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Topic:
Disenchanted With Star Wars Novels
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Trilaan
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
6/14 2:31am
Subject:
Disenchanted With Star Wars Novels
- Date Edited:
6/14 2:39am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Trilaan
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I'm probably going to stop reading Star Wars novels that take place after the Yuuzhan Vong war. At the very least I'll stop reading the lengthy series'. The reason is simply because I'm already sick and tired of characters I love being killed off. First it was Chewbacca and Anakin then it was Mara. I've just had enough. I know they all have to die sometime but they're dropping like effing flies and I, personally, would like a little more distance between my character deaths. I still might forgive things if someone at least gives Jacen the punishment he truly deserves for being such a moron.
I also hate how Luke's been dumbed down so much that he can't see the truth when it's right in front of him. The Luke from previous novels would have figured out the Jacen/Lumiya connection much faster. I don't think Legacy of the Force has given him his proper dues.
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Excellence
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
6/14 3:35am
Subject:
RE: Disenchanted With Star Wars Novels
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Dammit!! *pounds table* The force was with you, Tril. I had this lengthy candid post all typed up that wasn't particularly polite and switched windows and lost it and damn it. I'm not retyping from memory. Going to cry now...
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Trilaan
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
6/14 4:37am
Subject:
RE: Disenchanted With Star Wars Novels
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*scratches head* Uh.....hooray? Anyway, I may be upset about it but at least as far as deaths go they've been pretty awesome. Not super awesome...although Chewie's demise is close. Just pretty awesome. As long as they don't, as Samuel L. said, "go out like a punk" I'll be reasonably happy. Though, let's be honest, Samuel...your character went out like a punk.
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
6/14 4:39am
Subject:
RE: Disenchanted With Star Wars Novels
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One word of advice: comics.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
6/14 4:50am
Subject:
RE: Disenchanted With Star Wars Novels
- Date Edited:
6/14 5:31am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Charlemagne19
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Charlemagne19 will now begin a rant
I confess, I've become somewhat disenchanted with Star Wars as well. Really, I feel like Conan pushing the wheel of pain in Conan the Barbarian. It's not that I don't enjoy the books, its just that they're slowly grinding me down.
I think the biggest problem is that Star Wars is, fundamentally, supposed to be about FUN. I don't mind characters being killed off. I do, however, think that when you do it then you should have a character that's just as enjoyable to fill their shoes.
The Tragedy of Darth Caedus the Ill-Advised proves to be an example of something that's just slowly eroded my sense of fun about Star Wars. I didn't have any problem with them killing Jacen Solo. Jacen was an animal that was more evil than Palpatine.
The problem is that they didn't treat him like this and tried to make a monster every bit as evil as SATAN into something sympathetic, that just made for some passages that basically amounted to reading Hannibal Lector's thoughts. Had they made Jacen Solo a rapist and a cannibal then I truly believe that I wouldn't have thought him anymore evil but the books would STILL try to make him sympathetic.
I think the biggest annoyance I have with Star Wars is NOT moral ambiguity. The books had Imperials that were cool, stylish, and interesting as early as Heir to the Empire. Arguably, they were as awesome as the good guys as early as ANH or ESB. We know the Empire is evil in the original Trilogy and we have Lucas making the people of Coruscant sing "Ding Dong the Witch is Dead" with Palpatine (something I acknowledge the EU has retconned out).
The biggest problem with Star Wars is that they're trying to make our characters ANGST. There seems to be a tremendous desire to mentally and physically torture our characters so that they seem to be PUNISHED for being heroes. Only broody anti-heroes like the Clone Troopers/Stormtroopers (members of the Star Wars equivalent of the Waffen-SS) seem to be allowed to act because the assumption is that evil is the only one able to actively engage in war.
It's like a return to the pea-green fog of Dark Empire except the light at the end of the tunnel is nowhere in sight.
