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Author	Topic: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
beccatoria Title: 181st Imperial Discussion Group host Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 6/1 5:05am Subject: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm! - Date Edited: 6/1 5:07am (1 edits total) Edited By: beccatoria
	Welcome everybody! This month the 181st Imperial Discussion Group will be discussing Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm by Michael P Kube-McDowell. Here is a link to the TF.N Staff Reviews. As usual, I'll be chipping in with my own opinions as we go. Here are some discussion points to get the ball rolling but please don't feel limited to them! There's a lot that happens in this book and a lot of plotlines, not all of which are covered below. If discussion dies down, I have some more detailed notes and may post some more specific talking points on a chapter-by-chapter basis as the thread continues. - The Force and the Jedi take a back seat in this novel. We get a lot more Fleet Junkie action - new ships, tactics, new weapons, heck, a whole new FLEET. Is this something you enjoyed, or do you prefer the military action relegated to huge, hulking ships in the background while Lando makes a run on the Death Star? Any general comments on the new Fleet information we got here? - What did you make of Luke's characterisation? Was a making a wise decision to isolate himself and leave the Praxeum? Was he scared? Arrogant? Looking for a direction? All of the above? None? - What did you make of Leia's characterisation? Was she horribly naive to ever trust Nil Spaar? Did she have to give him the benefit of the doubt to be true to her character? How about her bitter apathy near the end? - How about the Yevetha themselves? Did they remind you of the Yuuzhan Vong? Were they new and original? Do they do their job as villains? And...take it away! In July we will be discussing Black Fleet Crisis: Shield of Lies by Michael P Kube-McDowell. -----signature----- legatus imperatoris britanniæ superior REMEMBER: DARTH MAUL: SHADOW HUNTER DISCUSSION STARTS IN NOVEMBER! Han's a girl, so I got a Golden Ewok.
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sabarte Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 6/1 9:11am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	The Yevetha just rocked. They were executed much better than the Vong, and their POVs were done brilliantly.
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Robimus Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 6/1 9:30am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	Still trying to find this book from my land of lost books. I did find Shield of Lies though........... . Murphy's law maybe? From memory(its been 12 years so I'm probably a little fuzzy), I remember enjoying the Lando and Lobot portions of the book( and series ) the most. I miss Lobot, hope the Vong didn't get him............ Nil Spaar is cold blooded and calculating, the Yevetha frightening but certainly no threat to the galactic peace as a whole. Prehap's Spaar was ignorant of the galaxy, but the idea that he ever thought his people would have the power sustain the genocides of non Yevetha within their borders while provoking/mocking the New Republic seemed over ambitious to me. I must find this book......... -----signature----- I am forever seeking the damutek of Hooley Krekk Oh, woe! Oh, misery! Oh, unhappiness. Hooley Krekk where are you?
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AdmiralNick22 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 6/1 9:34am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	Before the Storm contains one of the best portrayls of Admiral Ackbar. As good as any of his fantastic appearances in books by Mike Stackpole or Kevin J. Anderson. KMac wrote his relationship with Princess Leia Organa Solo in a way that conveyed a touching closeness. In fact, Admiral Ackbar is established as a close friend of the Solo family, with his own private key to their home in the Imperial Palace. I also loved the fact that he refered to young Anakin Solo as "my little fish", due to the young boys love of the water. One scence from Han's point of view describes Ackbar's fatherly care for Leia. In fact, with both Ackbar and Mon Mothma, KMac shows the close bonds of friendship that formed between Rebel leaders during their decades of fighting together. KMac's writing literally helped found the Fleet Junkie spirit in the EU. While many of the ships he developed went on to be banished to the purgatory of the EU, the foundations he laid in setting up the organization of the New Republic Defense Fleet remain to this day. He established a clear heirarchy, clarified the post of Supreme Commander, instituted the numbered fleets, established new officers (many of whom went on to play roles in the NJO), and gave an overall organization that authors since have used. Much of this has been carried over by authors when the NR reorganized into the Galactic Alliance. The structure of galactic government was also established by KMac. He was the author that definitively established the post-Provisional Council government. As he did with the NRDF, he established organization and branches to the New Republic government. The Senate councils, Defense councils, Judiciary Committes- all created by KMac. He explained the various ministries of the government, fleshed out the Senate, and made the NR's leadership appear to be more than just Mon Mothma or Leia. Ironically, these changes were all not entirely welcome or appreciated when they first appeared. Many fans felt that the books were a bit out of place. That they were good stories, but that they did not properly mesh with previous books. KMac's one flaw was that he introduced SO MUCH new stuff at once without involving many of the characters and situations fans were accustomed to. His ideas were all a bit ahead of where the EU was at the time. However, KMac's contributions to the EU are fully felt and recognized in the NJO. Many of the best parts of the NJO come from things he created. Now we all take for granted the Senate, Defense Force, various offices, commanders, etc. But, without KMac, alot of these things may of never been incorporated into the Expanded Universe. --Adm. Nick -----signature----- Fleet Junkie Founding Father Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan "A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker "I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi Antilles/Celchu 08
