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Author	Topic: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
Nobody145 Registered: Feb '07	Date Posted: 6/17 1:59pm Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm! - Date Edited: 6/17 2:08pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Nobody145
	I remember back when it seemed like an "Imperial Star Destroyer!" was one of the largest, most powerful warhips around, and that facing one either consisted of better tactics, or running away as fast as possible. By the same scale, a dozen Star Destroyers sounds like a very formidable fleet. When I first read this book, a couple dozen missing Star Destroyers, including several Super Star Destroyers, sounded like a very scary threat. Around when this book was written, the Bantam era, the 200 Katana Dreadnoughts were able to help swing the war back in the Empire's favor just a decade or so earlier. Although it can be argued that was possibly because the Empire and New Republic were still evenly matched. By this point, Leia says they can call on more ships than fought on both sides of the biggest battle of the Rebellion, which I'm hoping means Endor, but with retcons and all, its always hard to tell. Of course, the Rebellion wasn't about the Rebel Alliance taking the Empire head-on most of the time, since usually if the Rebels could come up with one Mon Cal cruier, the Empire could come up with several Star Destroyers. Anyway, back to my original point, while a fleet of several Star Destroyers wasn't invincible, if it was concentrated in one place, like if they attacked Coruscant, it was still very dangerous. The Lusankya, one Super Star Destroyer, was able to break though Coruscant's planetary shields on its way out. The Wraith Squadron X-wing books usually had maybe a dozen, or maybe two-dozen, Star Destroyer level capital ships, or the equivalent of that much firepower, involved in any battle. Now, one Star Destroyer is still formidable, but... there are less fleet battles, and when there are big battles, there are references to thousands of ships. During RotS, there are references to a thousand Venators defending Coruscant and fighting the Confederacy fleet, and probaly at least as many Confederacy ships, if not more, as some Confederacy fleets specialized in quantity over quality (like there was that Commerce Guild Destroyer or stuff like that). Even if those were Clone Wars ships, that's still several thousand capital ships engaged. The Fall of Courscant had several huge Fleet groups, and there were still even more Yuuzhan Vong vessels than that, with multiple refugee ships and damaged Yuuzhan Vong warships ramming themselves into the planetary shields to knock them out. By comparison, the Battle of Endor only had about, what, fifty Star Destroyers on the Imperial side, at least according to the Wookiee? Although that wasn't the galactic capital, but it was easily one of the most pivotal battles in galactic history. And I thought Daala originally had four Star Destroyers? Though nowadays, four Star Destroyers seems like nothing, unless you count that as just a very powerful pirate group. In the last book discussed, I, Jedi, a lone Star Destroyer was an annoying pirate/rogue warlord, although Tavira had Force-sensitives helping her too. Or maybe we're all just too... numb to all the galactic war these days, with several huge Battles of Coruscant in the last couple of years, counting the RotS one. Then again, a sector maybe has a dozen or so Star Destroyers patrolling (at least during the Empire era), but when we're talking about galactic wars, they shift ships around a lot, so considering how many sectors there are in the galaxy, thousands of Star Destroyers in existence is a low-end estimate probably. The Legacy comics fortunately kind of avoid this trend, as while the Battle of Caamas, which spelled the end of the GA, probably had hundreds of big capital ships, it isn't shown too much in focus. The most recent Battle of Mon Calamari/Dac though only had seven, or eight or something like that, Pellaeon Star Destroyers, with quite a few smaller ships, frigates and such, also involved. I liked that the Falcon had a tune-up, and I believe they mentioned they added auto-targetting to the turrets, or something like that? It was nice to hear the Falcon getting updated (at least I think its implied), since while the Falcon was the "fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy," ships gets faster, shields get stronger, weapons pack bigger punch, so that while by the Yuuzhan Vong War and LotF, they are trotting out several series of XJ X-wings out, the Falcon is still going and going and going and apparently still holding its own. The Falcon is always repaired, even after being nearly ripped to shreds, and is of course repainted to black after Han loses it when Chewie dies, but I honestly can't remember the Falcon ever getting this kind of comprehensive check-up since. Of course, Han just might not trust government (even if his wife is the head of that government) mechanics to do the job either and does everything himself, with Chewie's help of course. Or maybe technology just hasn't really advanced that much, as Imperial and Imperial-II Star Destroyers are still very common and still being built. -----signature----- Don't mind me, I'm nobody important.
