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Topic:
Fan-frigging-tastic
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Trip
Registered:
Dec '03
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Date Posted:
6/22 5:08am
Subject:
Fan-frigging-tastic
- Date Edited:
6/22 5:13am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Trip
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Wizards of the Coast posted:
The New Jedi Order Era
Although the Rule of Two prevented Vader from taking on a true apprentice, he did pass his teachings to pupils, notably the Dark Lady of the Sith, Lumiya. She trained several apprentices during this era, but they are not truly Sith because Lumiya herself does not become full-fledged Sith until her training by Vergere in the Legacy era.
In The New Jedi Order era, the Sith are all but extinct. It is only through the training of Vergere that Lumiya becomes a true Dark Lady of the Sith. Dark Jedi characters would be more appropriate.
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The_Loyal_Imperial
Title: YAHTZEE Host
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
6/22 5:10am
Subject:
RE: Well... crap.
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...Well, nothing quite like erasing any and all possible ambiguity, is there?
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Trip
Registered:
Dec '03
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Date Posted:
6/22 5:13am
Subject:
RE: Fan-frigging-tastic
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I'm clinging to the fact that the entire article is very poorly researched.
But yeah.
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Taung > Mando'ade
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
6/22 5:30am
Subject:
RE: Fan-frigging-tastic
- Date Edited:
6/22 5:39am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Ulicus
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Do not want.
The entire article is poorly researched, however, as you say. Incredibly poorly researched, actually. It's like Mr Grau doesn't know Abel's work exists.
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beccatoria
Title: 181st Imperial Discussion Group host
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
6/22 5:54am
Subject:
RE: Fan-frigging-tastic
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How long do I have to keep telling you people that WOTC are the DEVIL before you start believing me?!
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Excellence
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
6/22 6:03am
Subject:
RE: Fan-frigging-tastic
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Call me a koala hugger, but what was wrong with that excerpt above? Lumie couldn't be a real Sith with the duo above her, so got her chance later but a personage we've long suspected was one since Jacen asked her in Traitor and she gave a very carefully worded deflective reply, and what a long sentence!
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HedecGa
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
6/22 6:37am
Subject:
RE: Fan-frigging-tastic
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Yeah, I'm not quite sure what the big hubbub is here. 
Please, explain, though, so I can be upset with everyone else!
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Barriss_Coffee
Registered:
Jun '03
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Date Posted:
6/22 7:47am
Subject:
RE: Fan-frigging-tastic
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The timing is off chronology-wise, and it also seems to be stirring up that old Vergere-is-a-Sith debate that makes friendly folks on this board into mortal enemies, kinda like that 3-million-clone topic. Um, forget I mentioned that analogy.
My biggest problem with this is that, what with the way it's written, Vergere survived into the Legacy Era. Which would be... kinda weird. But if Daala's CoS I'll believe anything at this point.
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Rogue_Follower
Title: Manager: Literature
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
6/22 8:07am
Subject:
RE: Fan-frigging-tastic
- Date Edited:
6/22 8:10am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Rogue_Follower
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Note, however, that the article does not state that Vergere is a Sith... 
Ulicus posted:
The entire article is poorly researched, however, as you say. Incredibly poorly researched, actually. It's like Mr Grau doesn't know Abel's work exists.
He references Abel's stuff... barely.
However, you could create a splinter sect of the Sith that has remained hidden in other parts of the galaxy, like that of Darth Millennial and his Dark Force religion.
Really, the deficiency is in the KotOR era part. What about the New Sith Wars?
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Master-Chief-Kenobi
Registered:
Jun '07
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Date Posted:
6/22 8:21am
Subject:
RE: Fan-frigging-tastic
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This artical doesnt make any sence. Vegere is not a sith, and Lumiya being sith at all over rules George Lucas.
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Zorrixor
Registered:
Sep '04
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Date Posted:
6/22 8:25am
Subject:
RE: Fan-frigging-tastic
- Date Edited:
6/22 8:41am (3 edits total)
Edited By:
Zorrixor
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Ulicus posted:
Do not want.
You and me both.
I have no issues with Vergere being a Sith... I've thought it all along ever since I first read Traitor. But the idea Lumiya is less Sith than Vergere... 
If Lumiya isn't a real Sith I see no reason why Vergere is any better. Lumiya trained with Vader for years. Vergere had, what, weeks? Maybe a few months at best between Maul and Dooku? This is sounding far too "magic difference" based for my liking if Lumiya lacked the magic ingredient despite years of training whereas Vergere magically obtained it within a few days. It makes a complete joke out of Sith training if you actually don't need years of training but just to be given some magic spell that takes five minutes to learn.