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timmoishere Registered: Jun '07	Date Posted: 6/1 10:11am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	I enjoyed the Leia sections of the book most. Her debates with Nil Spaar were very effective, even when we, as a reader, knew that Spaar was bad to the bone. His mind games when the Aramadia was trying to leave Coruscant also worked, due to the political foundation he laid with Leia and the others. The Lando sections were also done very well. The Qella ship was introduced with just the right amount of mystery and danger, and I looked forward to these sections of the book. Since the Luke storyline was a wild goose chase, I can't find many redeeming factors about what he was doing. The Yevethan Purge itself was fantastic. Several POV sections of colonists realizing that they're beaten and they walk straight into their executions. Plat Mallar's escape from Polneye showed a desperation both in Mallar's personal safety, and his realization he had to get the word out to the New Republic. I can't wait till we get to Tyrant's Test and we can discuss the Wookiee Rescue Party. -----signature----- What ain't no country I ever heard of. They speak English in What? Vikings > Pirates > Ninjas Everything tastes better wrapped in bacon, especially bacon
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JediAlly Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 6/1 12:12pm Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm! - Date Edited: 6/1 12:14pm (1 edits total) Edited By: JediAlly
	Sometimes I wonder what was the entire point of this series - just to fill in a gap in EU history. I didn't particularly cared for the Lando parts of the entire trilogy. Those aside, there were two parts that I loved in this book. #1. Luke going hermit: I think Luke's section of the entire trilogy stems from his limited training from Obi-Wan and Yoda, and they trained him to be a weapon against the Sith. He had no idea how to be a Jedi Master. When he explained the problem to Han in terms he could understand, and said that the two options he had were to either walk away or seize control like Palpatine seized control of the Empire, I can understand his chain of thoughts and reasoning. But still, chalk this up to the rushed, half-on/half-off education and lack of role models. And by lack of role models I mean there hadn't been anyone around to help guide him. I have to wonder if this is the point where Leia started showing how much Jedi insight she had, and I say that because she more or less told Luke that he needed to calm down and let the Force guide him, rather than actively guide the Force to do what he wanted to do. Luke doesn't get this message until the Hand of Thrawn duology and realized how stupid he's been acting and how much worry he'd Leia, Corran, Mara, and countless others through. #2. Leia: What happened to her as a politician? She's supposed to have a really sharp sense of politics, yet she allowed Nil Spaar to dictate all the terms, so as to speak. Meet him halfway, fine, but don't let him dictate all the terms. She tried to see the best in people, and somehow, I don't think politicians should allow themselves to do that. And as a result, she got herself into a political mess she spent the next two novels straightening out. Members of the military were smart enough to see that she was getting herself into a mess and took steps to try and mitigate the political fallout and show Leia what Nil Spaar was really like. The best line of this book, and one of the best lines of the entire trilogy, was this part of the conversation between A'baht and Drayson. I don't have the book in front of me, and I don't recall it word for word, but it was where Drayson was asking A'baht to scout the Koornacht Cluster and to ask a friend to send probe ships into key systems within the Cluster. It went something like this: "Why are you asking me to do this?" A'baht asked Drayson. "Let me answer your question with a question. Do you think Princess Leia is handling the situation correctly?" A'baht didn't answer. "That's why. I want her to have the correct information so she can address this problem with all the facts on hand." Given how often she'd been in combat and the near fiasco that Fey'lya nearly caused when he made his power play during Thrawn's campaign, I would have thought Leia would have known not to make military decisions based on political maneuvering or so she'd be politically correct. Thankfully, Han was able to show her the mistakes she had made. One last thing. Leia's statement that it's impossible to do anything because no three people in the senate can come to a consensus - I look at that now and I have wonder if that's a bit of foreshadowing to the downfall of the New Republic during the Vong War. -----signature----- A Gathering of Light - new site: http://boards.theforce.net/Beyond_the_Saga/b10477/15798221 Liberty and Custody: http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=14219579 Solo Rogue Jedi: http://boards.theforce.net/Beyond_the_Saga/b10477/15798533