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beccatoria Title: 181st Imperial Discussion Group host Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 6/19 2:09pm Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	Nobody145 posted: And I thought Daala originally had four Star Destroyers? Though nowadays, four Star Destroyers seems like nothing, unless you count that as just a very powerful pirate group. In the last book discussed, I, Jedi, a lone Star Destroyer was an annoying pirate/rogue warlord, although Tavira had Force-sensitives helping her too. Or maybe we're all just too... numb to all the galactic war these days, with several huge Battles of Coruscant in the last couple of years, counting the RotS one. Then again, a sector maybe has a dozen or so Star Destroyers patrolling (at least during the Empire era), but when we're talking about galactic wars, they shift ships around a lot, so considering how many sectors there are in the galaxy, thousands of Star Destroyers in existence is a low-end estimate probably. You may be right about Daala - I confess I don't really remember. I thought it was seven but I wouldn't want to bet on it. Either way you make a great point about Tavira. On the one had, all she was doing was pirating, and not the wealthier worlds - her main bonus was her ability to evade her would-be captors. But there is something I miss about such monolithic, terrifying ships. I love the Lusankya's 'death' scene in the NJO. Because...yeah, it was so beautifully written, but at the same time, looking back, that whole enormous ship ends up being part of the "superior tactics" they employ to outfight a superior force. Ultimately, even the Lusankya is outclassed. Though like I said - I kind of enjoy that for its bittersweet overtones. I do know that I never got the sense that the Anakin Solo was anything other than a fairly average warship. I never really got a sense of scope but that could be the fact I've always had difficulty with ships and various sizes and scales. Nobody145 posted: I liked that the Falcon had a tune-up, and I believe they mentioned they added auto-targetting to the turrets, or something like that? It was nice to hear the Falcon getting updated (at least I think its implied), since while the Falcon was the "fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy," ships gets faster, shields get stronger, weapons pack bigger punch, so that while by the Yuuzhan Vong War and LotF, they are trotting out several series of XJ X-wings out, the Falcon is still going and going and going and apparently still holding its own. The Falcon is always repaired, even after being nearly ripped to shreds, and is of course repainted to black after Han loses it when Chewie dies, but I honestly can't remember the Falcon ever getting this kind of comprehensive check-up since. Of course, Han just might not trust government (even if his wife is the head of that government) mechanics to do the job either and does everything himself, with Chewie's help of course. Or maybe technology just hasn't really advanced that much, as Imperial and Imperial-II Star Destroyers are still very common and still being built. I loved that it got a check-up! Actually I think my favourite part was when Han complains about all the extra weight he'll be carting around and the mechanic informs him that will all the junk they removed she's actually lighter now! Regarding technology, I think that while there's always something slightly better and slightly more cutting edge, the advancement of technology doesn't advance at anything like our pace. I mean, they've been more or less at a technological impasse for four millennia. Sure, every now and again you get a crazy technogizmo like the Death Star, but that strikes me more like a sort of nuclear issue in the modern world. We have the knowhow but we are careful about actually building it because of the implications. I imagine the main reason the Falcon needed upgrades would have been because her parts were all so old they were falling apart... -----signature----- legatus imperatoris britanniæ superior REMEMBER: CLOAK OF DECEPTION DISCUSSION STARTS IN SEPTEMBER! Han's a girl, so I got a Golden Ewok.
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Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 6/19 2:52pm Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	I remember a throwaway line in the Shield of Lies, I think. The one Superstar the Reps had they scrapped, in keeping with their "lots and lots of smaller ships" vs fewer big ones doctrine. That was before the later X-wings, of course. Misinformation to the ministry, apparently. -----signature----- My utilisation of complex locution to ask what's more pathetic, fans who worship their movie actors, or the actors who couldn't give a damn, is more a reflection of my own superincumbent mental actuity than any circumscribed lexicon. Don't you agree?
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 6/19 2:57pm Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	On Star Destroyers, I'm kind of amazed no one in SW ever did a Shrek-style line: "A Super Star Destroyer?" "Vader?" "Vader." "Do you think he's compensating for something?" -----signature----- Howe: Why? Castle: So they can't walk away. So they can't profit from the pain they've caused..... Howe: And no second chances... Castle: I don't do redemption.
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EagleEye Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 6/19 7:23pm Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	I agree with the earlier assessment that the space battles have lost their scope. I think that it has been a really long time since we really felt the scale of the battle scenes. All of the X Wing books accomplished this pretty well, with the exception of the Bacta War where they just annihilated the Lusankya. But I definitely agree that it has become pitched battle after pitched battle with a gazillion ships on either side. I think Mike Stackpole should start writing again to give some detail to the new classes of ships. I also think he was great at establishing just how hard it was to battle these capital ships. Speaking of authors that they brought back, I think they should bring back Mr Michael P Kube-McDowell-super long name because he really really understood the political goings-on that come about during any military crisis. His insights would have been very cool during Fey'lya's reign of the Yuuzhan Vong war.