I think, under Del Ray, Star Wars has become enchanted with evil. It no longer believes that the good guys have what it takes to be cool. This isn't even something that has the excuse of being the diminishing of the original heroes for the next generation. I've made no secret that I prefer Luke, Han, and Leia to the Next Generation but its clear that they aren't being sidelined for the next generation. Anakin is dead, Jacen is damned for all eternity in a well-deserved prison for super villains (He's currently whining his head off to Fu Manchu and Professor Moriarty), and Jaina Solo seems destined to make no more lasting contribution to the EU than losing her name to found a dynasty of Space Hapsburgs.
It all boils down to Luke Skywalker.
What does this have to do with Luke Skywalker? I think that Luke Skywalker has the biggest problem of essentially being the guy who represents the Star Wars Happy Expanded Universe. It's like what happened with Spiderman in the fact that they kept trying to turn Peter Parker into this angst ridden and brooding whiner. It's been such a theme of his storyline that they actually had to wipe away 30 years of continuity to bring him back to his early college days in the hopes of restoring some of his fun.
I had no problem with Luke Skywalker (or Jaina or Leia killing) Jacen Solo. I would have honestly preferred, like Child of Winds, a "Shadow" ending where Jacen gets a lobotomy and ends up in an insane asylum where he's lost his force powers and no longer can do anything cool while being forced to live out his days in misery. However, the problem is that kind of ending seems to require Del Ray to make the decision we should be HAPPY Jacen Solo the ANIMAL that he is defeated. Apparently, it's no longer enough that a person kills MILLIONS of innocent people for him to be bad in the minds of Del Ray.
To be fair, George Lucas is partially responsible for this. The Prequels themselves are a story of ill equipped but well-intentioned people surrounding their hopes on a Child-Killer. Jacen Solo shares the problem of Anakin Skywalker in that, as early as Betrayal and AOTC's Tusken Massacre, I was fully behind them as Embodiments of EVILTM. Dracula, Anakin Skywalker, and Doctor Doom.
In my mind, killing children is enough to warrant you joining the Dark Side of the ForceTM.
Innocent characters like Luke Skywalker and Tahiri are just not welcome in the new Star Wars Universe. Apparently, heroism is a burden and we're not supposed to cheer when evil is destroyed. Worse, this has effected fandom at all levels that the books deliberately right Imperials and Mandalorians as the protagonists.
It's a double edged sword because while I don't necessarilly LIKE the cartoon Ubber Alles that the Baby Eating Space Nazi portrayal of Bantam occasionally touched on with the Empire, the simple fact is that at least we wouldn't have to wade through disgusting rationalization after rationalization that followed Darth Caedus.
I think part of the reason that KOTOR has been so popular is that it attempts to Silver Age up the EU in that Zayne Carrick is clearly a good guy, he fights clear bad guys, and while the Mandalorians are pretty much just cartoon villains along the lines of Cobra from G.I. Joe they are also not made out to be RIDICULOUSLY evil. Even KOTOR has the oddity of the Jedi Knights being the bad guys though, so it doesn't entirely remove the element.
It's not that I *HATE* THE EU, I still love and buy it. It's just it's getting to be a little tiresome and boring to be honest. Which I never thought I'd say that since I still have the Boba Fett figurine on the top of my desk right now and a lightsaber left over from the days when I was like three years old and Return of the Jedi Toys were still on the shelves.
I know people are going to disagree with this rant. They're going to trot out the usual arguments that Charles is in his own little world and DON'T YOU WANT STAR WARS TO BE AN ADULT! ARE YOU NOT 27!? WHY DO YOU WANT STAR WARS TO BE CHILDISH!? Well, I stick with Tom Baker (4th Doctor)'s quote. "Doctor Who may be a children's show but it doesn't have to be a childish show." I don't want Star Wars to be childish in that everything has to be 2-dimensional to a ridiculous degree. I do think that we don't have to be ashamed of having heroes and villains though.
Bizarrely, I think Del Ray's attitude has actually made the characters have LESS depth to be honest. The Yuuzhan Vong set the bar ridiculously high for genocidal racists, religious fanatics, torturers, pain freaks, etc. Quite literally, it's a good thing they had no real world analogue or it would be the most painfully racist cariacture of a people in the history of the world. The Yuuzhan Vong really had less depth in my opinion than Tolkien's Orcs.