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 6/1 12:47pm Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	While I can well understand Nick's appreciation for this book as a hopelessly addicted Fleet Junkie( ) it didn't do much for me. Perhaps the thing that stuck out most was Leia's strange optimism over Nil Spaar and her refusal to listen to advice coupled with her taking out her frustrations on Han and Luke who just sat there and took it. Both Drayson and A'Baht have excellent reasons for being suspicious of the Yevetha and their concern over the vanishing of the Black Fleet, given the furore in our world over WMDs, a fleet of missing SDs including an SSD is cause for concern, but Leia dismisses it. Later Luke mentions he's going to look for their mother to which Leia goes nuclear on him, never mind that, unlike her, Luke has no memory of his mother - he is going to be interested in this. It's odd that Leia should decide to go all realist on him on this point while she's engaging in dreamy optimism with Nil Spaar. As such I find the trilogy exasperating as it has an excellent central Q: Under what conditions is it permissible to use force against an enemy or threat and to what degree? this is coupled with the equally good: What is permissible to avoid a war? Yet it never really engages with these questions as much as it could. At the same time it could be said the clashes Leia has with the other characters are setting up a character-building arc but one doesn't appear. She gets herself out of a hole with a speech and lets A'Baht off the leash and Luke comes back and just caves in to her. The sad thing here is that it could've made an excellent arc for Leia. (In fact for a Fleet Junkie or anyone interested in the battles of SW the final Battle of N'zoth is a missed opportunity, for it's mostly done off-screen.) It's been said that BFC is a proto-NJO in many ways, that it handles similar themes and to a degree there's a lot of truth to that. I'd be inclined to say BFC does a better job of it than NJO, but like the bigger story, it never seemed to possess the convictions to really run riot with its ideas. -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
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beccatoria Title: 181st Imperial Discussion Group host Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 6/1 2:42pm Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	sabarte posted: The Yevetha just rocked. They were executed much better than the Vong, and their POVs were done brilliantly. I'm not sure I'd say they were better done than the Vong as I think at times, under certain authors, such as Stackpole and Stover, the Vong perspective was fabulously rendered. But I will say that there are a lot of similarities and KMac nailed them. I was particularly interested in their introduction. They're slaves of the Empire; immediately a position that means the reader is going to default towards feeling sympathy for them. All they're doing is the same thing the Rebels did - violently combatting the Imperial Machine. But even here, it's very clear that All Is Not Well and there's a dangerous, brutal xenophobia to them. Robimus posted: Still trying to find this book from my land of lost books. I did find Shield of Lies though........... . Murphy's law maybe? Argh! Totally Murphy's Law! Well, thanks for sharing your thoughts anyway and good luck with the book hunt! Robimus posted: From memory(its been 12 years so I'm probably a little fuzzy), I remember enjoying the Lando and Lobot portions of the book( and series ) the most. I miss Lobot, hope the Vong didn't get him............ You know, my recollection from reading these novels originally was more in line with JediAlly's comments below - I remember finding the Lando and Lobot sections dull and boring and confusing. I didn't really know Lando very well because he wasn't often used and Lobot didn't interest me at all. But apparently over a decade of downtime can really change an opinion. I actually found myself really enjoying it this time around. The archeological puzzle of it intrigued me. Though the fact I've developed a real appreciation for Lando since I was a kid first reading these things, and I think that the author really nailed him. He was a joy to read. AdmiralNick22 posted: Before the Storm contains one of the best portrayls of Admiral Ackbar. As good as any of his fantastic appearances in books by Mike Stackpole or Kevin J. Anderson. KMac wrote his relationship with Princess Leia Organa Solo in a way that conveyed a touching closeness. I knew I could count on you to bring the Fleet Junkie and Ackbar commentary! Actually, being married to someone who claims to be the world's biggest Ackbar fan (he's lying, I told him, there is always a bigger fish [fan on the internet ]...) but who isn't really interested in much of the EU, these are the only books I've ever tried to push on him aside from TTT. Especially since his other favourite character is Lando. So while reading this, I did have to put up with endless conversations that went something like this: "Are you still reading your Star Wars book?" "Yes." "What's Ackbar doing now?" And I gotta say as a result I probably paid more attention to him than I otherwise would have. He came across very well in this. Probably the sanest character in the book, or at least, the noblest. I was unexpectedly affected by the scene with the researcher trying to break into his habitation dome. But KMac is good at bringing the angst with the minor characters. I have to say, though, I found the bit at the end when Ackbar went into Han and Leia's bedroom uninvited and casually "hoped his friends weren't busy mating," to be a bit... I mean, he just opens the door and turnes on the light! Hasn't he heard of at least knocking? AdmiralNick22 posted: However, KMac's contributions to the EU are fully felt and recognized in the NJO. Many of the best parts of the NJO come from things he created. Now we all take for granted the Senate, Defense Force, various offices, commanders, etc. But, without KMac, alot of these things may of never been incorporated into the Expanded Universe. Thank you for the reminder on this, Nick. To be honest, I'm not a Fleet Junkie, and while the writing was interesting enough that I didn't find it actively boring, I also found the bits that were devoted to ship deployments or the types of weapons used to be the most boring parts of the book. But I can appreciate that they are necessary parts of such