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Author	Topic: In the wake of NJO-DN-LOTF, how attached do you now get to characters?
Havac Title: Lit Mod of War Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 6/23 6:56pm Subject: RE: In the wake of NJO-DN-LOTF, how attached do you now get to characters?
	dizfactor posted: Emotional attachment, for me, has nothing to do with the length of time a character is active before dying. The classic example for me is in the final arc of Grant Morrison's run on New X-Men - he actually introduced a whole set of characters with the caption "This is the story of the Proud People and how they died," and despite their total page time of something like 3-4 pages from introduction to death, the whole thing was heartbreaking. Morrison in general is a master at supercompressed characterization like that, but overall, the point is that in my experience, it's absolutely possible to write characters who are emotionally compelling and engaging from the get-go, whereas on the other hand, you could keep a lot of characters around for a long, long time and I will never emotionally invest in them. I'm not emotionally attached to most of the post-ROTJ/YJK characters because they're flat, boring characters who are, for the most part, poorly written, not because they die too often. QFT. My attachment to characters has nothing whatsoever to do with the possibility that they might at some point die, or even that they might die soon. It has to do with whether I like the character. And that's not dependent on lifespan. I don't see why it should be. -----signature----- "Have you not yet learned, Executor, that everything I tell you is the truth?" - Vergere Recipient of Thrawn McEwok's Sexually Ambiguous Tusken Raider™ and a Special Golden Ewok™ "Reality doesn't care if you believe it." - Boba Fett
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RushinSundaws Registered: Feb '05	Date Posted: 6/23 6:59pm Subject: RE: In the wake of NJO-DN-LOTF, how attached do you now get to characters?
	I get attached to most...but I can't think of any I have been un-fond of. It does kind of suck when they kill off good minor characters who have potential to become excellent characters, like Thann Mithric. -----signature----- There is no emotion, there is peace. There is no ignorance, there is knowledge. There is no passion, there is serenity. There is no chaos, there is harmony. There is no death, there is The Force.
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sabarte Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 6/23 7:02pm Subject: RE: In the wake of NJO-DN-LOTF, how attached do you now get to characters?
	It's complicated by the fact that who characters were isn't always what they become, especially with author switches involved. In many cases, two versions of a character share barely anything but their names.
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Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 6/24 1:02am Subject: RE: In the wake of NJO-DN-LOTF, how attached do you now get to characters? - Date Edited: 6/24 1:05am (1 edits total) Edited By: Excellence
	Jedi Ben said it. I just got my Reaper's Gale paperback . . . and who knows what names Erikson has killed off. Then again, death in that series is . . . flexible. Do I care Jacen died? Why should I? He was written an utter bore for much of the NJO. Do I care Mara was killed? Why should I, she's been in a hundred stories spanning 18yrs. I don't know what that is in dog years, but that's hardly the point. I'd kill Luke any day, and wouldn't give a blink for fan displeasement. Fantastic Doctor Who episode, Blink. Seriously. His death would add new flavour to the menu, if you get my meaning, impetusing all sorts of new storylines-- no no, not the Doctor, you idiots, I'm meant Luke. Would I kill Solo? No need. He's 70. I'd retire him. He's had his day, and Antilles, Hood damn it. I'd give you fricking fresh names. Make you care for them, then kill them. Ha. But there's no point killing someone you hardly know, hardly have seen in print, is there? I didn't give a bucket of Bimm soup Dorsk 82 got shot. You've never seen him in mainstream media. But you care for Tenel Ka, the Factor, don't you, my pretties? And I'd make you think her life was in real peril . . . Hood damn it, not that ridiculous affair of Antilles soloing against TWO SQUADRONS of rockfighters. No. I am not attached to characters. Not in star wars anyway. They haven't been presented in any way I should care. You see a million laser bolts shoot at Jaina over 10yrs of reading, you sort of get indifferent to her plight. Yeah yeah, she'll make it. Always does. You know what I'm saying? But in the Malazan series . . . Onrack, Kalam (Malak spelt backward, eh?) or Trull, I'd get upset to see them go. And with Erikson it's usually unexpecetd treachery. When has star wars ever really surprised you with treachery? Want treachery! And Hood damn it don't tell me beforehand. Like telling us Project Starliner was fake pages before it was revealed to be fake. Come on. -----signature----- My utilisation of complex locution to ask what's more pathetic, fans who worship their movie actors, or the actors who couldn't give a damn, is more a reflection of my own superincumbent mental actuity than any circumscribed lexicon. Don't you agree?
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TuskenTommy Registered: Jul '06	Date Posted: 6/24 1:47am Subject: RE: In the wake of NJO-DN-LOTF, how attached do you now get to characters?
