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Author	Topic: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
J_K_DART Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 6/25 11:03am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	Not to mention Windu's 'Crimes Against Civilisation' in Shatterpoint. -----signature----- "Victory without risk is like a pizza without pepperoni." "I like my pizzas without pepperoni." "Sir master of the long post" - Excellence
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Robimus Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 6/25 4:32pm Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	The nice idea behind Star Wars though is that an entity exists to combat these crimes against humanity/sentience. We know who the good guys are and that eventually an effort will be made to set things right. In the real world more foggy this is......following world war two the word genocide was given prominence. If the word "genocide" is used many nations by law are required to act. So then we start hearing about the "genocide like acts" that occurred in Rwanda and Darfur, so as not to infer the "legal" term that the nations promised to act upon. Anyway I'm not really all that sure where I'm headed with this other than to show how easy it is for goverments and politicians to dance around their promises, to talk a big game but in the end actually do very little to nothing. We'll see how these types of real world questions play out in Sheild of Lies very shortly, see ya then. -----signature----- I am forever seeking the damutek of Hooley Krekk Oh, woe! Oh, misery! Oh, unhappiness. Hooley Krekk where are you?
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 6/25 7:24pm Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	beccatoria : KMac has a gift for swift and accurate characterisation, and these moments served as great reminders that the galaxy is big and that we don't always hear about every person who faced their fears heroically. I totally agree. KMac does have a gift for quick, engaging character pieces, and these little "slices of life" reminded us about the vastness of the galaxy, as well as the contributions of the "regular" people. The more recent books tend to focus closely on a relatively few characters and places, and I sometimes think we forget how big the galaxy really is because of that. Yes, Plat Mallar's story affected me the most too. I don't remember where his story goes next and I'm looking forward to finding out. I just started Shield of Lies, and KMac's ability to develop characters and make the reader care about them in a really short time, continues. In retrospect it is absolutely gut-wrenching...It's weird, it was never intended this way, but because of later context, it's now one of the most tragic moments in EU lit. Again, I agree. Knowing what happens to Jacen and Anakin, one going dark and both dying far too young, makes Leia's words heart-breaking. Even Jaina isn't exempt. While she didn't die, she lost both of her brothers and even had to kill her own twin. She has far too many tragic family stories to pass on to her children. I think that Luke was - in parallel to Leia - being written as burned out. Yes, and sadly, they hadn't yet faced some of their worst challenges. Many more were yet to come. I think that it's his behaviour in these books, more than any others, which makes me think that Mara had a point when she dressed him down in HoT and told him to tone it down. Actually, that's a great point. I never liked Mara's lecturing of Luke because I felt that in most of the books, Luke didn't use the Force enough. But you're right that he is using it more than he should in Before the Storm. Recreating his father's castle was an amazing (and pretty unnecessary) Force feat in itself. I would also agree that Luke is happiest when he's out doing things; saving people and slaying "dragons". But he usually does worry about whether he's doing the wrong thing, and that does sometimes paralyze him into inaction, as in the NJO. I think it's just description, since I think that Akanah is acting alone in her manipulations of Luke because she genuinely isn't in touch with the Fallanassi If it is a Fallanassi trick, maybe Akanah did the trick with the stormtroopers herself to test Luke? But the added information made me feel more annoyed with Akanah and that sort of eclipsed the bad feelings for Luke. I have always been annoyed with Akanah. She's one of the reasons for my earlier dislike of the Black Fleet Crisis, I think. She was far too manipulative as far as I was concerned, and Luke followed her around like a little lost puppy. And yes, she was hypocritical in judging Luke harshly while she herself was so deceitful and manipulative and hurtful.
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EagleEye Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 6/26 2:49pm Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	If I am reading the responses right (and if I'm not, please correct me), it seems like a lot of people did not like the Akanah storyline and her actions regarding Luke. However, I think Luke is not really out of character here. He has always been a naive individual, and he has dedicated his life to restoring a movement of the past. He has to constantly sift through elements of the past to find out what is true and what is not. He has done this consistently while trying to rebuild the Jedi Order. And for a naive kid who never knew his parents and has spent his life looking for things from the past, I do not think it is at all difficult to assume he would want ot know more information about his family, and he simply does not have the attachments that Leia does that prevents him from searching these answers out. I would also like to point out that it is possible that readers today might forget that Luke & Leia's mother was not really defined in any way up to this point.