an organic and detailed universe, and we ought to be thankful to KMac for starting to flesh them out. And while I wasn't particularly interested in that sort of stuff, there were a few mentions of a more "Fleet Junkie" nature that really tickled me. Like the details about the junk-hunters and the fact that there were now parts of space designated as Historical Battle Sites! Weird details that I'd never have thought of but are...so amusing and also make sense. I also really appreciated getting information on the Republic - what they govern, what they don't, the role of the CoS. That was great stuff. timmoishere posted: I enjoyed the Leia sections of the book most. Her debates with Nil Spaar were very effective, even when we, as a reader, knew that Spaar was bad to the bone. His mind games when the Aramadia was trying to leave Coruscant also worked, due to the political foundation he laid with Leia and the others. I find myself strangely conflicted about Leia's story. On the one hand I enjoyed the emotional roller coaster and sympathised with her desire to see the best in Spaar considering she was attempting to define the Republic in opposition to the Empire, but at the same time, I felt there was something strange and off-kilter about her behaviour? timmoishere posted: Since the Luke storyline was a wild goose chase, I can't find many redeeming factors about what he was doing. I also have to agree with you...to a degree. I do have to admit it was, when I originally read it, the storyline that captured my imagination the most because it dangled the carrot of Luke's mother at me. Knowing that's a fake-out really affects my feelings on the storyline as it reminds me of the massive sense of betrayal I was left with when it all turned out to be a scam the first time I read it? That said, I found Luke's characterisation in the "hermit" section fascinating and I'm going to talk about that a little more when replying to JediAlly below. timmoishere posted: The Yevethan Purge itself was fantastic. Several POV sections of colonists realizing that they're beaten and they walk straight into their executions. Plat Mallar's escape from Polneye showed a desperation both in Mallar's personal safety, and his realization he had to get the word out to the New Republic. Emotionally manipulative though it may be, KMac is the master of introducing minor characters and giving them backgrounds that you care about only to kill them in the middle of some mundane activity, or put them through emotionally traumatising situations, and I tip my hat to him: Plat Mallar's section of the storyline, despite getting about a page of background and entering into the novel at the last possible moment, was probably the part that I found most emotionally affecting. JediAlly posted: Luke going hermit: I think Luke's section of the entire trilogy stems from his limited training from Obi-Wan and Yoda, and they trained him to be a weapon against the Sith. He had no idea how to be a Jedi Master. When he explained the problem to Han in terms he could understand, and said that the two options he had were to either walk away or seize control like Palpatine seized control of the Empire, I can understand his chain of thoughts and reasoning. But still, chalk this up to the rushed, half-on/half-off education and lack of role models. I think you're absolutely right here. I know that I found his behaviour very disconcerting even as I thought there was a certain chilling sense in his reasoning that Jedi Masters must eventually choose to walk away from it all or control it all. That was, quite frankly, a stunning example of extrapolative story-telling even though it's not the direction the EU or G-canon went with. However, despite understanding that I found Luke to be chilling, frightening. I think that you make an excellent point when you say he had no role models. And his abilities had isolated him to the point where he wouldn't listen to anyone else on Force-matters because he clearly knows more than they do. I know that HoT has Mara say that Luke's lack of direction, uncontrolled use of power and general confusion dates back to his dip into the dark side, and I agree that was the start of it. It's even present to a degree in the JAT, but I think that here is where we first see how utterly lost Luke is. JediAlly posted: Leia: What happened to her as a politician? She's supposed to have a really sharp sense of politics, yet she allowed Nil Spaar to dictate all the terms, so as to speak. In some ways I think that KMac did a good job with this as I did feel sympathy for Leia. It never tipped, for me, into the realms of, "Well okay, girl, now you're just acting whacked." But...at the same time, I was left with the same questions as you. I think there's a partial explanation as to Leia allowing Nil Spaar to dictate so many terms in that she didn't realise the game they were playing. She thought she was allowing him to dictate more of the negotiating terms because if he didn't want into the New Republic then there wasn't a game at all, and if he did want in, then she was most definitely going to be dictating the membership terms. That's part of the problem though. Less Leia being taken in by Spaar initially and more her inability to realise that he's turned on her and continual beliefs that this must be some sort of mistake. Again, she manages to keep herself from my bad books because she does listen to her military commanders. There's even a point when Ackbar tells her that he will resign he feels that strongly and she realises that she can't make this decision based on commercial politics and if Ackbar feels this way, she should agree. But... Well, Jedi Ben has, I think, hit on something really, really important: Jedi Ben posted: As such I find the trilogy exasperating as it has an excellent central Q: Under what conditions is it permissible to use force against an enemy or threat and to what degree? this is coupled with the equally good: What is permissible to avoid a war? Yet it never really engages with these questions as much