Yet, Del Ray after beating us over the head with the utter vileness of the Yuuzhan Vong. After they wiped out Ithor, after they ravaged the galaxy, and pretty much tortured everything. We're asked for their forgiveness. I'm not suggesting this is NOT a Star Wars theme. I thought the ending of the Unifying Force was the most Star Wars thing we've seen in a while. I question the validity of having to make them be such 1 dimensional Warhammer Servants of Chaos to begin with.
But yes, with the Yuuzhan Vong setting the bar, it becomes MUCH MUCH MUCH harder to presume Del Ray wants us to hate and be glad this villain is gone. Plus, after the Yuuzhan Vong, its very difficult to get emotionally invested in the storyline given they so utterly trashed the galaxy that we're still feeling the effects 100 Comic Book years later.
I'm not entirely sure Star Wars is not KUBAR (Kriffed Up Beyond All Repair) by this point.
End Rant
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
6/14 5:03am
Subject:
RE: Disenchanted With Star Wars Novels
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Charles, one word of advice: comics.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
6/14 5:07am
Subject:
RE: Disenchanted With Star Wars Novels
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SuperWatto posted:
Charles, one word of advice: comics.
Yeah cause Legacy and the Dark Times are a wonderful source of cheery wholesome Star Wars fun.
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Lord_Riven
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
6/14 5:16am
Subject:
RE: Disenchanted With Star Wars Novels
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Wow C19, just Wow.
I don't think I'd be able to follow with anything half as eloquent.
But for me the major problem is the lack of definition of bad and good. And when they try to make it morally ambiguous they make a right mess of it. I didn't understand whether or not Darth Caedus was a morally ambiguous villain or a straight out villain. I don't even think the authors themselves were 100% entirely sure themselves, with the differing interpretations of Caedus from raving lunatic to the schemer. Or Mandalorians. Are we seriously meant to believe that they are morally superior to Jedi?
Secondly, the dumbing down of Luke - they have to seem to cripple him some way to make the villain seem more powerful for some reason. The YV weren't affected by the Force, for me that worked as it created something that Luke had to adjust to handle. He had to learn new things, and he didn't look incredible weak in terms of physical fighting or skill. It was more the philosophical weakness and he wasn't sure of what to do, but once sure he was out there kicking butt like he does. Also done once it works, done twice it starts to get boring, three times (in NJO, DNT and LOTF) it becomes bad. (ie. Luke couldn't see the YV in the Force - should they be allowed to survive, DNT - the whole Killik collective mind -parts were bad parts were good, and LOTF - looking weak against Lumiya should he just go all out to kill her or not, is she really still evil). It's a character motif that seems to be repeated with Luke. He has to somehow be artificially weakened with some moral quandry rather than say, making the villain very powerful.
Thirdly, the mangling of the Next Generation. They have been mishandled. Heck, even Wedge says it best, he was put out to pasture, he should have stayed there and been replaced with the next generation - but no, two Solo kids are dead, and the last one seems destined to be the Empress of the next Empire, hardly a fitting legacy for Han and Leia...with no sons to carry on the Solo name. Jaina's constant back and forth between Jag and Zekk has also IMO dragged out way too long. The supporting cast of the next generation has hardly been present...
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Legacy AU fic: Family Ties. Follow the link in the next line. http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3751906/1/Star_Wars_Legacy_Family_Ties Casiah - Cade Skywalker x Marasiah Fel 'shipper (#1) Canderous >>> Boba Fett
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Furyan_Jedi_13
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
6/14 5:25am
Subject:
RE: Disenchanted With Star Wars Novels
- Date Edited:
6/14 5:32am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Furyan_Jedi_13
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To be honest, I think that the EU has started to suffer ever since Del Rey took over. The NJO just changed everything that I once loved. Characters that I used to love and adore have been either killed, ignored, or changed in a way that I never would have dreamed of, much less feared. And now, at the end of LOTF, I can only sit back and weep.
Thank you very much Del Rey. You destroyed something that I loved so dearly.
