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Topic:
Knights of the Old Republic #33: Vindication, part 2
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Nobody145
Registered:
Feb '07
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Date Posted:
6/19 2:56am
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic 33: Vindication Part 2
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On the Alek= Malak thing, its been pretty obvious that Alek would end up like that, given his... unorthodox views on certain Jedi manners, and the Guide just officially canonized, though I wish they had left it uncertain, to give JJM more time to drag out the suspense, as he is such an awesome author. There is still some... room for debate though, as I think the entire Essential Guide to the Force was written in-universe, that is the entire book is officially by a Star Wars character, Tionne I think, with her working off whatever sources she can find, like the Great Holocron or any other Holocrons they've dug up over the years, so they could always retcon things so that Tionne or her sources turned out to be wrong, especially since she's writing about stuff 4,000 years before her time.
I'm not arguing against Alek being Malak, I just wish they hadn't confirmed it so soon, since just giving the KotOR backstory would've been enough, but they inserted Revan's story too. Too bad they couldn't have added Zayne's story, but that probably would've been too much of a spoiler (like whether Zayne ever goes down in history as a hero, a murderer, or is just written off as a joke).
Oh yeah, after KotOR #30 is out, Haazen just looks worse and worse, and I don't mean in the physical sense.
I sometimes wonder if we over-analyze things, if some things are supposed to be obvious, or whether some are just red herrings. I just hope most of the KotOR characters stay themselves, well, with the exception of the game characters of course.
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QuinineVos
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
6/19 7:16am
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic 33: Vindication Part 2
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Rogue_Follower posted:
QuinineVos posted:
KnightDawg posted:
Who's arguing about Alec becoming Darth Malak? Its official...its canon.
It is? Did JJM actuall say that directly? The whole "we now know where Malak is from" thing on his blog could be designed mislead us. Miller has been throwing us bones like that from the very beginning. He wouldn't be constructing a very great mystery if he were making it that obvious. Doesn't sound like him. Anyway, correct me if he stated it directly somewhere. I missed it, if so.
It was in the Essential Guide to the Force, I believe. Which is rather unfortunate, IMO. Even though it has been increasingly obvious that Alek is Malak and The Revanchist is Revan, I still love JJM keeping us in suspense.
Thanks for the info, all. That's too bad. I bet JJM wasn't too happy about that.
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Vrook_Lamar
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
6/19 10:09am
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic 33: Vindication Part 2
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If you scroll down this link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/BtT1), there's a picture of someone that looks exactly like some of Sion's concept art but has Haazen's glowing red eye. It's probably just some kind of sign of use of Dark Side power than a robot eye and he looks no more like Haazen than any other picure of Sion. I think the picture comes from Threats of the Galaxy.
I don't know if anyone else has brought this up, but isn't Haazen chronologicaly the earliest person to be depicted with a red lightsaber, apart from cover art for TotJ and the pinkish lightsaber the Cathar uses in TotJ Redemption? Also his lightsaber hilt looks a bit like his walking stick so it may be actually hidden in it or it's just that he likes that sort of design.
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cbagmjg
Registered:
Jul '06
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Date Posted:
6/19 10:21am
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic 33: Vindication Part 2
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Vrook_Lamar posted:
If you scroll down this link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/BtT1), there's a picture of someone that looks exactly like some of Sion's concept art but has Haazen's glowing red eye. It's probably just some kind of sign of use of Dark Side power than a robot eye and he looks no more like Haazen than any other picure of Sion. I think the picture comes from Threats of the Galaxy.
I don't know if anyone else has brought this up, but isn't Haazen chronologicaly the earliest person to be depicted with a red lightsaber, apart from cover art for TotJ and the pinkish lightsaber the Cathar uses in TotJ Redemption? Also his lightsaber hilt looks a bit like his walking stick so it may be actually hidden in it or it's just that he likes that sort of design.
Sion has had a glowing red eye in more than 1 picture. The cover of KOTOR 2:TSL he has a glowing red eye and a picture of him on this site has it as well. The red eye part means absolutely nothing to me. It's eveything else Haazen has(cybernetic arm and legs)that makes absolutely no sense for him to be Sion. The arm is one thing, the shoulder and clawed feet is another.
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Zorrixor
Registered:
Sep '04
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Date Posted:
6/19 11:14am
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic 33: Vindication Part 2
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Vrook_Lamar posted:
If you scroll down this link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/BtT1), there's a picture of someone that looks exactly like some of Sion's concept art but has Haazen's glowing red eye. It's probably just some kind of sign of use of Dark Side power than a robot eye and he looks no more like Haazen than any other picure of Sion. I think the picture comes from Threats of the Galaxy.
In Threats of the Galaxy that picture is under a subheading titled "Fallen Jedi Sith Lord" although the text of the archtype is mostly just talking about the original Exiles.
On the left side of the page though is the generic Sith Lord archtype so the image could correspond to that as well though given the basic page layout in the book I think its meant to go with the Falleen Jedi Sith Lord part.