	I do get attached to the characters..But so far the only two characters that moved me with their deaths we're Palleon & Chewie.. ---Chewie's death was huge for me. Esp since Han & Chewie in The Falcon is/was my favorite chapters out of anything.. I think killing him was a mistake. There we're plenty of other ways to get us to take the threat of the Vong war seriously. Grr Salvadore! I admit i'm still not "Cool or A-ok" With Sal. I noticed many really enjoyed Han & The Ryn cruising around together because it reminded us somewhat of Hans co-pilot... Chewbacca was the kind of character who made Hans chapters better & more interesting/fun to read.. Chewie didn't talk, well not much. ---So yeah, i was attached and Chewie's death really moved me.. I was all depressed for a bit. Not on the same level of a real person dying or something like that. But as far as SW goes anyways, i was pretty bummed out... --Palleon- I started reading SW with Palleon. TTT was my 1st read. WELL, SOTE was, but i didn't read anything for years after that until i picked up TTT. And since then, post TTT, Palleon has been one of my favorites. His etiquette (holy sp! looked that up lol) has alwasy been Top-Notch. His attitute ws always possitive. Pretty much everything about him was possitive. & he was a military mastermind. NO Thrwan or Ackbar but so what, who is? nobody or atleats not many etc...So yeah i was really bummed and very tempted to spoil my slow reading friends who didn;t know his fate... --Mara Jade- I was fine with her dying. Sure i'd rather she didn't. She always seemed too much like the female Kyp but on the Grand Masters side. Hmm. I don;t think that's how i see her, but close.. I dunno. I liked her but wasn't devastated. I didn';t like her at all until her time with Anakin Solo on Dantooine. It was then that i started liking her... I thought her death was kinda weak for one so powerful. I mean- A poison dart! Maybe that's how he was able to kill her because she never woulda thought about something like that... --Yeah JediBen, i do get pretty attached to my characters. -I can't believe there are people/fans/SW EU fans who "STOPPED" READING" because they are mad, or they disagree with the way the storyline went/is going. I would never but that's because ""I'm very attached to my characters"" lol cool thread JediBen.
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Grey1 Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 6/24 6:10am Subject: RE: In the wake of NJO-DN-LOTF, how attached do you now get to characters?
	Manisphere posted: JaySkywalker01 posted: edit: in the KOTOR era, I'm already attached to Jarael and Zayne of course. If Gryph ever bites it I will probably cry.... I second that. I hadn't thought of KotOR. Yeah, Zayne, Jarael and Gryph can't die. Third. It's all about the characters, and the story wouldn't work anymore if someone was to leave the cast. And I mean, it's not like they have actors that might leave the show... Legacy is harder, because the story shows many different parties, and due to comic book length, we never stay with anyone long enough to get a clear impression. Maybe it's also if the characters have too much flaws. Cade, for example, can only be the grumpy "I don't care" bounty hunter so many times before I'll say "neither do I". Quinlan was cool, but Cade already went through too much in so little time - being Jedi, being Sith, being outlaw, being Jedi, being family guy, being outlaw... Then again, I find Galactica 2000 hardly watchable because every character I might start to like could (and will) become a stupid or evil character in the next episode. That's 3D-characters for you. As for the post-ROTJ phase? Let's say I care enough about the characters to have stopped reading their story (which is an interesting reverse-effect, if I were to analyse). As much as I like reading about them, I once said that we're at the paradoxical point where as soon as you want them to reach a happily-ever-after, every new page only brings you farther from it. Now, what about X-Wing? I think these novels were the prototype of "do I get attatched ot not". I believe it has the side effect that I tend to forget about the characters, because it was a huge cast to begin with, and some naturally stood in the background. And as soon as ships started exploding, I think I got rather distanced from it. Being younger, I automatically rooted for 'the main hero' or for 'the VIP's relative' (see Darklighter/Ackbar), but overall, in the end everyone was fair game. Theoretically, I think that it's a fair guess that killing someone in the group puts the others in real danger, but realistically, I think it can do the exact opposite if it's the wrong guy, or at the wrong time. Because then the fairy land bubble is burst for good, and you know that this idealized family on screen or page will never be at the happily-ever-after you wanted for them. See Serenity. And then see The X-Files, which killed a major recurring character at the end of season one to show that everyone was fair game - but of course we knew that Mulder and Scully were still untouchable. Only a few episodes into season two, Scully got abducted, and tension was really high - but it only worked because we knew she would come back, and she came back. And over the course of the series, no matter what the actors did, no matter how much abductions, gunshots and tight spots came into play, the "core family" still stands to do a second movie. Great thread. -----signature----- Jacen had learned that one can meet the Universe [...] with fear, or with hatred, or with despair. Or one can choose to meet it with love. Jacen had chosen. But still, he was astonished to discover that the Universe could love him back.