Thirdly, the mangling of the Next Generation. They have been mishandled. Heck, even Wedge says it best, he was put out to pasture, he should have stayed there and been replaced with the next generation - but no, two Solo kids are dead, and the last one seems destined to be the Empress of the next Empire, hardly a fitting legacy for Han and Leia...with no sons to carry on the Solo name. Jaina's constant back and forth between Jag and Zekk has also IMO dragged out way too long. The supporting cast of the next generation has hardly been present...
See, I believe that we need to go back to before the NJO occured, and rewrite everything in a much better way. Personally, I pray every day that this will happen, but I doubt Del Rey would want all of their hard work to be undone.
I just wish that they had done some more research before they started this ongoing train wreck.
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
6/14 5:52am
Subject:
RE: Disenchanted With Star Wars Novels
- Date Edited:
6/14 6:00am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
SuperWatto
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Okay, lemme rephrase: five words of advice: Knight Of The Old Republic.
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KnightDawg
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
6/14 5:56am
Subject:
RE: Disenchanted With Star Wars Novels
- Date Edited:
6/14 5:57am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
KnightDawg
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Trilaan posted:
I'm probably going to stop reading Star Wars novels that take place after the Yuuzhan Vong war. At the very least I'll stop reading the lengthy series'. The reason is simply because I'm already sick and tired of characters I love being killed off. First it was Chewbacca and Anakin then it was Mara. I've just had enough. I know they all have to die sometime but they're dropping like effing flies and I, personally, would like a little more distance between my character deaths. I still might forgive things if someone at least gives Jacen the punishment he truly deserves for being such a moron.
I also hate how Luke's been dumbed down so much that he can't see the truth when it's right in front of him. The Luke from previous novels would have figured out the Jacen/Lumiya connection much faster. I don't think Legacy of the Force has given him his proper dues.
LotF has given me more interest in the SW novels than the NJO ever did.
Its a shame that people can't just sit back an enjoy stories unfold over time and through multiple series rather than demand every plot thread be answered all at once, IMO.
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
6/14 6:14am
Subject:
RE: Disenchanted With Star Wars Novels
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Dawg, speaking for myself: that has nothing to do with it.
It's more that they've turned myth into misery.
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KnightDawg
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
6/14 6:25am
Subject:
RE: Disenchanted With Star Wars Novels
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huh????....when wasn't there "misery" in the SW Universe though? It seems to date back all the way to the Rakata's enslaving the galaxy straight through to the One Sith's current rule of the galaxy.
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The_Four_Dot_Elipsis
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
6/14 6:36am
Subject:
RE: Disenchanted With Star Wars Novels
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I can't make the same associations that others seem to be making here with certain publishers and certain brand names. I mean, there's this intrinsic Del Rey = NJO/LOTF and Dark Horse = Legacy link that seems to go on and...yeah, they've actually both done a lot more than that, and are continuing to do so. It's as though the only important pieces of media are the ones pushing into the future of Star Wars, and to be honest, while I keep up with it, it's not where my interests lie. In terms of contributing to earlier, more interesting time frames I don't think that Del Rey has done all that bad a job...there have been some clunkers, but Dark Horse has had their fair share of that too, even in recent times.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, if you don't like what's happening in the Post-ROTJ area, don't just write off novels wholesale. There's stuff like Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor and Jedi Twilight and...uh...The Force Unleashed all coming out relatively soon, and you can be fairly sure they won't be the character axing "doom and gloom" that everyone likes to whine about. As for the comics...yeah. Knights of the Old Republic. That'll do me, thank you very much, unless Cade dies or gets voted off Legacy and Wyyrlok kills Krayt and becomes the main antagonist. Otherwise...eh, keep it. 
The other two Dark Horse lines? What other two Dark Horse lines?
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Jedi Ben
Registered:
Jul '99
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Date Posted:
6/14 9:01am
Subject:
RE: Disenchanted With Star Wars Novels
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It could be said that we have the Zahn-Stackpole alliance, with Allston it's 3rd member, to thank for the sympathetic portrait of Imperials yet this would be inaccurate. As Charles' post points out, right from the off: The Empire was cool. In ANH they turn up in a big bastard starship that's pounding the crap out of a much smaller one. So the question is: When did it become that the Empire had to be right?