I assumed it was Sion... though I've been reluctant to say for sure.
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QuinineVos
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
6/22 1:40am
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic 33: Vindication Part 2
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Perhaps Haazen is the long-awaited link between the Sith War–era Sith and the new Sith of the KOTOR era. Wouldn't it be interesting if Haazen, perhaps secretly a darksider under Exar Kun in the Sith War, with a covert agenda ever since, proves to be instrumental in encouraging Revan and Malak toward the dark side?
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Grey1
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
6/22 3:08am
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic 33: Vindication Part 2
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Rogue_Follower posted:
QuinineVos posted:
KnightDawg posted:
Who's arguing about Alec becoming Darth Malak? Its official...its canon.
It is? Did JJM actuall say that directly? The whole "we now know where Malak is from" thing on his blog could be designed mislead us. Miller has been throwing us bones like that from the very beginning. He wouldn't be constructing a very great mystery if he were making it that obvious. Doesn't sound like him. Anyway, correct me if he stated it directly somewhere. I missed it, if so.
It was in the Essential Guide to the Force, I believe. Which is rather unfortunate, IMO. Even though it has been increasingly obvious that Alek is Malak and The Revanchist is Revan, I still love JJM keeping us in suspense.
QuinineVos posted:
Thanks for the info, all. That's too bad. I bet JJM wasn't too happy about that.
I wouldn't make such a drama out of it. First of all, how many of the readers read the source books? Not so many. Most who find out about it do it through internet discussion, and I think some of us still ignore the information anyway, because they didn't read it themselves. And I suppose there's still lots of readers who don't participate in internet discussions, so they wouldn't have a clue of the existence of the source book.
Second, Flashpoint is excellent in creating a scene in which the pieces of the puzzle fall together. Out of all the great KOTOR moments this easily comes out on top. Thinking of it as a red herring is not acknowledging how excellently it was played out, so maybe JJM isn't too happy with people who didn't get Alek being meant as Malak.  (For the record, I doubt that he's unhappy with any group of readers at all. Maybe more with the non-readers )
In the same vein, having a guy whose name, face and even gender aren't cleared up being called The Revanchist (or even, in its earlier stage, "the guy who promotes revanchism") is an excellent way of dealing with the obvious Revan issues.
Think of it this way: Who (of the more engaged fans) seriously went into Episode 1 and didn't know that the little boy would become Vader, the guy from Trainspotting would become old Ben Kenobi, skeleton 3PO would become shiny 3PO and politician Palpatine would become Emperor Palpatine? The KOTOR comic still functions as a prequel, even if its primary focus is an original story.
And while we're at it... I'm still in the Lucien = Sion camp, and I've been there ever since #13 or something like that, back when Lucien wore black gloves to his outfit. He really looked like a dressed-up Sion in that scene. As for Haazen, he's not only no real physical fit, but also too early and too scheming. Sion was a Maul guy, no Palpatine style manipulator. Body over mind, and therefore his dead body could trick his feeble mind... "Oh? Just a flesh wound, I'm OK."
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Mustafar_66
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
6/22 3:33am
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic 33: Vindication Part 2
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As I was playing back through TSL, I started to become more and more convinced that The Exile was Zayne. A lot of it fits his character (namely the making friends easily part, the distinct lack of trust from the Council etc), but also, I was convinced that Sion was Draay. However, when the two meet on Korriban, the conversation they have shows absolutely no signs of recognition or past history, so in my mind that means that only one of them can be the person that I think them to be. Personally, I prefer the idea of Zayne being The Exile rather than Draay becoming Sion.
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MercenaryAce
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
6/22 10:24am
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic 33: Vindication Part 2
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Shame about the exile being a woman then.
And also Zayne not being a general.
And being a fugitive from the order instead of being recruited directly from said order by Malak.
Anyway....it looks to me like all the remaining prophecies are coming together in this arc...but what then....I mean, we still don't know what Jareal's deal is...
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Mustafar_66
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
6/22 11:15am
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic 33: Vindication Part 2
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MercenaryAce posted:
Shame about the exile being a woman then.
And also Zayne not being a general.
And being a fugitive from the order instead of being recruited directly from said order by Malak.
Anyway....it looks to me like all the remaining prophecies are coming together in this arc...but what then....I mean, we still don't know what Jareal's deal is...
Yeah, the Exile being a woman is just wrong in my opinion. The Exile's actions just seem more masculine rather than feminine.
As for the second point, he could've hypothetically been made a General after joining Revan and Malak on the Outer Rim. Also, for the third point he could've been accepted back into the order after Draay et al have been found to be murdering loonies.
But as you say, the Exile's been made female which is a shame because Zayne being The Exile would've made so much sense.
