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Topic:
Is The Jedi Covenant Evil?
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snelson
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
6/22 6:46pm
Subject:
Is The Jedi Covenant Evil?
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is the jc evil? i don't think all of them are q'anillia and celeste morne are good people but the others are corrupt.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
6/22 6:52pm
Subject:
RE: Is The Jedi Covenant Evil?
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snelson posted:
is the jc evil? i don't think all of them are q'anillia and celeste morne are good people but the others are corrupt.
I think that it depends strongly on your definition of evil. The Covenant's inner circle is composed of people who murdered innocent people whom were supposed to be their children for all intents and purposes. Worse, they've blamed it on an innocent men that they've hunted to the ends of the galaxy and tarred with an unspeakable crime. Feln and Raana Tey were also guilty of appalling callousness that resulted in innocent people being endangered.
I believe, as long as they're on this path, they are BAD people who deserve to be behind bars.
Some are WORSE than others but that doesn't mean they don't deserve jail time. As a note, this is only the Inner Circle of the Covenant. Haazen and Krynda weren't responsible for the Murder of the Padawans but they knew and helped cover it up, which makes them associates for the murder as well so I also mark them as bad people.
Celeste Morn and the other agents are fanatical but I wouldn't say they're evil yet. Clearly, Celeste is just a misguided servant of the Covenant like Mara Jade was.
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Mustafar_66
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
6/22 7:14pm
Subject:
RE: Is The Jedi Covenant Evil?
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Misguided and rather stupid, yes. Evil? Not so much.
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JediAlly
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
6/22 7:17pm
Subject:
RE: Is The Jedi Covenant Evil?
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Are they fanatical? Yes. Are they paranoid and filled with fear? Yes. Are they evil? I think the more important question is are any of them willing to atone for what they have done? Q'Anilia and Xamar - yes. Lucien - no. Haazen and Krynda - uncertain yet.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
6/22 7:38pm
Subject:
RE: Is The Jedi Covenant Evil?
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Mustafar_66 posted:
Misguided and rather stupid, yes. Evil? Not so much.
I suppose it boils down to this...
1. Will they kill innocent people to get the job done?
2. Will they continue to do so?
If the answer is yes, Evil they be.
You don't have to be a cackling mad villain to be a Dark Sider.
Even pretty and demure Q'Anilla has a nice spot in Chaos next to Exar Kun reserved.
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UltimateMandalore
Registered:
Sep '06
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Date Posted:
6/22 7:44pm
Subject:
RE: Is The Jedi Covenant Evil?
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They are Jedi extremists. Willing to do anything to stop the Sith from returning.
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Ren_Stazi
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
6/22 8:05pm
Subject:
RE: Is The Jedi Covenant Evil?
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They fear the Sith... and as Yoda will say thousands of years later... "Fear is the path to the dark side"...
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DarthGeist
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
6/22 8:08pm
Subject:
RE: Is The Jedi Covenant Evil?
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I think they are evil, but that it is due to misdirection. Killing your pre-teen/teen padawans? Evil. The Motivation was noble but seriously, there's a Jedi COUNCIL to deal with that. All that being said, I think some of if not all of the remaining members have the potential for good ... even Lucien.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
6/22 8:09pm
Subject:
RE: Is The Jedi Covenant Evil?
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DarthGeist posted:
I think they are evil, but that it is due to misdirection. Killing your pre-teen/teen padawans? Evil. The Motivation was noble but seriously, there's a Jedi COUNCIL to deal with that. All that being said, I think some of if not all of the remaining members have the potential for good ... even Lucien.
Honestly, I think I respect Lucien more than the others.
He's definitely LE, but at least he's not trying to back out of it now.
I have more admiration for a man whose able to do the evil he does and accept it than those who do it and then try and back out of it.
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DarthGeist
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
6/22 8:16pm
Subject:
RE: Is The Jedi Covenant Evil?
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Actually, considering what we know about Lucien, he's done everything he was RAISED to do. I predict (this is just a hypothesis now) that the REAL evil lies with Mommy dearest and their "loyal" servant (Check out the latest KOTOR cover for evidence). I think when Lucien and any surviving members are faced with this truth, they will realize how misguided and manipulated they were and will rebuke their superiors.
After that, I wouldn't be surprised if the covenant actually turns itself in and is rehabilitated (sp?)
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Nobody145
Registered:
Feb '07
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Date Posted:
6/22 8:21pm
Subject:
RE: Is The Jedi Covenant Evil?
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Yeah, while Lucien isn't nice by most definitions of the word, at least he has conviction about his cause. And while I count him as evil, as he was the one who took the initiative and authorized the Taris Padawan Massacre... at least he's still more stable than most of the other Covenant Masters. But yeah, most of them murdered their own personal Padawans for no concrete reason, and Lucien would've killed Zayne if things didn't keep crashing on top of him whenever he tried (Jarael, a ship, etc.).
Haazen's almost definitely evil, based on the hints we've seen so far, Krynda's probably close if not over the line already, as that storehouse on Odryn was pretty appalling (unless she's been isolated longer than I've thought so far), Shadows like Celeste are mostly fanatical, but based on Celeste at least, don't seem quite evil or quite as fanatical as the Taris Masters were, and as for the Taris Masters themselves, two down, with three more to go until they all face justice, in one way or another, hopefully.