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Sinrebirth Title: Hierarch and Chancellor of EUCity Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 6/22 11:29am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	Okedokes. I've been meaning to post here, and because I plugged this to protect myself, I'm going to comment here. When I first read this book, I actually did very different to everyone else - I skimmed past Lando's story. Horrifying, I know. But after he started politicking with Papekkett (sp), I lost interest. Lobot was fun, to a degree, and his meeting with Hiram, definitely. But otherwise I lost interest. I focused on Leia's storyline and found the concept of numbered fleets curious. Remember, I'm only 21, so my military history didn't go beyond 'Nazis = Bad' for a spell at the age I read this first. The start, with the Yevetha stealing the Imperial fleet, set the scene of the Yevetha's brutality immediately, and the Bessimir combat dropped us in at the deep end . I most enjoyed the fact that Leia was getting worn out. Bennie and Ackbar made great foils to her character, and although I was surprised to see Plat added so late in the story. I'll admit I enjoyed the numerous character PoVs, something which I notice upon re-reading that most of our current SW authros don't indulge in - Denning and Traviss use very few characters. Allston is better, but he's not penciled in to do anymore SW as far as we know. I write in my free time, and end up more at the Denning and Traviss end of the spectrum more often than not, but it's interesting to see. Does anyone think that the book would have been better if we didn't already know Spaar had the Black Fleet? Luke's story touched me, even though I was very young. When I re-read it, my exasperation at Luke mirrored Han's, so I sympathised with Luke when it finally made sense. Why didn't Yoda and Obi-Wan team up and go after the Emperor, after all? It stamps logic on an emotive discussion. Akanah was a surprise, and her introduction made me curious. Nowadays, I end up skimming this bit, no matter how hard I try. The moment Akanah joins the plot I feel disconnected from Luke's story. Though I would love to fantasize that Padme survived her death and was hidden away by Bail - unbeknown to Yoda and Obi - it's a moot point. This time, I read the Lando story properly, and found the Qella plotline intriguing more than anything. I actually can't remember how it ends. So, I'll be looking forward to reading the rest of the story, I hope. It's amazing how much I miss Threepio and Artoo as key characters in a story. Allston hasn't used them very well in LotF - in the Enemy Lines Duology the pair were used exceptionally well. -----signature----- Sey's Sinre The Missing Chapters of LotF: Invincible http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=28933751&brd=10477&replies=10 Chapter 2.5 is up now! Featuring Wedge, Dician, Niathal, Daala, Valin and Syal!
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Robimus Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 6/22 2:45pm Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	Sinrebirth posted: Does anyone think that the book would have been better if we didn't already know Spaar had the Black Fleet? Yes and no. Giving away that Spaar had the fleet was the way to go I think, thus creating the villian in the eyes of the readers. That said when I re-read this I had a similar reaction to your question and really attemped to disect what Leia, Ackbar and company must have been thinking. I do think the Astrological Ship getting blown to smithereens was anti climatic because we already knew how bad the Yevetha were. That said the New Republic would have had no way to know that going forward, and to me almost assumed bad faith on the Yevetha without knowledge to back up their fears. They don't want to join us so they must be against us, is the feeling I got from the New Republic -----signature----- I am forever seeking the damutek of Hooley Krekk Oh, woe! Oh, misery! Oh, unhappiness. Hooley Krekk where are you?