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Kenobi_Kid
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
6/22 12:49pm
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic 33: Vindication Part 2
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I don't nessecarily want Zayne to be the Exile. I don't think that his personality so far matches what we know of Revan's best general. I don't see him becoming Nihilus either. Why does he need to be tied to the games? He's a character that we've fallen in love with as much as we did Revan and the Exile. I just want him to be Zayne Carrick, Jedi on the run.
And on another note, I too have always felt that the Jedi Exile was male. His personality and actions to me seemed more masculine and I was pretty disapointed when he was declared to be female just because a single reference in the droids book said so. If Zayne was to eventually become the Exile through some unforseen future development, I'd cheer merely for the fact that it would prove the Exile's masculinity once and for all.
What I'd like to see in KOTOR 3, if it ever gets made, would be to have a seperate male and female character. It would prevent disapointing "canon" because both characters would exist canonicaly, rather then having half of the fans disapointed because they liked one version of Revan better then the other.
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EmperorPL
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
6/22 1:23pm
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic 33: Vindication Part 2
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On Haazen: I think he might be one of Exar's Kun "acolytes". He went to kill his master, Barrison Draay, but "he was a great Jedi warrior" and during fight Haazen lost his legs and arm, but eventually killed Barrison. When Jedi arrivedm Haazen could said he and his master were attacked by the Sith. So he was saved, but was so injured that he couldn't be jedi no longer. Then he went to Krynda.............
Heres my theory about Zayne and Lucien:
Zayne will become Darth Sion
Lucien will become Darth Nihilus
Why? 1st thing: look at their both apperances. Lucien is very tall, as same as Nihilus. Zayne was average tall as Sion was.
2nd: Kreia says on Nihilus: Why did he spared Miraluka (Visas Marr)? Perhaps it was last sign of humanity in him (or somethig like that). And remember Lucien and Quanila have close relationships.....
3rd: Look at the titles of some KotOR comics: Knights of Suffering, Daze of Hate - it fits Sion well.
4th: Look at this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=IobIhctxRXg When Sion says he never needed Nihilus, he spoke with hate. He maybe reffering to time as Lucien padawan.
5th: There's option Haazen takes Zayne as apprentice (as he wanted to I think) as well as Lucien before, so they have "sith education"
6th: as above but with Krynda/Kreia instead of Haazen.
7th: remember first Zayne vision? He said someone will clear him bla bla bla..."And if I do end up collapsing the Jedi Order, just remember one thing. You started it" It might be hint to First Jedi Purge started by Sion and Nihilus, also Sion trained and was Sith Assassin (which is also correpondent to Jedi Sentinel...)
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cs47
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
6/22 2:41pm
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic 33: Vindication Part 2
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EmperorPL posted:
On Haazen: I think he might be one of Exar's Kun "acolytes". He went to kill his master, Barrison Draay, but "he was a great Jedi warrior" and during fight Haazen lost his legs and arm, but eventually killed Barrison. When Jedi arrivedm Haazen could said he and his master were attacked by the Sith. So he was saved, but was so injured that he couldn't be jedi no longer. Then he went to Krynda.............
Heres my theory about Zayne and Lucien:
Zayne will become Darth Sion
Lucien will become Darth Nihilus
Why? 1st thing: look at their both apperances. Lucien is very tall, as same as Nihilus. Zayne was average tall as Sion was.
2nd: Kreia says on Nihilus: Why did he spared Miraluka (Visas Marr)? Perhaps it was last sign of humanity in him (or somethig like that). And remember Lucien and Quanila have close relationships.....
3rd: Look at the titles of some KotOR comics: Knights of Suffering, Daze of Hate - it fits Sion well.
4th: Look at this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=IobIhctxRXg When Sion says he never needed Nihilus, he spoke with hate. He maybe reffering to time as Lucien padawan.
5th: There's option Haazen takes Zayne as apprentice (as he wanted to I think) as well as Lucien before, so they have "sith education"
6th: as above but with Krynda/Kreia instead of Haazen.
7th: remember first Zayne vision? He said someone will clear him bla bla bla..."And if I do end up collapsing the Jedi Order, just remember one thing. You started it" It might be hint to First Jedi Purge started by Sion and Nihilus, also Sion trained and was Sith Assassin (which is also correpondent to Jedi Sentinel...)
What do you think of another possibility, namely Haazen=Nihilus and Lucien=Sion?
In my opinion, your fourth point seems to fit that idea.
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MercenaryAce
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
6/22 5:11pm
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic 33: Vindication Part 2
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Yeah, the Exile being a woman is just wrong in my opinion. The Exile's actions just seem more masculine rather than feminine.
*sigh* Every other "chose a gender" character is made male, and yet I have seen more people bich about the one exception than I have seen for the others combined...
Well, whatever, I think Revan should have been a woman and Exile a man, but the opposite happened.
But even if Zayne and Exile were the same gender, I just can't see Zayne become him.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
6/22 6:03pm
Subject:
RE: Knights of the Old Republic 33: Vindication Part 2
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I love how people are assuming minute differences will be more important in the Haazen/Sion business than the huge gaping similarities.
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