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The_Loyal_Imperial Title: YAHTZEE and Blackjack Host EUS Chancellor Registered: Nov '07	Date Posted: 6/24 6:53am Subject: RE: In the wake of NJO-DN-LOTF, how attached do you now get to characters?
	I think dizfactor and Havac have it right, here. After LotF and DN I've lost much of my attachment to most of the characters, but that has little to nothing to do with when or how soon they might be dying, and more to do with what has been done to the characters and how they've been written. -----signature----- Attack of the Clones was released May 16, 2002. Star Wars: Republic covered the Clone Wars starting Jan 22, 2003. What's the next big Star Wars project? Star Wars: The Clone Wars. Fall 2008.
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fanboyskywalker Registered: Apr '08	Date Posted: 6/24 10:06am Subject: RE: In the wake of NJO-DN-LOTF, how attached do you now get to characters?
	It's funny I was okay with all the deaths in NJO. But with LOTF that's when I started to look back and yearn for Anakin Solo to come back from the dead to offset all the death and dreary atmosphere with his unwavering hope and idealism. I guess it's all about how you handle it. Mara's death was fine... her character wasn't adding too much to the EU anymore and her death gave Luke and Ben a cool bond. But Jacen's was lame. It was so forced, excuse the pun. The whole turn to the dark side was unconvincing. Don't get me wrong their were some cool moments, but it didn't flow. The authors all had three different takes on "dark Jacen" ranging from angry/violent to incompetent to cold and calculating. I guess going into LOTF I cared a great deal but now I'm not really into any of the next generation characters. I like Han Solo a lot, but he's been through so much reading him is a chore because of all the baggage. Kyp is cool. Ben I like a lot. I was really attached but then with Invincible and seeing what happened to Jacen I'm... wary. Still... give me some new characters to actually care about and I'll care. The reason I liked Jacen is because he had heart and soul and actually questioned his place in the galaxy. I loved his verbal sparing sessions with Anakin over the nature of the Force. But if they are going to kill people like that I probably won't get attached. -----signature----- Obama '08 Vergere is NOT a Sith. Krayt and Lumiya are lying.
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Robimus Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 6/24 10:40am Subject: RE: In the wake of NJO-DN-LOTF, how attached do you now get to characters? - Date Edited: 6/24 10:42am (1 edits total) Edited By: Robimus
	JaySkywalker01 posted: I got really mad when I thought that Kyle Katarn had died...I literally took the book and beat it against my chair. , sorry this made me laugh because I really know the feeling, not about Katarn specifically but others. I'll say that I am still attached to the characters and always will be. I never was a big fan of Mara Jade, yet her death as written was beautifully, leaving me really feeling for Luke and Ben and wondering how they would go forward from there. Pellaeon's death was a big shock to me as I'm kinda a big fan , yet it fit with the story and I was actually happy that he died standing up for what he believed in. He was what 92/97 years old and I can't be upset at his passing, had a lot of good times with old Gilad . Of the other series I find myself incredibly invested in is the Republic Commando series. I really feel for those characters and am concerned about who will make it and who wont in Order 66. And remember Luke and the Shadows of Mindor is coming and thats Delrey as well. There is still so much oppurtunity for big three stories even if they aren't moving forward come 50 ABY. This series needs to continue moving forward and to do that we might have to say goodbye to our beloved OT characters at some point so Ben, Jaina and Allana's stories can be told. I actually care much more for the characters now that I feel they don't have a cloak of invincibility wrapped around them, than I did during the Bantam era. -----signature----- I am forever seeking the damutek of Hooley Krekk Oh, woe! Oh, misery! Oh, unhappiness. Hooley Krekk where are you?
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DarthBoba Registered: Jun '00	Date Posted: 6/24 10:51am Subject: RE: In the wake of NJO-DN-LOTF, how attached do you now get to characters?
	I got pretty irritated when it looked like Kyle was dead, too-this was the first book he'd had a major role in, iirc, and I was like "WHAT THE ****!" at that point. -----signature----- Upstate NY: First-World Country, Third-World Infrastructure.
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TuskenTommy Registered: Jul '06	Date Posted: 6/24 11:23am Subject: RE: In the wake of NJO-DN-LOTF, how attached do you now get to characters?
	I'd hate to break it to anyone but Kyle Katarn has had about 4 appearances in the books. I was soo hoping for his death.. I knew he was doomed. Seemed like when Luke was talking about the mission and who was selected to go I knew that master was finished. So i was just glad it wasn't a jedi who mattered. Like Kyp or Corran or Saba. --Maybe when Kyle does die it's done cool. So i can say that he atleast did 1 cool thing..