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Daniel-K Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 6/22 5:46pm Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	Nobody145 posted: I remember back when it seemed like an "Imperial Star Destroyer!" was one of the largest, most powerful warhips around, and that facing one either consisted of better tactics, or running away as fast as possible. I remember the first 30 minutes of ANH as well. The movies were always pretty good about portraying the scale you decry. ROTS had 5000 ships duking it out per the BTS comments of the animators, and that was a fast raid. ANH and Endor were smaller battles only if you discount the fact that the Death Stars are each worth millions of star destroyers. TPM opens with dozens of ships and the description means that there are thousands there. Ground combat may be completely out of whack, but we've always been told that the starfleet was massive in numbers and that Imperial star destroyers were nothing special. It was the EU that went with the Star destroyers are uber bit. I always liked the BFC because it seems like KMAC is the only novel author who treated the galaxy like a galaxy. The scale and scope, the behavior of the characters, the mysteries from the past, the physics of space combat, etc. He looked at the situation, and while I don't agree with everything he did, I think he did it better then most. Instead of a colossal threat that could wipe out the NR and doom the galaxy, it deals with the happenings in a small cluster in a single sector. The bad guys aren't bad because they want to dominate the galaxy, they are bad because they committed genocide. They aren't evil because they get of on being evil, they are bad guys because they are a species that instead of maturing to make it through the civilization keyhole, they got their hands on highly advanced technology and then proceed to act out in a game theory/hyper survivalist manner. The conflict isn't resolved by the heroic actions of a scrappy band of heroes, it is by the hard work and sacrifice of a large number of ordinary soldiers and spacers. The political factions act exactly how you would expect politicians to act - you had a lot of valid perspective on how to handle the situation, and the opposition wasn't due to mustache twirling but honest disagreement. We got to see how vast and different the galaxy was, with Lando going off and dealing with the relic of a turnover civilization and a discussion of all kinds of similar weird artifacts. Luke's story provided a glimpse in to the average schmuck's life, provided some interesting character development (that was promptly dropped afterwards) and neutralized him for most of the series - but when he did come back it showed the Jedi as a major force multiplier, which is exactly what one would expect from someone with that kind of power. The physics of combat were well thought out, with telescopes, the C-barrier, missiles, gravity, Kepler's laws etc all coming into play. -----signature----- The real light of the world is Sagan's candle in the dark http://achewood.com/ - Greatest comic ever
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Nobody145 Registered: Feb '07	Date Posted: 6/22 6:17pm Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm! - Date Edited: 6/22 6:20pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Nobody145
	The RotS opening was also in the skies of the galactic capital, and they were on a raid to kidnap the official ruler of the galaxy, so bringing a lot of ships seems like a good idea, which is probably why they had literally thousands of ships involved. Anyway, RotS was only made somewhat more recently, whereas Endor only had a couple dozen Star Destroyers, though RotJ was made a few decades ago. And while the EU might've portrayed the Star Destroyer image accurately or inaccurately, it also probably had to do with how the Rebels were usually flying around either in the Millenium Falcon or something on that level, like a few snubfighters, so a single Star Destroyer was usually way out of their league. And counting the Death Stars, sure that's sorta like having millions of Star Destroyers there, but Death Stars are battlestations, not ships, and Death Stars are on a completely different scale than a ship, even Super Star Destroyers don't come close. Heck, Death Stars are more like miniature planets than ships, so while they are an impressive sign of the Empire's resources, if you count them as ships, might as well count planets too, except most planets can't travel through hyperspace. And also, while the RotS opening had over a thousand Venator Star Destroyers and an equivalent amount of Confederacy naval ships there duking it out, that was at the height of the Clone Wars, when several giant military-industrial complexes had been producing warships for years. And also, after that initial battle, we never saw another naval battle of that scale during the movie, and even at Geonosis there weren't that many warships were they? Though that was only the beginning of the Clone Wars and the Galactic Civil War was more a guerilla type war for the most part, with the occasional rare head-on confrontation. Although please don't quote me on the Geonosis bit, I'm not too sure about that, as mainly I remember the movie, and by EU standards, the movies are always very... incomplete. Its kind of funny how many people participated in the Battle of Naboo, according to the EU, and they were all just a few meters to the left or the right of the wonderful Gungan combat! The Empire built lots of Star Destroyers to keep rowdy populations under control, but even it had some limits. Its not like an Imperial Star Destroyer is still easy to take on, unless one is in a Super Star Destroyer or an equivalent, or just really outnumber it, but its just that recently, one Star Destroyer is at best a background for the characters, and isn't really a significant warship on its own. The GA had fleets, but those fleets only had... what, a couple dozen large capital ships? I don't remember exactly, but there was a quote in Inferno with the Fifth Fleet having a couple dozen Star Destroyers and Star Cruisers assembled or something like that, not like the thousands of Star Destroyers, Cruisers and the Yuuzhan Vong analog equivalents that fought during the Fall of Coruscant. Anyway, what I'm saying is that on a galactic scale, of course one ship isn't that significant, but to a planet, an Imperial Star Destroyer is still very scary, given that it can just pound the surface of a planet flat on command. -----signature----- Don't mind me, I'm nobody important.