Plus, what about the fact Lumiya spent time on Ziost, obtained King Adas's holocron and no doubt underwent tons of other Sith research during the time between ROTJ and NJO? Darth Bane himself, after all, was self-declared too. It feels as if we're going backwards to the Rule of Two being some divine dictum whereby there literally cannot be three Sith or else the Universe itself will implode. 
Sure, Lumiya never got a Darth name or officially knighted but Vergere didn't either unless next they plan to tell us Vergere had a Darth name too. Here's where I pray Starkiller slaps some sense into things and makes clear "not being official" is far less important than "how much training you've had". Vergere may be "official" but I struggle to see how she had time to ever have more training than Lumiya.
I can swallow Vergere being a real Sith and Lumiya having always had self doubt and seen herself as a pretender. That's fine. That's character development based and has nothing to do with the way the Force itself works. But for Vergere to have actually needed to train Lumiya to become a true Master just seems silly.
Besides... if the Rule of Two is truly some divine law dictated by the dark side itself that prevents Lumiya from ever having been "genuine" after Vader and Palpatine died then if Vergere was genuine by the same logic it means Dooku and Vader were pretenders like Lumiya too since Vergere was still alive as the "true" Sith apprentice.
Yeah... that's why religious adherence to it is dumb. I have no issue with Lumiya not being a proper Sith until after Endor but the idea the holocron of King Adas meant jack... just no. That's like saying Darth Bane's entire order are just pretenders because all he had was Revan's holocron. If it's good enough for Bane, its good enough for Lumiya.
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Bly
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
6/22 8:34am
Subject:
RE: Fan-frigging-tastic
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Pure, utter .
Oh, Becca, you've got yourself a convert.
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Sinrebirth
Title: EU Senate Chancellor
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
6/22 8:35am
Subject:
RE: Fan-frigging-tastic
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The_Loyal_Imperial posted:
...Well, nothing quite like erasing any and all possible ambiguity, is there?
Indeed.
Article posted:
During the Confederation-Galactic Alliance War, the Dark Lady Lumiya resurrected the Rule of Two and found herself the perfect apprentice -- the grandson of Darth Vader. Jacen Skywalker followed in his ancestor's footsteps and became Darth Caedus.
Jacen kriffing Skywalker?
Just how lazy was this?
Article posted:
Most apprenticeships conclude the day the student is willing and able to commit the ultimate act of "selflessness" and devotion to the Sith -- killing or destroying someone that he loves. This action demonstrates his embodiment of unattached strength, power, and mercilessness. For example, Darth Vader sacrificed Mace Windu and, ultimately, the Jedi Order. Darth Caedus murdered his aunt, Mara Jade Skywalker. Once this act is complete, the apprentice may take on the title of Sith Lord and his new name.
Darth Vader loved Mace Windu? I seem to recall Anakin disliked Mace. Dislike being a polite word. And since when was this Sith doctrine? Because I don't recall Lumiya ever doing this. Oh well, she's no Sith. Exar killed his teacher. Sith. Ulic killed...? Nothing he loved? Not Sith!
This should be confined to Jacen's apprenticeship. As a hook he understands. Lumiya was a psychological genius, not a generic Sith.
Article posted:
After Darth Sidious created the Galactic Empire, dissolved the Senate, and usurped control of the galaxy, he eased the Rule of Two a bit.
A bit? Well, that's about as clear as mud. More Sith? Nah. Just Dark Jedi. So, no easing? Maybe?
Woot to my first piece of continuity I'm ignoring! 
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
6/22 8:44am
Subject:
RE: Fan-frigging-tastic
- Date Edited:
6/22 8:46am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Ulicus
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Zorrixor posted:
I have no issue with Lumiya not being a proper Sith until after Endor but the idea the holocron of King Adas meant jack... just no.
This is the problem I have with the extract (I won't get into my problems with the article as a whole). Certainly, I don't like Vergere being a Sith (Sith trained? Sure, I can go with it) but what I object to the most is that she's now - apparantly - responsible for Lumiya being a Sith. It's ridiculous.
It should be a crime to write an article on the Sith without first reading Evil Never Dies twenty times, just so all the information sinks in.
Sinrebirth posted:
Woot to my first piece of continuity I'm ignoring!
And now we have proof that the world has ended.
See WotC!? SEE!? THIS IS HOW BAD IT IS!
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"They will die a death that will last millennia, until all that remains is their code, their history, and, in the end, the shell of their armor upon the shell of a man, too easily slain by Jedi"
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sabarte
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
6/22 8:46am
Subject:
RE: Fan-frigging-tastic
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There really is no room at all to fit any training of Vergere in unless she's one of Dooku's many crazy female minions. There's really no opportunity for her to be either an official or unofficial Sith apprentice.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
6/22 8:46am
Subject:
RE: Fan-frigging-tastic
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Excellence posted:
Call me a koala hugger, but what was wrong with that excerpt above?
Vergere not Sith. WotC bad.
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