as it could. I think this is the key. Leia's reluctance to resort to seemingly threatening (and perhaps actually threatening) military behaviour, given the history the galaxy has with the Empire, could have made for some first rate political discussion. But we never get a complex discussion about the extent of "acceptable force", nor counter-examples where behaviour such as sending the Fifth Fleet into someone else's territory has backfired horribly, and so it does seem like something of a wasted opportunity. Leia's motivations seem more idealistic than optimistic, more naive than measured. JediAlly posted: One last thing. Leia's statement that it's impossible to do anything because no three people in the senate can come to a consensus - I look at that now and I have wonder if that's a bit of foreshadowing to the downfall of the New Republic during the Vong War. Well it almost certainly wasn't deliberate but yes, in the context of the NJO, it's almost as ironic as Leia's statement to Luke about how her children are going to grow up leading normal lives with stories about little every day nothings where no one dies and no one has to live with secret shame. Jedi Ben posted: Later Luke mentions he's going to look for their mother to which Leia goes nuclear on him, never mind that, unlike her, Luke has no memory of his mother - he is going to be interested in this. It's odd that Leia should decide to go all realist on him on this point while she's engaging in dreamy optimism with Nil Spaar. Actually I really enjoyed that scene. It wasn't really about realism versus optimism for Leia. In some ways she's just as much in denial as she is about Nil Spaar, except she knows too well what she's trying to ignore. Leia still isn't comfortable with the fact that Vader was her father, and having just read I, Jedi I'm forced to compare Luke's admission of his parentage to the accepting group of Jedi students he gathered, with Leia having that fact thrown in her face as an insult in the senate. With the rather chilling revelation that women keep showing up pretending to be the twins' mother. And let's not forget at this point, Leia isn't just "not having enough time to train," she actively dislikes using the Force - comparing relying on it to using caffeine or another stimulant. And she explodes at Luke, I think, less because of what he's asking and more because he showed up demanding her support with no understanding that he'd been refusing to support her. Now, Luke actually had a really good point about Leia not needing to be undermined in front of her kids, but he didn't express it well to her, and didn't show any degree of sensitivity towards her situation or her fears. And instead dragged up her worst nightmare. I don't think Leia cared so much that Luke was looking for their mother as she was angry with him for abandoning her then showing up on her doorstep without even an, "I'm sorry I didn't come to help you, but..." It's not a Jedi trait, it's not necessarily a positive trait, but it is a very Leia trait, and I really like that she's the twin who has the angry streak. And also, I thought Luke was being really insensitive in that scene so hooray for yelling at him! -----signature----- legatus imperatoris britanniæ superior REMEMBER: DARTH MAUL: SHADOW HUNTER DISCUSSION STARTS IN NOVEMBER! Han's a girl, so I got a Golden Ewok.
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 6/1 3:11pm Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	with Leia having that fact thrown in her face as an insult in the senate. With the rather chilling revelation that women keep showing up pretending to be the twins' mother. * That was one of the smarter points in the novel, people trying to take advantage of the fame. And let's not forget at this point, Leia isn't just "not having enough time to train," she actively dislikes using the Force - comparing relying on it to using caffeine or another stimulant. * That kind of shows how badly Leia doesn't get the Force, doesn't it? And she explodes at Luke, I think, less because of what he's asking and more because he showed up demanding her support with no understanding that he'd been refusing to support her. * Luke may well not believe Leia needed any help. Either that or she was asking subtly, forgetting that her brother is also a bloke. We don't do subtle, if you need help, just tell us. Now, Luke actually had a really good point about Leia not needing to be undermined in front of her kids, but he didn't express it well to her, and didn't show any degree of sensitivity towards her situation or her fears. And instead dragged up her worst nightmare. * It's been a long time since I owned a copy of the book so the details are going to have been lost in the overflowing cup of memory...You do know Discworld? I don't think Leia cared so much that Luke was looking for their mother as she was angry with him for abandoning her then showing up on her doorstep without even an, "I'm sorry I didn't come to help you, but..." * I think it could just as easily be a case of Luke not wanting to step on his sister's turf though, too. It's not a Jedi trait, it's not necessarily a positive trait, but it is a very Leia trait, and I really like that she's the twin who has the angry streak. * I wouldn't mind it so much, if she reaped a consequence every now and again, in real life you don't get to go verbally nuclear without a response and, as a Jedi, she acknowledges and addresses it, but unless there's been some prgression in LOTF no one's mentioned, I don't see that happening. Meanwhile whenever Luke gets so much as mildly miffed, fans start invoking the term Dark Luke, what about Dark Leia? -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
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sabarte Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 6/1 3:11pm Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	I think for me the Lando bits would have come across better if I hadn't read the Lando Trilogy beforehand. His attitude towards the droids...jarred.
