' life?
Wow. I think Luke just graduated to the ultimate level of Scary Scary Scary Powerful.
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rumsmuggler
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
5/15 10:22pm
Subject:
RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
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Super Saiyan Luke ftw..
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" Conan, what's best in life?" " Crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentations of the women."
W.W.L.D. What Would Lando Do
"Why is the rum always gone?"
Retcons = making the dumb stuff look even dumber.
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patchworkz7
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
5/15 10:23pm
Subject:
RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
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Is anyone else kind of sick of the uber-powers?
I mean, flow-walking was kinda bad enough, but this is just...I don't care if it IS Luke Skywalker, it's turning him into Superman, which isn't what he's supposed to be. It also raises the question of why he'd ever guide the universe to a bad end, and raises the ghost of "power corrupts, and absolute power...", well, you know how it goes.
Don't just give Luke a new super-power to tell me how kick ass he is, SHOW him kicking ass and I'll respect him 100x more.
When exactly did he learn this power? If he had it before, why not use it to stop Jacen or stop Mara from dying or any of the many nasty things that happened?
It further distances him from the farmboy hero that kids believed they could grow up into and into the realm of demi-god, which isn't what I want out of the character.
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Original Fiction & essays "Does God Limp?" in HOUSE UNAUTHORIZED http://www.smartpopbooks.com/allbooks/2007.html#house "All Her Suicides" appears in: Vestal Review #31 Winter Issue On Sale Now
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Suzuki_Akira
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
5/15 10:27pm
Subject:
RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
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I'm not sure he knew he could do this before - he probably discovered it after the visions he got of the future, while meditating on how best to approach the situation.
That said, after the prequels and knowing the kind of potential Luke is heir to, this is really the logical jump for his character power-wise, although you can argue what it means for his personality.
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:23pm
Subject:
RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
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Is he really doing anything different than what Jacen did in Betrayal? See the possible futures resulting from that moment in time, and choose whatever action had the future appended to it that he liked best? Or is it something completely different? I haven't read the book yet, so I don't know.
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TheRedBlade
Registered:
Mar '07
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:24pm
Subject:
RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
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I don't think Luke is necissarily all-knowing or all seeing. All of the futures he saw were immediately tied to Jacen, a being he was focusing all of his concentration on. Also remeber that both Yoda and Mace were able to see snippets from many possible futures, also usually centered around a particular individual (usually Anakin). Really, I don't see Luke's visions as bucking the trend of what has been estabilished for Grand Master-level Jedi.
Luke is certainly more proactive in trying to effect those visions and manipulate the very ability to look into the Force than any other Jedi we've seen, but that fits his character and the personal stake he has in this case. I don't think he's going to gain any Dr. Manhattan-like abilities to constantly see all places at all times coming off of this book.
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Suzuki_Akira
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:30pm
Subject:
RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
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Jacen's vision in Betrayal was similar in that it involved multiple futures, but IIRC his only conclusion was that certain futures led to his killing of Luke, others to the other way round - limited in scope to him. I get this vibe that Luke's visions concern the entire galaxy.
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patchworkz7
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:45pm
Subject:
RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
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Havac posted:
Is he really doing anything different than what Jacen did in Betrayal? See the possible futures resulting from that moment in time, and choose whatever action had the future appended to it that he liked best? Or is it something completely different? I haven't read the book yet, so I don't know.
I wasn't wild about what Jacen was supposedly doing in BETRAYAL, FWIW.
It's one of those things that I'd rather Yoda just be right about, and I would have prefered Jacen's flaw to be that, once again, he believed that he couldn't be wrong about a vision, just like when he had a vision of saving the Vong slaves back in one of the first NJO books and ended up getting captured. The idea that he flipped through every possible future in his head like a notebook and was able to deduce what they all lead to...it's just a step too far in the power scale, imo, and takes them right out of the realm of interesting characters and into demi-god territory.
Don't get me wrong, I want competant Jedi, and a powerful Skywalker, but I don't think the powers should get THAT out of hand, imo.
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Original Fiction & essays "Does God Limp?" in HOUSE UNAUTHORIZED http://www.smartpopbooks.com/allbooks/2007.html#house "All Her Suicides" appears in: Vestal Review #31 Winter Issue On Sale Now
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rumsmuggler
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:51pm
Subject:
RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
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Luke's been bouncing back and forth between restraining himself and having demigod like power for ages now.
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" Conan, what's best in life?" " Crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentations of the women."
W.W.L.D. What Would Lando Do
"Why is the rum always gone?"
Retcons = making the dumb stuff look even dumber.
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Emperor_Time
Registered:
Aug '07
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:53pm
Subject:
RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
- Date Edited:
5/15 11:58pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Emperor_Time
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Suzuki_Akira posted:
Jacen's vision in Betrayal was similar in that it involved multiple futures, but IIRC his only conclusion was that certain futures led to his killing of Luke, others to the other way round - limited in scope to him. I get this vibe that Luke's visions concern the entire galaxy.
Were any of those possible futures talked about in detail since I forgot if the book does or is it just skim over instead? 
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dp4m
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:54pm
Subject:
RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
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patchworkz7 posted:
It's one of those things that I'd rather Yoda just be right about.
You mean other than lying through his teeth to get Luke to stay?
Yoda was NEVER EVER correct until Del Rey made it such. 
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Jedi Ben
Registered:
Jul '99
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Date Posted:
5/16 4:26am
Subject:
RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
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Luke's ability to sift through futures was estblished by the notes in the first issue of Dark Empire, so whilst there may be a new application of it, I wouldn't say the ability is new.
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Jedimarine
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
5/16 5:49am
Subject:
RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
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None of this is going to matter much because the skill is never going to be utilized with any regularity...it would be too much work.
As such, to assume Luke would use such power to dictate each step of his life...is...boring.
It was a plot device...a "cool" feat tossed in...and in the next book, there won't even be a mention of it.
I agree with those stating it's overboard...same with flow-walking...it's simply taking the heroes to "another level" because it's all they can come up with.
Pretty soon, Luke's gonna have to whip up one of those force storms that can transport people through the void, like in DE. That is the absurd level we might be facing. (and I love DE):)
visions are one thing...but the thing about visions is that they don't always come to pass (and everyone who draws a paycheck based on this material had better be EXTREMELY thankful this is so.)
The problem with being the Kwisatz Haderach is detailed as well...it isn't the happiest role in the universe...that's for sure...Luke has a hard enough time being Galactic babysitter...let's not add "bus driver" to it.
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rumsmuggler
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
5/16 6:28am
Subject:
RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
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At least he can turn it off. Paul couldn't.
-----signature-----
" Conan, what's best in life?" " Crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentations of the women."
W.W.L.D. What Would Lando Do
"Why is the rum always gone?"
Retcons = making the dumb stuff look even dumber.
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Corusca_One
Registered:
Oct '05
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Date Posted:
5/16 6:47am
Subject:
RE: Luke Skywalker, Kwisatz Haderach: Clairvoyance in EU (Major Invincible Spoilers)
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dp4m posted:
patchworkz7 posted:
It's one of those things that I'd rather Yoda just be right about.
You mean other than lying through his teeth to get Luke to stay?
Everything Yoda told Luke was a lie? Where have I heard something similar to that before? 
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