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The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
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beccatoria
Title: 181st Imperial Discussion Group host
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
6/12 5:46pm
Subject:
RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
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Robimus posted:
Luke kills recklessly of anger in my estimation.
Yeah, that was something that left me a little creeped out to be honest. Earlier in the novel I was finding him cold and detached - a little unthinking and clearly suffering from some sort of crisis. But here? It was sort of creepy. I guess what I mean is, I know that Luke couldn't have known Akanah could defend herself and I believe he was acting in good faith to save her. But it was a clear authorial choice to have Luke dispatch them lethally when he could have presumably incapacitated them nonlethally, considering this is the guy who lifted Vader's castle out fo the rock and has been throwing around some pretty hefty Force abilities. To be honest, I was reminded of Betrayal when Luke and Mara are opting for incapacitating but nonlethal blows (cutting of limbs and the like - not nice, but not terminal), while Jacen goes for the quicker, more efficient killing strokes.
I was also reminded of Luke's comments in I, Jedi about fair warning: I don't even think he gave that here? There was no demand for surrender, just an attack, if I recall? I should probably go get the book and check that... 
Robimus posted:
This scene is I dare say sexist(what do you think Beccatoria?). Leia is not this person. She didn't shed a tear when Alderaan was destroyed, her father killed, yet now she's crying over a minor error in judgement. I don't think so,
Interesting observation and oddly not one I'd thought of. I can see that the argument could be made. Had that been Fey'lya, or Omas, or heck, Luke or Han in a similar situation, overloaded and having an kind of breakdown - would we have seen them cry? Is this a case of subtle sexism underpinning our behavioural expectations? It's true that Leia doesn't seem to be much of a crier, she tends to absolutely lose it entirely (a la Anakin's death) or/and then go extremely cold and shut down.
That said, I did actually sympathise with her quite a lot at that point - she was in a bad way stress-wise and I've certainly had moments where I've broken down in tears through sheer frustration/despair at fixing something/anger/being overwhelmed. And this was that times a thousand.
Ultimately, I guess I'd say that I didn't find it jarring, but I'm the sort of person who wishes that we would see Han or Luke or heck, Lando, break down in tears once or twice to even it out because I think it happens to everyone at some point or other. Which of course, doesn't negate the fact that there's an inequality in the portrayal of such things that breaks down along gender lines.
But the whole, "breaking down in tears," thing is a melodramatic trope that appeals to me regardless of character so I may not be the best person to judge such things? I'd be interested in the thoughts of others on this point?
Robimus posted:
I remembered only portions of this book, and probably would not have read it again if not for 181st Group disscussion. I'm glad I did as there is much more to it than I remembered.
I'm really glad that the thread provided the motivation for you to read it. Truth be told it did the same for me and I feel the same way - I remembered a rather wacky story that never paid off re: Luke's mother. Instead I got quite a fascinating tale of political intrigue.
Robimus posted:
This book seems to shout "The military is in charge of the Republic, sure the Politicians can run things as long as its in our interests, but then We "the military" will step in when the politico's are screwing things up because only "we" know how to runs things correctly." It certainly raised a few questions to me.
It's really interesting to me that you feel that way. I say that because I'm usually the poster-girl for civil liberties in the face of militarism, and maintaining a civilian control on the military. I can see that message of the novel - one in which diplomacy is doomed to fail and military action is inevitable - might be depressing on that front. But I didn't really see it as a case of a coup d'etat threat.
Perhaps it's only because I so firmly believe that the military must answer to a civilian government and that diplomacy is the first and best option to explore that I managed to inure myself to the overtones: I'm certainly not going to call your response invalid. But it seemed to me more a case of military expertise versus civilian expertise.
While I believe the military must ultimately remain under the command of a civilian government, the civilian government is not generally qualified to make decisions that require military expertise. It is just as dangerous to ignore the objective assessments of your military analysts as it is to hand over civic governance decisions to the head of the army. Leia chose to take the advice of military commanders with decades of experience - and they were right. It's also worth pointing out that Leia's insistance on trusting Nil Spaar despite strong circumstantial evidence that might have at least behooved her to be a tiny bit more skeptical of his words - has cost the lives of NR citizens already (the ship take-off incident).