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Daniel-K Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 6/22 8:11pm Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	This probably needs to move to Fleet junkies, so perhaps either a mod should shift out posts or whateeer response you choose to make should be in that thread. Nobody145 posted: The RotS opening was also in the skies of the galactic capital, and they were on a raid to kidnap the official ruler of the galaxy, so bringing a lot of ships seems like a good idea, which is probably why they had literally thousands of ships involved. You don't throw a main battle fleet at a hit and run raid. Nobody145 posted: Anyway, RotS was only made somewhat more recently, whereas Endor only had a couple dozen Star Destroyers, though RotJ was made a few decades ago. And while the EU might've portrayed the Star Destroyer image accurately or inaccurately, it also probably had to do with how the Rebels were usually flying around either in the Millenium Falcon or something on that level, like a few snubfighters, so a single Star Destroyer was usually way out of their league. Agreed, but I don't see how that meshes with your complaints of large fleet battles now. Nobody145 posted: And counting the Death Stars, sure that's sorta like having millions of Star Destroyers there, but Death Stars are battlestations, not ships, and Death Stars are on a completely different scale than a ship, even Super Star Destroyers don't come close. Heck, Death Stars are more like miniature planets than ships, so while they are an impressive sign of the Empire's resources, if you count them as ships, might as well count planets too, except most planets can't travel through hyperspace. That's a rather strong argument to the absurd. The Death Stars are mobile platforms meant to prosecute war against the enemy. Their presence and power negates the need for millions of star destroyers, hence part of their construction (operation as a WMD against heavily defended targets of the Great Powers being the other). Nobody145 posted: And also, while the RotS opening had over a thousand Venator Star Destroyers and an equivalent amount of Confederacy naval ships there duking it out, that was at the height of the Clone Wars, when several giant military-industrial complexes had been producing warships for years. And also, after that initial battle, we never saw another naval battle of that scale during the movie, and even at Geonosis there weren't that many warships were they? The novel speak of how the space fleets were slugging it out. Nobody145 posted: Though that was only the beginning of the Clone Wars and the Galactic Civil War was more a guerilla type war for the most part, with the occasional rare head-on confrontation. Although please don't quote me on the Geonosis bit, I'm not too sure about that, as mainly I remember the movie, and by EU standards, the movies are always very... incomplete. Its kind of funny how many people participated in the Battle of Naboo, according to the EU, and they were all just a few meters to the left or the right of the wonderful Gungan combat! The Empire built lots of Star Destroyers to keep rowdy populations under control, but even it had some limits. I don't disagree with that. But the scale of the resources available to them, the extent of the territory to patrol, and the power their opponent can field necessitate fleets commiserate with what the films indicate, rather then the idea that an Imperial star destroyer is an ubership. Nobody145 posted: Its not like an Imperial Star Destroyer is still easy to take on, unless one is in a Super Star Destroyer or an equivalent, or just really outnumber it, but its just that recently, one Star Destroyer is at best a background for the characters, and isn't really a significant warship on its own. No, as I pointed out as far back as ANH we knew they weren't the best, Han mentions outflying the "big corellian cruisers", and it showcased the Death Star, worth millions of ships. The early EU had all kinds of star battlecruisers and battleships, ranging from Wermis' ship to the ship Palpatine granted Rokur Gepta (which itself was a flagship for a fleet exceeding 550 ships). The recent trend is simply finally acknowledging it. Nobody145 posted: The GA had fleets, but those fleets only had... what, a couple dozen large capital ships? I don't remember exactly, but there was a quote in Inferno with the Fifth Fleet having a couple dozen Star Destroyers and Star Cruisers assembled or something like that, not like the thousands of Star Destroyers, Cruisers and the Yuuzhan Vong analog equivalents that fought during the Fall of Coruscant. Of course, the DNT had a GA fleet able to blockade an entire nebula, so it is a bit inconsistent. Nobody145 posted: Anyway, what I'm saying is that on a galactic scale, of course one ship isn't that significant, but to a planet, an Imperial Star Destroyer is still very scary, given that it can just pound the surface of a planet flat on command. well yes. -----signature----- The real light of the world is Sagan's candle in the dark http://achewood.com/ - Greatest comic ever
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Nobody145 Registered: Feb '07	Date Posted: 6/22 8:38pm Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	On the part where I'm comparing RotJ Endor and RotS Coruscant, what I just meant is that there seems to be a, how to put it, a... shifting in how fleet battles are portrayed in the EU and in the films. In the book being discussed right now, a couple dozen Star Destroyers is a major fleet, a potentially huge unaccounted for threat. While a fleet like that can't take over the galaxy, it could do a lot of damage if it shows up unexpectedly in the wrong place at the wrong time. When this book was first published, the biggest onscreen fleet battle people had seen was Endor, so a couple dozen Star Destroyers seem like a huge fleet, especially one with a Super Star Destroyer or two. The Katana Fleet, 200 Dreadnoughts, was a legendary find. Now, after RotS, a thousand capital ships is nothing. NJO had fleets of that size aseembled on several occasions, with equal or greater Yuuzhan Vong numbers attacking. You're right, this probably falls more into Fleet Junkies than the topic, so I'll try not to go on too much of a tangent. Yeah, I'm grasping at some straws here, so... I guess my original point/arguement goes back to Beccatoria's comment on loss of scale, or rather how we seem to be losing our original persepctive. When the BFC first came out, the Black Fleet was a sizable fleet. Now, when you consider the New Republic was able to assemble thousands of Star Destroyers and Star Cruisers and who knows what else a few years later, the Black Fleet seems small. But yeah, you're also right in that in a galaxy the size of Star Wars, where Imperial class Star Destroyers are common, the Imperial-class alone isn't that impressive. But then again, maybe that goes more into how huge a gap there is between the Imperial-class and the Super-class, but that's probably better meant for another thread. What was I saying again anyway? Oh forget, I think I forgot too, so never mind, sorry for the minor rant/tangent, it probably just ties into my discontent with some of the more recent EU works. -----signature----- Don't mind me, I'm nobody important.