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JEDI_TEEGIRLOO
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
6/22 8:29pm
Subject:
RE: Is The Jedi Covenant Evil?
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Though i haven't read all the issues, i do think that they are doing evil out of fear of the Sith returning. As Ren mentioned Fear is the path to the Darkside.
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Dawud786
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
6/22 9:38pm
Subject:
RE: Is The Jedi Covenant Evil?
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Just judging from the cover preview of a future issue of KOTOR, I'm going to say that Haazen is probably definitely evil.
As for the rest, well... Feln was so angry all the time and irrational I'm not sure how he couldn't have been on the dark side. Raana Tey seems to have realized the error of her ways prior to dying. The tentacled face dude seems more and more disenchanted with the Covenant. Lucien is so concerned with pleasing his mom he's gotta be perilously close to the dark side in his zealous believe in the righteousness of their cause. Path to hell is paved with good intentions they say.
Krynda could very well be Kreia.
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Carnage04
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
6/22 10:35pm
Subject:
RE: Is The Jedi Covenant Evil?
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DarthGeist posted:
Actually, considering what we know about Lucien, he's done everything he was RAISED to do. I predict (this is just a hypothesis now) that the REAL evil lies with Mommy dearest and their "loyal" servant (Check out the latest KOTOR cover for evidence). I think when Lucien and any surviving members are faced with this truth, they will realize how misguided and manipulated they were and will rebuke their superiors.
After that, I wouldn't be surprised if the covenant actually turns itself in and is rehabilitated (sp?)
Seriously, even if Mommy Dearest and the failed Padawan are evil that doesn't absolve the other five from their crimes.
We don't know the whole story on Krynda (I'll accept for now that Haazen is very likely evil.) or precisely what she meant by guard against the Sith. She may very well have intended them to simply be private investigators that looked for evidence of the Sith rising and turned the case over to the Jedi Council if they found it.
The EU has created a bit of an argument as to what the dark side really is, but I'm thinking back to one theme that Lucas has always stuck with. It is the "Quick and Easy" route. I think that killing Padawans qualifies as such. Do you think Luke Skywalker would have mowed down teenage Jaina, Jacen, and Anakin if he had a vision that suggested a Solo kid turned into a Sith Lord later in life? I highly doubt it.
The Covenant members had other options available to them regarding their vision. The best choice would probably be...oh...I don't know....ACTUALLY TAKING THE TIME TO TRAIN THEIR PADAWANS. But no, they are so self absorbed to the point where they were FAR too important and busy to waste their time with simple Jedi like Shad and certainly not a sub par one like Zayne. Just butcher them and be done with it.
There is a huge difference between Stupid and evil. Stupid is killing your buddy when playing around with a blaster you think is not charged. Evil is premeditated murder of innocent children.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
6/22 10:38pm
Subject:
RE: Is The Jedi Covenant Evil?
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There is a huge difference between Stupid and evil. Stupid is killing your buddy when playing around with a blaster you think is not charged. Evil is premeditated murder of innocent children.
I know people don't love the Force taking a direct hand but I honestly believe Zayne is an act of it.
It's the Force's sense of poetic justice.
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Nobody145
Registered:
Feb '07
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Date Posted:
6/22 11:49pm
Subject:
RE: Is The Jedi Covenant Evil?
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Or maybe Zayne literally is proof the Force has a sense of humor. But yeah, who better to trip up the Covenant than Zayne?
The Covenant is pretty definitely evil, what with how they killed four innocent children and would've killed Zayne if they had had the chance, and have been repeatedly trying since then. The only time Lucien wasn't trying to kill Zayne was when they had to team up to stop Adasca, and as soon as Adasca was dead, it was back to Lucien trying to get at Zayne. Lucien probably would've just tried to kill Zayne outright if it weren't for Alek being there as a potential witness, or more importantly, if Alek probably would've defended Zayne.
In light of more recent events, when Haazen found out about the Padawan Massacre, I don't think it was so much that Haazen was sad about the death of innocent Padawans, I think he was more worried about how much attention it would draw to the Covenant members to have a huge news event surrounding them, and it blew up into an even bigger news story than they had planned, with almost the entire Taris class dead and the last living Padawan branded a darkside traitor and on the run. Even if they had successfully killed all the Padawans and covered it up, then it still would've looked very suspicious, five dead Padawans, and during that Flashpoint interlude, some Council members noted that it was odd how often those five were always assigned together. Though most of that has been swept under the rug, what with Lucien's new position on the Jedi Council, again due to Haazen.
In retrospect, it probably would've been better to kill the Padawans alone on an exercise, like on the Rogue Moon, away from all civilization rather than in the Tower. Then again, maybe they were afraid with Zayne's luck, he would've gotten lost and they would've never found Zayne to confirm he was dead. Or more likely, they were all just too lazy and evil to bother going to those lengths. And yeah, Zayne's luck does make him the most... appropiate counter to the Covenant. The Covenant is made up of seers, but its kind of hard to predict Zayne's random destructive power, not to mention all the companions Zayne's accumulated over his journey. The Covenant created their own worst enemy. But that's usually how it goes in stories, especially with prophecies involved.
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