Though note, I'm not putting the blame for all of that on Leia. Spaar was, from the beginning, going to pull a stunt like this. Leia was committed to a course that could not possibly work. Leia simply walked into his trap.
As did A'baht.
The military in this book is not infallible either. A'baht makes his decision out of the best of intentions, but he provides the opportunity for Spaar to initiate his plan.
I think that's why in general I like the plot of the novel. Leia's plan could not possibly have worked, but she was also right that military action would only cause a negative response. The problem being that Spaar was trying to provoke both the military and the government at the same time and both danced to his tune.
It's perhaps a commentary on Spaar's manipulative abilities, on Leia's political naivety in this instance, on the state of the arguing Senate and on the assumptions of the various military leaders (who, again, weren't wrong about the threat but - like Leia - literally did not have any possible way of succeeding in dealing with it), but I don't think it's a comment on Leia's willingness to listen to her military leaders or stand up to them, or their willingness to express to her exactly how strongly they believe in causes?
Robimus posted:
Good job beccatoria, your the hostess with the mostess 
Flatterer! 
But to return the compliment - thanks for your more detailed run through. I enjoyed reading it and it's provided quite a few more detailed points for discussion!
Excellence posted:
the only thing I didn't like was the long chapters.
Really? I liked that! I tend to use chapters as natural break-points, so the longer the chapter the quicker I tend to read through a book.
Excellence posted:
You know, guys, it's all too easy to write X-wings blazing TIEs to atoms, but it takes a good author to write pages of conversation dialogue about all sorts of real life issues as we saw in the trilogy.
I have to say, waiting for Spaar's final speech to the Senate, knowing it was going to be BAD, but having forgotten how, exactly, he was going to twist this, was probably the most tense I've been reading a book in a good long while. KMac did a terrific job of ratchetting up the tension by retelling the events from various perspectives, and creating such a tense climax based purely on a political speech, is no mean feat.
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sabarte
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
6/12 5:51pm
Subject:
RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
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I actually kinda think Nil Spaar's plan backfired on him. Had he not provoked/embarrassed the NR politically, I'm not sure they would have lifted a finger when he pulled the genocide. And if the NR wasn't watching as hard, there might have been no survivors, making the thing a fait accompli. As it was, he tried to bluster the NR away when laying low would probably have been more in his interests.
The NR really never paid attention to Koornacht before, after all.
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beccatoria
Title: 181st Imperial Discussion Group host
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
6/12 6:29pm
Subject:
RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
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sabarte posted:
I actually kinda think Nil Spaar's plan backfired on him. Had he not provoked/embarrassed the NR politically, I'm not sure they would have lifted a finger when he pulled the genocide. And if the NR wasn't watching as hard, there might have been no survivors, making the thing a fait accompli. As it was, he tried to bluster the NR away when laying low would probably have been more in his interests.
The NR really never paid attention to Koornacht before, after all.
Good point, but I'd argue that that's evidence of Spaar not thinking through the consequences of his plan rather than his plan not working at all.
Or rather, all three parties screw up. Leia falls for Spaar's tricks, the military fall for Spaar's trick, and Spaar himself underestimates the fallout of his tricks.
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Ris_jSarek
Registered:
Feb '05
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Date Posted:
6/12 6:47pm
Subject:
RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
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beccatoria posted:
Really? I liked that! I tend to use chapters as natural break-points, so the longer the chapter the quicker I tend to read through a book.
So do I, which is why I *don't* like long chapters. In a short chapter book, when I finish a chapter, I'm likely to say "the next one's short, I have time to read it," and repeat it several times before stopping. Or, I'll find a short bit of free time during the day, and read a chapter during it. In a long-chapter book, after finishing a chapter, I'm likely to say "hmm, next one's long, I'll wait until later." Later on, I'll have that short bit of free time, look at the chapter and say," hmm, not enough time right now, maybe later." And thus, the book doesn't get read nearly as fast.
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
6/13 9:11pm
Subject:
RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
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Robimus posted:
beccatoria posted:
Really? Can I ask how? I didn't imagine the Qella ship as a Basestar at all though I supppose they both have that "alien technology" thing going on with the irregular ship interfaces.
Not the appearance so much as the plot. The Basestar jumps with with important people aboard, just like the Quella ship did. I actually keep imagining a Mon Cal cruiser for overall appearance.