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Darth_Hydra Registered: May '01	Date Posted: 6/24 11:25am Subject: RE: In the wake of NJO-DN-LOTF, how attached do you now get to characters?
	Jedi Ben posted: It's been commented that Steven Erikson's Malazan sequence is an excellent series, it's also true that Erikson is known for killing off cast members unexpectedly. On the one hand, this makes for an edge of unpredictability, but there is another effect that is, perhaps, overlooked. If an author fosters such a climate, the reader may respond by lessening their emotional investment in the characters, thus the shock of a character death becomes lessened or removed entirely. DR's late EU arc, spanning some 15-20 years, has killed off a good many characters. For those of you who have remained reading, have you found your attitude or perception, in this respect, to have altered? Do you see the characters more as pieces on a board than people? Or has it gone the other way? Or no change? Please define "attached". If by attached you mean characters that I feel happy or sad about when something important in their lives happen then the answer is usuallly No as far as the novels go. Outside of the Skywalker/Solo clan the only person I've really gotten attached to is Seha Dorvald, but that might just be bcause I hope she and Ben will get together eventually. Comic book characters(mainly KOTOR and Legacy) are a different story. Most of them I care about in some way or other. On the other hand, if you mean that I get interested in certain ones and like to follow their stories then Yes. -----signature----- ANAKIN SOLO WON'T RETURN!
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sidious618 Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 6/24 1:01pm Subject: RE: In the wake of NJO-DN-LOTF, how attached do you now get to characters?
	Of course I get attached to the characters. Whether they will die or not doesn't matter to me. If they died I'm supposed to feel sad, that's part of the experience. -----signature----- But in purple, I'm stunning!- Londo Mollari, Babylon 5 Obama '08
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 6/24 1:10pm Subject: RE: In the wake of NJO-DN-LOTF, how attached do you now get to characters? - Date Edited: 6/24 1:15pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Jedi Ben
	This has thrown up much to contemplate, so in no particular order: DH, I'd say initially the first, but the thread has developed the idea of attachment and how much it fluctuates as being linked to what characterisation is done and why. (As pointed out by TLI) Equally, Havac and Diz have proposed the point that characterisation is key, if a character wins you over, you'll follow them, even to the end if it's done well enough. Sadly the EU does not have a Grant Morrison to call upon! TT, The reason I jumped off early in LOTF is that, having been reading the books since 1991, I concluded: I've had enough of seeing the characters put through the wringer. So I wouldn't say I'm not attached to the characters, I just dislike them being stuck on a hamster wheel of war. (The other element here is: Perhaps if I was the same age now as I was back then I may see it differently, but I'm not. I just found the ideas and execution unsatisfying so decided to bail.) Ex, Kind of large and heavy isn't it? The RG PB I mean. With luck I'll soon be getting Toll The Hounds - you, of course, knew I could not resist mentioning this otherwise irrelevant piece of information. Seriously though: Enjoy RG. Sid618, If the story does all it should do, you should indeed feel sad and not be hacked off the character got killed off, for you should be convinced as to the rightness of this outcome by the strenth of the story. In some cases, this has not always been so with people seeing through the illusion to conclude: X died because A wanted to kill them! To summarise: I'm intrigued in how people's perception has altered, if at all, in response to various changes or developments in the EU over the last few years. My opening post was a kick-off one, so far the evolution and development of the thread has been fascinating. -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
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sabarte Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 6/24 3:05pm Subject: RE: In the wake of NJO-DN-LOTF, how attached do you now get to characters? - Date Edited: 6/24 3:06pm (1 edits total) Edited By: sabarte
	I agree - if X dying doesn't result in a better story than X not dying, it's probably a bad idea. Which doesn't mean you should never kill characters. You can kill boatloads of characters if the story holds up. But when it doesn't, it's often obvious that people were purely killed for shock value. One thing I've noticed among fans is a jaded "Well, who are they going to kill next?" I think this is kind of a rational response to the current EU MO, but assurances they aren't going to kill anyone in this book, like we've gotten a few times, really drives the point home that these decisions aren't organic to the story but just thrown in. The issue is that there isn't an overstory for the post-ROTJ. They're making it up as they go along, and they've now pretty much destroyed the possibility of a happily ever after for the main characters, which offends some people. (Anakin's death didn't. Jacen's fall did) I've been citing the Enterprise finale a lot lately, but...yeah. That's how not to do it. Another thing is - dead characters should make room for more interesting characters. And that hasn't been happening either. There's been serious cast contraction going on.
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