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Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 6/23 2:53am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	Legendary indeed. With only 2000 personnel aship and Hutt flabs of automated machinery, it's a steal. -----signature----- My utilisation of complex locution to ask what's more pathetic, fans who worship their movie actors, or the actors who couldn't give a damn, is more a reflection of my own superincumbent mental actuity than any circumscribed lexicon. Don't you agree?
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 6/23 4:10am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm! - Date Edited: 6/23 4:48am (1 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
	Hey, Having finished re-reading the Black Fleet Crisis, it's interesting to realize how utterly different the tone changes in light of the Bush Presidency and the War on Terror. Nil Spaar was made in an era where the next phase of war was going to be against dictatorships performing genocide (Bosnia) and where isolating governments was seen as a perfectly legitimate response to their activities (see driving Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait rather than out of power). Oddly, the book becomes BETTER in light of the events of recent years or perhaps a better term is more relevant. When I was a wee Star Wars Kid, I wasn't really impressed with Nil Spar or the Yevetha. Bluntly, they came off as a bunch of evil aliens who seemed subpar villains compared to the Ssiruuk or similiar characters because they were less threatening and, to not put too fine a point on it, less cool. They used stolen Imperial technology and didn't even have any awesome weird weapons. What works wonderfully is the perhaps unintentionally written tragic confusion of Nil Spaar. Nil Spaar is perfectly confident that he can predict the moves and ideas of the human beings outside his cluster. He effectively swaggers onto Coruscant and behaves in a rude, self-indulgent, and self-gratitfying manner because he believes that he has a full grasp of the human beings outside the Cluster. He's dealt with the intimidated and crushed beings in his slave employ and he's dealt with the ones that enslaved him. It's interesting to speculate if he ever realized how utterly and completely he misjudged them on every single level. You've got to wonder if Nil Spaar ever realized that he'd actually caused an apathetic group to wage a war that would destroy his entire culture. Ironically, years down the line, it would lead to the genocide of the Yevetha because decades later he'd STILL have left people in the neighboring planets wanting to wipe him and his race out. The Yevetha, by the Force Heretic trilogy meet their total destruction thanks to the actions of Nil Spaar and his arrogance regarding human interaction. Ironically, I don't blame Nil Spaar for making this mistake either because Leia's diplomacy is ridiculously **** poor. In real life, and I unfortunately know this from meeting way too many real diplomats thanks to my Aunt's odd friendship with the Bushes, diplomats are not nearly as diplomatic as they might appear. From what I've observed, they're equal parts supposed to reinforce the stick as much as they are the hand of friendship. Leia effectively attempts to treat Nil Spaar if he just walked off the boat from Alderaan. The two of them talk in their own language and expect the other to understand their values are completely different. I disliked General Cracken's Threat Dossier write-up of the Yevetha as a race of pure evil. You don't need to be pure evil to value the collective and ethnic heritage over the values of the individual and foreigners. Nil Spaar comes to Leia as a product of what's little different than the Cardassian occupation of Bajor in Babylon 5 (or British Imperialism). He's from a world where life is cheap and assumes that because Leia is a European/Imperial that she'll respect only force. From where Spaar is coming from, it's IRRATIONAL to want to wipe out his people from the universe for what amounts to NO REASON. The concept that what he thinks is them ignoring the monstrous suffering of his people under the Empire to go rescue some other complete strangers by grinding his people into dust is an aspect of politics that unfortunately exists in the real world. Plenty of Third World Nations have found themselves suddenly enemies of the First World with little seeming rhyme or reason given the activities of some others that are maintained ties with. It's not even the case of having something you want as plenty of natural resource producing ones have been cast down along with value-less ones. If Nil Spaar had survived, you'd have to imagine him trying to figure out what the Hell they were trying to pull if they left his world unconquered after blowing away all their ships. A moral justification would make no sense to him given he'd probably be able to point to goodness knows how many worlds still under Imperial rule. It's the fundamental irrationality of politics. I am rather fond of Nil Spaar's tasteless description of what the Empire did to his people. In these days of Imperial apologism, the Empire's description of activities seems to be amongst its most absolute disgusting of atrocities waged on the peoples of the galaxy. Except, the irony is that its really not all that different from the way the Soviet Union behaved in Afghanistan and many other conquering forces have in their own countries. But