Also I don't believe they were actually going to go into the cluster? Didn't Leia specify they could search the sector but not the Koornacht cluster itself?
But the first thing A'baht did was send a Republic ship into Yevetha space. Sure the ends may justify the means, maybe. I'd submit that A'baht hoped the survey ship would provoke the Yevetha, that he was more concerned with being proved right than avoiding a confrontation, again going behind the back of the Cheif of State......Does the end always justify the means?
That's not at all in his character, though. A'baht is terrified by the fact that he's going into a potentially hostile area with no information at all. He feels like he's being ordered right into an ambush. It's no position a commander wants to have to put his men in. So he tries to get a little more information. Provoking the Yevetha . . . I can't see how you'd get that.
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Robimus
Registered:
Jul '07
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Date Posted:
6/13 9:58pm
Subject:
RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
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Havac posted:
That's not at all in his character, though. A'baht is terrified by the fact that he's going into a potentially hostile area with no information at all. He feels like he's being ordered right into an ambush. It's no position a commander wants to have to put his men in. So he tries to get a little more information. Provoking the Yevetha . . . I can't see how you'd get that.
The Yevetha told the New Republic not to send any ships across their borders, zero, none, zippo . Leia conveyed this to A'bsht when the mission was first purposed. What exactly would you call it when a New Republic ship is ordered into Yevetha space when its been forbidden by both the New Republic Chief of State and the Viceroy of the Yevetha? A'baht decided, urged by Drayson, to give the Yevetha a little push, a test, which played right into Yevetha hands. "Nil Spaar has been adamant about territorial integrity. He hasn't even agreed to emergency landing or pass through rights yet. Any intrusion by Republic Warships, no matter what the mission is completely unaceptable-to him and to me"-Leia
Did A'baht think the mapping vessel would be destroyed? Probably not, but I don't believe he was naive enough to think the Yevetha wouldn't detect the vessel. His intention was to one way or another provoke the Yevetha, and he knew his choice would cost him his command. He knew or at least suspected he was right, but his intention was clear.
Soldiers take orders, thats what they do. The fact that some feel he was right doesn't erase the breakdown in the chain of command. The Yevetha were looking for a reason to continue their political decimation of the New Republic, A'baht, Ackbar and Drayson handed it to them on a silver platter, and put the blame on Leia. Only A'baht had the guts to stand up and take responsibilty, Ackbar and Drayson are another matter entirely.
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
6/13 10:40pm
Subject:
RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
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That wasn't a test, though. A'baht sent in a ship to spy because he didn't have the information he felt he needed to do his job. I'm afraid I just don't understand your reading of the text. You seem determined to read the worst scenario into it.
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Jedi Ben
Registered:
Jul '99
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Date Posted:
6/14 1:41am
Subject:
RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
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Robimus posted:
[The Yevetha were looking for a reason to continue their political decimation of the New Republic,
The Yevetha were killing 1 in 10 NR politicians?
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Excellence
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
6/14 3:32am
Subject:
RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
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Becc, what's the hurry? It takes a long time to write and see your book published. Where's the fun in speeding a book to the back cover? You won't see the sequel for another year, at best, right?
The Reunion coauthors tricked that way. No chapters, just section breaks. I'm reading and reading and suddently realising I'm not going to see a chapter break. Sneaky of them; but then again, they always creatively style their "chapters", if you're familiar with them.
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beccatoria
Title: 181st Imperial Discussion Group host
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
6/14 5:19am
Subject:
RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
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Robimus - while the end result was provoking the Yevetha, I do not believe that was Abaht's intention. I think Hav is right and he was simply trying to get enough information to do his job: walking into an ambush would have helped no one. Ironically, the fact he was right - that he was walking into a very dangerous and hostile situation - was the same thing that caused the destruction of the gunship and the escalation of said situation.
Whether he should have known that the ship would have provoked a reaction, or how strong that reaction would be, is a separate issue. Personally I see a lot of passive-aggressive provocation on the part of Spaar and the Yevetha, maneuvering the NR military into a situation where it would be irresponsible to their citizens not to investigate, but then using that investigation to justify the Purge.
That said, whatever your reading of Abaht's judgment, I don't think that the text supports a reading where his express intention is provocation.