Zahn started the ball rolling with a portrait of the Empire in HTTE that saw an order versus chaos conflict, the Republic was enmeshed in the latter with the Empire standing for the former. Yet, Zahn also accepted that, as the villains, the Empire should have a seductive appeal but remains wrong. There's nothing good about carpet-bombing a planet for the greater good, or blowing up entire planets for that matter.
It could be said Zahn reflected an aspect of the real world, in that people sometimes have a disconnect with what an ideology's advocates do and the ideology itself. Thus despite Mao, Stalin and Lenin, some still see communism as being a worthwhile system. (Marx's critique of capitalism remains surprisingly valid.) Similarly in SW it seems that despite the rampages of Palpatine, Thrawn, Daala and numerous other Imperials, there remains this sense that 'they' weren't really Imperials, that the system could be good. It's this final destination that appears to be where DR has taken this element.
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Dawud786
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
6/14 9:07am
Subject:
RE: Disenchanted With Star Wars Novels
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The thing is... for so long the EU has equaled the future of the Star Wars galaxy. So when we see them making Luke, Han and Leia's generation... and their children's generation... be the most misrable and war ravaged generations ever in the history of the galaxy you get kinda sad. I mean, I can't even compare the doom and gloom of NJO-LOTF with Legacy... Legacy's got the galaxy controlled by a new Sith Empire, another Galactic Empire that's morally ambiguous with Imperial Knights that could be allies or foes, and an almost non-actor GA and MIA Jedi and a Skywalker that's transitioning from hopeless low life to a man coming to grips with his role as a Jedi, and a Skywalker. It's still got more of a hopeful air than it seems with Luke's life. Let's say, on some off chance, that Del Rey decides to leave the Luke era behind with Millenium Falcon... it's not going to change that every good thing in Luke's life besides Ben has been taken away. Every good thing in Han and Leia's life has been taken away because not only are their sons dead, but their daughter killed one of their sons! Sure, they've got Allana, but again, her life is already rife with tragedy at the age of what? 5 or 6? The simple fact that this is what they've turned the world of 60 year old Luke Skywalker into 30 years down the line when 20 year old Luke Skywalker's world was controlled by the evil Galactic Empire and there was a very real existential crisis with the Force being completely out of balance and he was literally an orphan at that point only to have his life turned upside down when he finds out that his greatest enemy is in fact his idolize father and it was STILL full of hope and optimism! Even Dark Empire ends on a very positive note, and when the storyline is retread in DEII/EE it's still hopeful because while Luke's fighting the very personification of the dark side of the Force he's also making real tangible steps to passing on what he had learned of the Force and the Jedi Order. We've yet to get a comic as asthetically dark as DE and yet there's hope, optimism and light in it ultimately. Far more than we are seeing now.
Plus, the only way we can make the threat of Darth Sidious, his Galactic Empire and his co-opting of the Chosen One stand up to the threat of the Yuuzhan Vong is to rely upon a cosmic existential threat posed by the imbalance of the Force that remains still undefined by the PT! I'm making a fanon supposition on what the imbalance of the Force actually means that it required a Jedi Messiah to right the balance and what not. It's the only way I can make sense of that particular aspect of ill-defined Star Wars lore... and the only way I can make sense of how the Chosen One was needed for Sidious and not for the YV.
I'm disenchanted and I'm waiting on MF because I think Luceno's a good author and has done great things for STar Wars. I'm holding off on Coruscant Nights until I hear more about it, maybe some spoilers. The fact that it's in the dark times at least gives me some relief that it can't add more grief to Luke's generation. Comics are all I have right now that are keeping me into Star Wars. Sad, but true. The other thing is, the comics are currently a far superior form of Star Wars literature to the novels. FAR SUPERIOR. Not to degrade comics... it's just that I remember a time when I was more reliant on a good Star Wars yarn in a novel than in a comic.
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