there's also a wonderful irony that he's trying to lecture LEIA on this. Nil Spaar has clearly encountered enough humans that he's assuming he knows them. He doesn't get Leia has suffered just the same as he is. So his assumption is she's effectively just a fool for sympathizing with him is going to kick him in the face. You've got to admire the Yevetha's swagger as well. They're utterly lacking a sense of scale here and don't comprehend the rest of the galaxy is ready to go to war. While everyone is noticing that Princess Leia gave a direct order not to violate their airspace, the simple fact is that the President of the United States' authority in this matter is theoretically absolute. Realistically, since George Washington, we've had commanders taking it upon themselves to exceed their authority. It's why there's that famous order "I'll accept full responsibility" which allows a Submarine Commander to effectively override a superior's order in so many movies. One final note, I think Leia's biggest problem with Spaar is that she's trying to reconcile her self-image of a bunch of people trying to rebuild in the wake of the Empire that she's having difficulty understanding they're horrible people. Leia has grown up with the image of Rebels=Good Guys and Imperials=Bad that she's having difficulty adjusting to Imperials=Bad and Rebels=Bad. In many ways, Spaar's people are a return to the Confederacy of Old (that didn't exist at the time of the book). They're a bunch of isolationist terrorists that are NOT LIKE UStm. I think, at least in retcon, Leia might be having trouble dealing with what amonts to a piece of Palpatine Propaganda brought to life. They're the twisted reflection of the Rebellion. A group of dangerous evil aliens out to hurt humans and steal their stuff just like Palpatine said they were. It complicates the issue but she's so used to dismissing the idea that people are misunderstood/persecuted that she can't shift gears that she should look down on them. There is some hints of Chamberlain with the Yevetha but mostly in terms of the fact that Leia is suffering from burn out (as stated earlier) with Thrawn and the Emperor's return. She wants no more war and believes that, at the start, the Republic is in the mood to be generous. Mon Mothma was the same with Ambassador Furgan. -----signature----- Check out Halt Evil Doer!: The RPG setting for Super Heroes! Halt Evil Doer PDF: http://tinyurl.com/555axt
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beccatoria Title: 181st Imperial Discussion Group host Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 6/23 8:37am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	Yay! People! Also I just wrote out a whole big post and then my computer crashed. ::headdesk:: So, going from memory, I will now try to recreate it... Sinrebirth posted: Does anyone think that the book would have been better if we didn't already know Spaar had the Black Fleet? I think that's a really interesting question. I'm tempted to say yes simply because it would have forced us to perhaps consider Leia's points more seriously, wondering whether the risks were worth it or the evidence was conclusive. Perhaps the idea of our heroine being wrong would have been more resonant if we hadn't known she was wrong from the beginning. However, on balance, I think it's better as it is for two reasons: 1) The laws of fiction. Why spend so much time foreshadowing the Black Fleet and have Nil Spaar as the only unknown and potentially hostile element if he isn't being set up as the guy who has them? Short of a huge twist-reveal, which we know the novel isn't building to, Nil Spaar would already be a prime suspect to all readers. To really experience Leia's reasoning we'd need to actually be in a 'realworld' situation where coincidences like this exist. 2) I really love the way the Yevetha are introduced in such a sympathetic position (as rebelling slaves) but are still supercreepy. I'd hate to lose that! Also, just for the record, I had the same reaction as you to the BFC books originally. I breezed past Lando with little interest (to the point I can no longer remember the conclusion to his plot either!) and was immediately hooked by Luke's plot. But revisiting them, like you, I'm finding myself far more interested in Lando and unable really to emotionally connect with Luke's journey once Akanah arrives because I already know where it's headed. Daniel-K posted: The physics of combat were well thought out, with telescopes, the C-barrier, missiles, gravity, Kepler's laws etc all coming into play. You know, normally I'm leery of introducing too many hard science fiction elements into a space fantasy like Star Wars, but I really enjoyed the way KMac uses realistic details. Not just in space combat but also by dropping geological details from members of survey teams or giving more information on the mechanics of the Senate. It added a sense of realism, I guess, that I didn't realise I'd relish. Nobody145 posted: I don't remember exactly, but there was a quote in Inferno with the Fifth Fleet having a couple dozen Star Destroyers and Star Cruisers assembled or something like that, not like the thousands of Star Destroyers, Cruisers and the Yuuzhan Vong analog equivalents that fought during the Fall of Coruscant. ::displays tragic lack of Fleet Junkie Education:: If there are only a couple of dozen Star Destroyers and Star Cruisers in the Fifth Fleet, then how did the numbers reach thousands for the Fall of