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Bly Registered: Mar '05	Date Posted: 6/1 3:33pm Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	I had a giant post typed up for this...and then I accidentially hit the backspace button. With luck, I'll have it up tomorrow. -----signature----- Honored recepient of Thrawn McEwok's Bronze Thranta™ A Liberal and proud of it "Politics is simply the continuation of war by other means." --Mandalore the Ultimate Formerly known as Commander5052
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Havac Title: Lit Mod of War Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 6/1 7:06pm Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	I think one of the things that make the BFC feel a little off is that, as much as K-Mac referenced other stuff (he's quite good at dropping little references in), he was essentially doing his interpretation of Star Wars, and I think that's most evident in the Luke plotline. He takes Luke off in a direction you really don't see anywhere else in Star Wars -- as a supremely powerful man who decides to become an utterly mystic hermit. It's a far more mystical, spiritual take on the Force and the Jedi than you see in, say, the JAT or Darksaber, where it's "Jedi go and stab bad guys!" I was a bit baffled by it and how it fit in with anything else, but it comes together in the end of Tyrant's Test, when Luke realizes that it was a mistake to try to retreat. That the philosophy embraced in BTS is a mistake; it's the thoughts of a man suffering complete burnout and having to go on sabbatical, really, to get away from it and refresh. The Luke bits completely bored me as a younger guy reading these, but on rereading them, I was able to appreciate the philosophical questions more and I wasn't really bothered. It's still slow, but it didn't grate on me. Speaking of burnout, that's the running theme of Leia's characterization as well. I recall strongly disliking Leia's role the first time I read it, too -- I was convinced she was an idiot and it didn't make sense. But rereading it, I came to appreciate that Leia's burned out. She doesn't want war. She doesn't want to lead the New Republic wrong. She doesn't want it to become the Empire. The criticism is getting to her, the responsibility is getting to her, and she's just worn down. When confronted with Spaar, she's determined not to give up hope, to see the best of it. She doesn't want to admit she can't win it, that she's wasted so much of her time, that she has an enemy and not an ally. It's a bit more human than we usually see Leia (compare burnout making Luke become less human) but it's believable for me. The real strength of Leia's plotline, the main plotline, is the portrayal of the NR as a real government. A government with a thought-out structure, a ministry, a senate, a series of committees, a military command with a new fleet. And the characters populating that world -- from bit players like Alole and Cundertol to major figures like Engh, Ackbar, and A'baht -- are just awesome. They give you the feeling that you're really behind the scenes in a living, breathing government where not everyone gets along, rather than the sort of "sci-fi government" where the president and the commander sit around palling it up and calling the shots and there's no one else in government. I loved A'baht in this book, and I'm disappointed we never get as much from him again. He's a fascinating character. One thing that I did find odd, though, was that so little happens in this plotline. It's very much before the storm -- we just get a little political maneuvering, no fleet action, and a crisis just beginning as we end the book. It's a pretty slow start. The standout here is Lando's plotline. From the first scene, where Lando has his boots up on the most secure desk on Coruscant, no explanation -- it's just unbefreakinglievably cool. It reminded me why I just love the hell out of Lando. Then he puts together his team (I loved the use of Lobot, who's treated as an old pal and a con buddy of Lando's -- it's a treatment I wish he got elsewhere. No where else has he gotten so much love) and we're off into an awesome sci-fi Indiana Jones mystery adventure badass event thing. It's right back to the roots of Lando in Lando Calrissian and the Mindharp of Sharu. It's a super-fun kind of sci-fi plotline we just don't see in Star Wars that much. I don't even care that it doesn't really play into any of the other plotlines at all; it's just so damn cool that its existence justifies itself. -----signature----- "Have you not yet learned, Executor, that everything I tell you is the truth?" - Vergere Recipient of Thrawn McEwok's Sexually Ambiguous Tusken Raider™ and a Special Golden Ewok™ "Reality doesn't care if you believe it." - Boba Fett
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 6/1 8:43pm Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	Jedi Ben posted: We don't do subtle, if you need help, just tell us. Yeah, really. We're not psychic. -----signature----- The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 6/2 11:20am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	Had to reply to Havac's post: "I think one of the things that make the BFC feel a little off is that, as much as K-Mac referenced other stuff (he's quite good at dropping little references in), he was essentially doing his interpretation of Star Wars, and I think that's most evident in the Luke plotline. He takes Luke off in a direction you really don't see anywhere else in Star Wars -- as a supremely powerful man who decides to become an utterly mystic hermit." * What was well-conveyed was the dilemna Luke was in, which was that he was too aware of what was going on, that he had to choose who to save and help and who not and it was driving him to despair. What the arc is for Luke is to regain the belief that people will be able to do all-right without him. People say Zahn did similar with Luke in HoT but the BFc did it first and arguably better. "Speaking of burnout, that's the running theme of Leia's characterization as well. I recall strongly disliking Leia's role