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MistrX Registered: Jun '06	Date Posted: 7/16 12:07am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	So it's the middle of July and I just got around to finishing this one. Yeah, I'm a bit behind, seeing as we're supposed to be done with Shield of Lies by now. Hopefully, now I'll have a bit of time to get through that one and provide some late month discussion. Anyway, onto this one. I'm pretty sure I first read the BFC trilogy shortly after I saw Episode I, so I was wondering at the time if it would leave things ambiguous enough for them to be able to connect. Going in this time and knowing what I do about the end of that story as well as how Lando's storyline ties into (or more accurately doesn't) gives a different feel to reading it this time around. At least, different from what I can remember. Truth be told, I'd forgotten most of this book, aside from a few of Spaar's speeches, Lando's quest, and the attack on Mallar's colony and his escape. Rereading these are almost like getting entirely new Star Wars stories again. Maybe this time I'll remember them. Going back to the different "feel" I get this time regarding the knowledge that we have, I'm less focused this time on what Luke is learning about his mother and his relationship with Akanah. That's actually what's driving that storyline most for me, and it's interesting to see how this woman who has pretty much appeared out of nowhere may be the one that inadvertently brings him out of his crisis of faith. Maybe it's just the need for a distraction from the heavy questions Luke was having at the beginning of the novel (life does seem simpler when the heroes are on their quests) and I like seeing the development as they work together searching for her people. We get the typical, compassionate Luke but he's also surprisingly brutal in this one, killing assailants when it seems that he probably didn't have to do so. Maybe this journey is good for him. The first time I read the trilogy, I remember really liking his storyline because I really like Lando, Lobot was back and it was the first time I'd seen him since TESB, and the story was just fun for me. A big part of that enjoyment, though, was the anticipation of how it would tie into the greater story. When it didn't really, I was greatly disappointed. Knowing that this time, though, really helps me get into it a lot more and have fun with what it is. K-Mac does and excellent Lando and gives Lobot a real personality (something I also liked reading in "Idiot's Array"). It's also great to see the droids in a storyline where they're a real part of the story and have some purpose. It's a good team the old general has put together. Speaking of Lobot, a couple of scenes really stand out for me with him. One was the look at how Lobot was able to find the right information from the multitude contained in his head/computer. Or rather, K-Mac's inability to describe it. It's kind of fun to leave that to the imagination (though there are points where he leaves too much to the imagination. See below). The other that comes to mind is the moment where we get into Lobot's head and learn that he gets some quiet satisfaction any time his logical and calculated approach to thing yields better results than Lando's quick thinking, chance, and good luck. It's a fascinating look at the character that I enjoyed seeing. One thing I have to give K-Mac credit for is that he actually attempts to introduce new things, especially with new ships and alien species. It would help if he described some of them beyond "air sacs" or whatnot, but some readers just like to imagine such things. Some of us could use a little more guidance, though. Still, as has already been discussed, fleet junkies get a lot going for them in this one. What I really liked seeing was an expansion of support ships. Beyond our usual warships, cruisers, frigates, and corvettes we get our recon and scout ships, unmanned drones, interdictor pickets, survey vessels and the like. It's a good look at the support fleet we rarely get to see (something that carries over to some personnel as well) and gives the universe a wider, truer feeling while staying intimate and personal as we get to meet some of the NR's "little guys", even if only fleetingly. The wide range of characters is also a strong part of the book. Ackbar really gets to shine in this one (though like Becca, I wondered why Ackbar just walked into the Solo's bedroom and flipped on the light. Important info I suppose). Drayson gets quite a lot of expansion past his appearance in TTT. Drayson's characterization and some concerns I've read with Leia's whether here or elsewhere actually had me thinking. At this point we hadn't seen Drayson for seven years. Leia, on the other hand, is a woman whose life we've followed now quite closely for over 40 (and we've seen as far back as 60, though those first 20 are somewhat intermittent). People change, they have good days and bad days, or stretches of time where they'll act one way and completely differently in another. Maybe Drayson was putting up something of a facade before. Maybe he was just out of his league at the time. Maybe he's changed a lot in seven years. Whatever the reason, it's not too much of a stretch. In Leia's case, I can buy that she was getting burned out. Being president of a multi-planet government has to be a stressful job, particularly when it takes you away from your family. And someone stubborn like Leia, who probably puts all of the pressure on herself to make sure things work, it was going to get to her at some point. To see it happen opens up new possibilities, even if it does still raise the eyebrow (even I was surprised when Leia wondered if Han had disobeyed her order because she was a woman). I think that Leia's issues in this one gives the good opportunity to get and inside look at the government, with the many players and positions involved at the highest levels. It's nice to see that the NR has actually had some competent politicians over the years. (BTW, how great is it that Ackbar calls Behn-kilh-nahm "Bennie"?). One of those great things about rereading something are the little bits for foreshadowing that you didn't pick up on the first time. In this case, it was the mention of the spacers' major fear of entering Hyperspace and never leaving, even to the point where Han and Chewie let the pros tune up that particular system for the Falcon. It's a nice mention given Spaar's ultimate fate. -----signature----- "The only thing more insane than falsehood is truth." We are well and truly forked.
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beccatoria Title: 181st Imperial Discussion Group host Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 7/19 3:19am Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	Oh, awesome! People are still posting here. Eagle - it's actually not so much that I think Luke is out of character as that within the story, I don't like Akanah even though I think i'ts believable for Luke to be taken in by her? So it's not a criticism of the way KMac wrote her so much as...knowing how the story ends, I find her a much less likable character? MistrX - Welcome! Thanks for posting your thoughts. Very interesting. I agree with a lot of what you say, but just wanted to thank you for pointing out the issue of hyperspace as Spaar's final fate given the spacer's fear of being abandoned in it mentioned in this book. I'd totally forgotten that and it's an awesome little touch! It's also a good point that we really don't see much of Leia's (or Luke's) first twenty years of life. I suppose that's partly because the intra-trilogy era is being left for Lucas to play in but...I'd never considered the disparity quite so starkly before. HMM! -----signature----- legatus imperatoris britanniæ superior REMEMBER: DARTH MAUL: SHADOW HUNTER DISCUSSION STARTS IN NOVEMBER! Han's a girl, so I got a Golden Ewok.
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EagleEye Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 7/19 6:57pm Subject: RE: The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm!
	That's fair. I am mearly saying that I didn't mind Luke's characterization in this series. If you didn't like Akanah, I think that's totally cool. She definitly jerks poor Luke around plenty over the three books.
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