Ex - actually I have a postgrad Creative Writing degree. It's not something I'm currently pursuing career-wise so I don't want to paint myself as a writer, but it is something I enjoy doing and have some experience with, and I never use chapters. I always go for scene breaks. 
But I do like to get through a novel quickly. Otherwise I find I often disengage from the story and find it hard to pick up where I left off. I love stories, but I'm a 'right now!' person. Often I enjoy being able to look back at the whole thing and draw conclusions with the big picture in mind as much as I enjoy the journey through the story to the end?
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JEDIGUNSHIP
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
6/14 9:29am
Subject:
RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
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I read the trilogy a couple years ago, but I really don't remember anything about it.
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Robimus
Registered:
Jul '07
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Date Posted:
6/14 10:54am
Subject:
RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
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For Havac and Beccatoria:
That wasn't a test, though. A'baht sent in a ship to spy because he didn't have the information he felt he needed to do his job. I'm afraid I just don't understand your reading of the text. You seem determined to read the worst scenario into it.[/quote]
So you feel A'baht was naive? He doesn't come across that way to me. What your saying is that you think he felt the Yevetha would not react at all to having their territory breached? He must have considered all the obvious outcomes ahead of time. A'baht doesn't come across as a simpleton even if he's being manipulated by Drayson.
Yes, I'm looking beyond the text at what A'baht could have possibly been thinking. I don't often read a book without thinking about the characters actions and how they came to make the decisions they made. Your free to believe A'baht thought there would be no consequences to his actions, I just don't feel its that black and white.
Jedi Ben: I'm not sure what your talking about. No New Republic politicians were killed, but the Military was made to not trust the Chief of State, as was much of the Senate. Thats what I'm referring to. Many New Republic member states were made to distrust the workings on Coruscant. Just look at how Peramis was manipulated.
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
6/14 5:54pm
Subject:
RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
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I don't think he expected it to be detected, and I think that he didn't expect such a severe, badly-manipulated-by-Spaar fallout if it did get detected - just standard, non-evil-villainous-plot-advancing diplomatic bitching. They'd boycott NR peanut imports or something, like a sane nation. The NR had no way of knowing at that point just what utter fanatics the Yevetha were.
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beccatoria
Title: 181st Imperial Discussion Group host
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
6/17 9:08am
Subject:
RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
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Okay it's been a few days with no new talking points, so I thought I'd post a few observations I had while reading the book. To be honest, we've covered most of the major issues I noticed and great job everyone on engaging in a really interesting debate about Leia vs Ackbar and military versus diplomatic solutions! So this is more a case of...strange things I noticed and wonder if anyone else noticed too!
- Nil Spaar captures 9 SDs in the prologue - at the time I wondered if this was to one-up Daala and her contingent of seven (well, two-up). But then I realised that in the context of later battles such as the Vong war, I'd kind of lost a sense of scale and scope when it came to Star Destroyers. They didn't seem monolithic, capable of turning the tide of a battle merely by their presence. They seem like...standard warships and anything else is subpar. Is that just me? Or are we experiencing power-creep?
- I thought the issues Senator Peramis raised about being afraid that the fifth fleet might be used to keep member worlds in line was interesting in light of the Confederacy war...
- I admit to being ROYALLY CREEPED OUT by the scene where Luke rebuilt his father's house, and hid it from view and let time wash over him as if it were nothing, due in large part to the line, "all was as he had planned." I just kept hearing "all is proceding as I have foreseen." Was that just me? o.O
- Do you suppose this was the last time the Falcon actually got a refit?
- I thought the problem Luke presented to Han about the "background noise" of Force Sensitivity - about eventually needing to either control your environment or leave it, was very interesting. But I did immediately wonder why the most Jedilike choice would be the unmentioned third choice - achieve a state of zen so that you refuse to let your environment affect your inner state?
More later as conversation levels dictate!
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Jedi Ben
Registered:
Jul '99
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Date Posted:
6/17 9:42am
Subject:
RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
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Robimus,
Decimate in historical terms literally means to kill 1 in 10 people, it was a Roman punishment. In the Roman system you'd have Decurions and Centurions, the one commands 10 men, the other 100. Therefore I'm somewhat perplexed by what you mean by the term 'political decimation'.
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should we fall - we will know that we have lived."
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