the first time I read it, too -- I was convinced she was an idiot and it didn't make sense. But rereading it, I came to appreciate that Leia's burned out. She doesn't want war. She doesn't want to lead the New Republic wrong. She doesn't want it to become the Empire. The criticism is getting to her, the responsibility is getting to her, and she's just worn down." * Have to agree the burnout is quite obvious, but two things really prevent Leia from solving her problems and have probably led her to this mess and both are linked to her upbringing. She was raised as an aristocrat. Aristocracies tend to emphasise two rules: Never show weakness and always be the one in control. With those two rules so deeply embedded in her Leia's on the road to self-destruction. When confronted with Spaar, she's determined not to give up hope, to see the best of it. She doesn't want to admit she can't win it, that she's wasted so much of her time, that she has an enemy and not an ally. It's a bit more human than we usually see Leia (compare burnout making Luke become less human) but it's believable for me. * This is the other element of control coming out to its worst element in Leia, that she cannot conceive of a system not wanting to join the NR but it also means that system is out of her reach. At the same time though I feel Leia was strangely portrayed here. She would have been used to the kind of games Spaar plays due to Fey'Lya, who was also adept at using past horrors as justification for his xenophobia and empire-building; yet she seems to not be so here. "I loved A'baht in this book, and I'm disappointed we never get as much from him again. He's a fascinating character." You're not the only one. What I like about the character is that he's a commander who's fully aware of what command entails yet doesn't shirk from it, he's prepared to face the hard realities of warfare and isn't interested in grand rhetoric. -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
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The2ndQuest Title: : -Games -LACWAC -Lit Mod of Death Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 6/2 11:29am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm! - Date Edited: 6/2 11:29am (1 edits total) Edited By: The2ndQuest
	I recall BTS being the fastest I ever finished a SW book- the Yeventha/Leia political plotline just really drew me in, and I was really digging the Rendezvous With Rama-esque feel to the Lando plotline. The Luke plotline, not realizing it was a wild goose chase at the time, also at least hooked me with the promise of revealing info about Luke's mother. I also think this was one of the last books to really push the E-Wing as the X-Wing successor, before we reverted to the XJ series. I also liked the notion of the K-Wing as the B or Y-Wing successor, even though it didn't pan out that way. And it's gorgeous. -----signature----- K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker? Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..." Is your Death Magnetic?
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beccatoria Title: 181st Imperial Discussion Group host Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 6/2 2:23pm Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	Argh, my INTERNET went DOWN today! For FOUR WHOLE HOURS! It was harsh, man... Fortunately, I return to great discussion! Jedi Ben posted: * That kind of shows how badly Leia doesn't get the Force, doesn't it? Hmm, interesting point, but to be honest, I think that it's more stubborn pride than lack of understanding? It's a casual reference that doesn't so much link the Force and Caffeine literally, but more compares Leia's pride in refusing to indulge in either? I, at least, got the impression that she was afraid of really embracing her Jedi heritage, and was responding like Ben in DNT. By wanting to do things the Hard Way. A response borne of fear, and not healthy, sure, but I don't think indicative of a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the Force? Jedi Ben posted: Luke may well not believe Leia needed any help. Either that or she was asking subtly, forgetting that her brother is also a bloke. We don't do subtle, if you need help, just tell us. True. Though my impression while reading the book was that the author deliberately wrote Luke as too excited to pay attention to his sister's anxiety and hurt feelings. For instance, in his hermitage, he notes that after the first few weeks Leia stopped reaching out to him and he knew she was very hurt by his refusal to respond, but it says he [paraphrased] 'cared less about the reasons she'd stopped reaching out than the fact she'd stopped reaching out.' Also, I'm not sure how much you get to rely on the "blokes aren't subtle!" excuse if you're supposed to be a perceptive Jedi Master... Jedi Ben posted: I wouldn't mind it so much, if she reaped a consequence every now and again, in real life you don't get to go verbally nuclear without a response and, as a Jedi, she acknowledges and addresses it, but unless there's been some prgression in LOTF no one's mentioned, I don't see that happening. Meanwhile whenever Luke gets so much as mildly miffed, fans start invoking the term Dark Luke, what about Dark Leia? ...you probably don't want me to get started on Dark Leia. But to put it briefly, she's by far the darker twin and I'm fascinated by her seeming ability to walk very, very close to the edge without actually falling over it. It just happens to be a part of her character I like. I think maybe that's why I was glad to see her written this way here, in some ways? I mean, in this scene specifically? Because it felt like the author was aware of that side of the character and it wasn't just something that slipped in around the edges because Princess Leia is never Wrong? sabarte posted: I think for me the Lando bits would have come across better if I hadn't read the Lando Trilogy beforehand. His attitude towards the droids...jarred. Oooh, can you elaborate on that? I haven't actually read the Lando trilogy yet (though I really want to), so I'm not sure what you're talking about, but it