Coruscant? Even with all the Fleets, if the Fifth Fleet is even vaguely representational, we'd be talking around a hundred... HALP! Charlemagne19 posted: Having finished re-reading the Black Fleet Crisis, it's interesting to realize how utterly different the tone changes in light of the Bush Presidency and the War on Terror. Nil Spaar was made in an era where the next phase of war was going to be against dictatorships performing genocide (Bosnia) and where isolating governments was seen as a perfectly legitimate response to their activities (see driving Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait rather than out of power). There was some really interesting discussion about the way the politics of the real world is influencing the EU recently, and this is a really relevant point to bring up. In many ways I think that real world influenced political stories are easier to appreciate outside their time than during it. During it, everyone has an opinion already, it's on everyone's mind. It's impossible to come to it fresh and simply look at what the story is telling you. Then again, I do also have to wonder, am I experiencing a greater appreciation for the political plotline now because ten years later I have new and interesting contexts to apply to it, or simply because I've changed? Because like you, when I was a Star Wars Kid reading these novels for the first time, I was by no means politically ignorant, but I was more politically ignorant and I looked for different things from these novels. To be honest, I understand the Bosnian conflict much better now than I did during the conflict itself, so I'm not sure whether I can make an objective judgement about the cause of my changing opinions? Charlemagne19 posted: If Nil Spaar had survived, you'd have to imagine him trying to figure out what the Hell they were trying to pull if they left his world unconquered after blowing away all their ships. A moral justification would make no sense to him given he'd probably be able to point to goodness knows how many worlds still under Imperial rule. Indeed - moral relativism, or rather, the places the NR draws its moral lines might well seem strange to someone with such an a) absolutist and b) alien moral structure. Charlemagne19 posted: I am rather fond of Nil Spaar's tasteless description of what the Empire did to his people. In these days of Imperial apologism, the Empire's description of activities seems to be amongst its most absolute disgusting of atrocities waged on the peoples of the galaxy. Except, the irony is that its really not all that different from the way the Soviet Union behaved in Afghanistan and many other conquering forces have in their own countries. But there's also a wonderful irony that he's trying to lecture LEIA on this. Nil Spaar has clearly encountered enough humans that he's assuming he knows them. He doesn't get Leia has suffered just the same as he is. So his assumption is she's effectively just a fool for sympathizing with him is going to kick him in the face. Actually I liked that too! I mean, I'm actually also a fan of the Zahnpire and the Felpire. I like seeing the Empire as a brutal and sometimes cruel, but efficient and not necessarily evil institution. But under Palpatine, it was vile. Even if most of the humans didn't notice. So yeah, I actually even have that in my notes on the novel - that it's strangely reassuring to return to a point in the timeline when the Empire meant attrocities rather than Luke Skywalker being unable to explain to his son why it was bad. (Tangent: I always wondered why he didn't ask Ben when he developed such a humanocentric view of the universe and suggest he go train with Lowie for a while). And also, yeah, it was...kind of tragic, actually, to see Nil Spaar telling all of this to Leia, unable to really understand on any emotional level, because he cannot shift his paradigm to allow empathy with any outsider, that she suffered just as greatly at the hands of the Empire as he did. Charlemagne19 posted: Leia has grown up with the image of Rebels=Good Guys and Imperials=Bad that she's having difficulty adjusting to Imperials=Bad and Rebels=Bad. Yes! I've already commented on how much I liked the introduction because you wanted to sympathise with these rebelling slaves but they're so scary and I thought that was a nice trick, but for some reason it never occured to me to parse it into Leia's frame of reference. Leia who only knows about their terrible struggle against oppression, not about the ways they won it and how those might be a sign as to their ability to "play well with others" in the NR. -----signature----- legatus imperatoris britanniæ superior REMEMBER: CLOAK OF DECEPTION DISCUSSION STARTS IN SEPTEMBER! Han's a girl, so I got a Golden Ewok.
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DaggerSword Registered: Mar '08	Date Posted: 6/23 1:38pm Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	beccatoria posted: If there are only a couple of dozen Star Destroyers and Star Cruisers in the Fifth Fleet, then how did the numbers reach thousands for the Fall of Coruscant? Even with all the Fleets, if the Fifth Fleet is even vaguely representational, we'd be talking around a hundred... HALP! I thought it's agreed upon that these fleets are merely the core force of the entire navy and member systems provide their own fleets and/or donations? In other worlds, like the Old Republic prior to the Clone Wars.
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