sounds like it could be relevant to this discussion? Bly posted: I had a giant post typed up for this...and then I accidentially hit the backspace button. With luck, I'll have it up tomorrow. I hate it when that happens! Actually what more often happens to me is I forget to copy the post before I hit the submit button and then my connection or the boards screw up, but same end result. Havac posted: It's a far more mystical, spiritual take on the Force and the Jedi than you see in, say, the JAT or Darksaber, where it's "Jedi go and stab bad guys!" I think that's a good observation and also perhaps the White Current fits into this. To be honest, I'm still confused over the way it is part of the Force but involves things Luke's not immediately able to pick up on, or the way Akanah's "Force reflex" doesn't function when Luke first meets her. I suppose in some ways, KMac is taking the view of the Jedi as an "ancient religion" and a wandering Order that seemed popular in the pre-PT EU to an extreme; it's just in context with the post-PT EU it doesn't fit quite as well? But it is the sort of world that supports yet more crazy magical religions. I can't actually quite remember the end of this series, but is White Current=Force something KMac gives us or simply a retcon applied later? Havac posted: That the philosophy embraced in BTS is a mistake; it's the thoughts of a man suffering complete burnout and having to go on sabbatical, really, to get away from it and refresh. Again, this is a really interesting observation. My thoughts on reading it in context with the NJO and LOTF is that this is the start of a pattern we see many times in Luke. A deep and fundamental confusion about his role in the galaxy with this godlike power he's been given when there isn't a clear-cut course of action. In the future we don't see him literally leave because he learned that lesson. But he replaces his hermit-tendencies with reluctance to act at all; effectively pulling the entire Jedi Order into a kind of isolation from the rest of the galaxy. Until someone dies, or something so horrible happens, he has something he understands how to act on again. It makes me wonder if that "we have to control the galaxy or we have to leave the galaxy utterly alone," thing doesn't still work perfectly as an analogy for the Jedi as a whole? When they enter situations, they dominate them. They win wars, they choose leaders, they beat back galaxy-wide invasions. When they decide they're going to have an impact, nothing stops them. So they have to choose to stop themselves? Note - I'm not thinking that every instance of control has to be Palpatinelike. Sometimes it's clearly the best thing that could possibly happen to the citizenry of the galaxy, like when Luke decided he was going to win the YV war or die trying. But it's still control. Havac posted: When confronted with Spaar, she's determined not to give up hope, to see the best of it. She doesn't want to admit she can't win it, that she's wasted so much of her time, that she has an enemy and not an ally. It's a bit more human than we usually see Leia (compare burnout making Luke become less human) but it's believable for me. A good way of putting it. I think that my understanding of why she was so desperate to give him the benefit of the doubt and why it hurt her so badly to admit her failure explained many of her decisions to me. From the first moment when the fact that she's the daughter of Darth Vader is hurled at her as an insult, the deep-rooted fear that that is her heritage, that she doesn't belong there, that she will fail or create an Empire, is always there under the surface. I think that that explanation stalls with me at times during her refusal to listen to military advice. It doesn't quite tip the balance into unbelievability because when pushed by Ackbar she does accept his counsel. But I think that her behaviour does suffer from a lack of counterpoint. Rather than simply being "understandable" it could have been elevated to a really nuanced and complex and difficult discussion of pacifism versus military prevention had we seen more of the "pacifist" stance beyond, "I don't want to admit he could be an enemy." Jedi Ben posted: Have to agree the burnout is quite obvious, but two things really prevent Leia from solving her problems and have probably led her to this mess and both are linked to her upbringing. She was raised as an aristocrat. Aristocracies tend to emphasise two rules: Never show weakness and always be the one in control. With those two rules so deeply embedded in her Leia's on the road to self-destruction. If we're talking about Alderaan then it's worth noting that Alderaan was also pacifistic. We know that Leia didn't uphold that ideal during the time of the Rebellion, but it could be relevant here if we're discussing her upbringing? Jedi Ben posted: She would have been used to the kind of games Spaar plays due to Fey'Lya, who was also adept at using past horrors as justification for his xenophobia and empire-building; yet she seems to not be so here. Another good point. Perhaps part of the problem is that - for the same reasons she was willing to let him dictate the terms of their meetings - she didn't really see him as a credible Empire Builder? She went into that meeting so convinced that what this person would ultimately want was membership in the Republic, the notion that he could attempt to do something like Fey'lya, or that he would have the slightest chance at being successful, wasn't something she was thinking about? The2ndQuest posted: And it's gorgeous. Thanks for the picture! Until a few weeks ago, I'd never actually seen a picture of a K-Wing. I remember the first time I read it desperately trying to imagine them and failing horribly as it never occured to me to turn the K so it looked like...two 7s back to back. Instead every configuration in my head looked horribly weird and unwieldy... -----signature----- legatus imperatoris britanniæ superior REMEMBER: DARTH MAUL: SHADOW HUNTER DISCUSSION STARTS IN NOVEMBER! Han's a girl, so I got a Golden Ewok.
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