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Topic:
Why did the Old Jedi Order fail?
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Suzuki_Akira
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
6/23 4:46pm
Subject:
Why did the Old Jedi Order fail?
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The key question here being, what could have been done - would have been done in a different order - to prevent Anakin's fall? For me it comes down to the fact the the Jedi Order refused to accept their imperfections and instead stigmatized and swore them off, hoping to keep them out through conditioning(hence baby snatching) and exiling different viewpoints(see: Potentium). Anakin needed a father, or at least a mother, and they gave him a mentor, older brother at best.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
6/23 4:49pm
Subject:
RE: Why did the Old Jedi Order fail?
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Suzuki_Akira posted:
The key question here being, what could have been done - would have been done in a different order - to prevent Anakin's fall? For me it comes down to the fact the the Jedi Order refused to accept their imperfections and instead stigmatized and swore them off, hoping to keep them out through conditioning(hence baby snatching) and exiling different viewpoints(see: Potentium). Anakin needed a father, or at least a mother, and they gave him a mentor, older brother at best.
Anakin's fall was predestined as long as he was unwilling to do anything more than serve his own greed and attachment. Literally, they could have allowed him a public marriage and made him a Jedi Master while rescuing his mother and he STILL would have fallen because Anakin Skywalker was a horrible human being by the time of ROTS.
Anakin had a far better father in Obi Wan Kenobi than most children could ask for who didn't grow up to be psychotic child killers.
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GS335
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
6/23 6:17pm
Subject:
RE: Why did the Old Jedi Order fail?
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Charlemagne19 posted:
Suzuki_Akira posted:
The key question here being, what could have been done - would have been done in a different order - to prevent Anakin's fall? For me it comes down to the fact the the Jedi Order refused to accept their imperfections and instead stigmatized and swore them off, hoping to keep them out through conditioning(hence baby snatching) and exiling different viewpoints(see: Potentium). Anakin needed a father, or at least a mother, and they gave him a mentor, older brother at best.
Anakin's fall was predestined as long as he was unwilling to do anything more than serve his own greed and attachment. Literally, they could have allowed him a public marriage and made him a Jedi Master while rescuing his mother and he STILL would have fallen because Anakin Skywalker was a horrible human being by the time of ROTS.
Anakin had a far better father in Obi Wan Kenobi than most children could ask for who didn't grow up to be psychotic child killers.
You realise that Shmi's death is what began Anakin's fall to the darkside, right? I think we all can agree that if Shmi didn't die, than Anakin never would've fell to the darkside. Apart of Anakin did die along with his mother.
Remember, Anakin's attachments were the root of his downfall. His lust for power and greed were only symptoms of his attachments.
He let go of all of that at the end, but it took over 20 years for Anakin to realise the error of his ways. That's what redeemed him at the end.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
6/23 6:23pm
Subject:
RE: Why did the Old Jedi Order fail?
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GS335 posted:
You realise that Shmi's death is what began Anakin's fall to the darkside, right? I think we all can agree that if Shmi didn't die, than Anakin never would've fell to the darkside. Apart of Anakin did die along with his mother.
Remember, Anakin's attachments were the root of his downfall. His lust for power and greed were only symptoms of his attachments.
He let go of all of that at the end, but it took over 20 years for Anakin to realise the error of his ways. That's what redeemed him at the end.
No I don't, in fact I outright refute it. Anakin Skywalker on Naboo was already saying to Padme that they should have a dictatorship in the Republic and receiving private lessons from Emperor Palpatine. He was moody, irritable, wore black, and reckless with a violent streak.
I don't actually even think Shmi's death did much more than highlight Anakin's already innate choice for fascism. I prefer that really. It's nice to realize that he's evil because he BELIEVES in authoritanism and intimidation rather than any personal tragedies.
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Darth-Ghost
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
6/23 6:25pm
Subject:
RE: Why did the Old Jedi Order fail?
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The failure of the old Jedi Order and the fall of Anakin Skywalker are two very different things, but are related. The Jedi were too attached to the Republic, just as Anakin was too attached to Padme.
The old Jedi Order failed because it became too close and entangled with the Old Republic, to the point of being ordered by the Supreme Chancellor to act as Generals in a war they should never have fought in, a war which ended up being a death trap for them all after Order 66.
Anakin Skywalker fell to the dark side because never learned the Jedi way of how to properly let go of attachments such as the people he loved, and was secretly married.
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Dawud786
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
6/23 6:26pm
Subject:
RE: Why did the Old Jedi Order fail?
- Date Edited:
6/23 6:26pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Dawud786
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Charlemagne19 posted:
GS335 posted:
You realise that Shmi's death is what began Anakin's fall to the darkside, right? I think we all can agree that if Shmi didn't die, than Anakin never would've fell to the darkside. Apart of Anakin did die along with his mother.
Remember, Anakin's attachments were the root of his downfall. His lust for power and greed were only symptoms of his attachments.
He let go of all of that at the end, but it took over 20 years for Anakin to realise the error of his ways. That's what redeemed him at the end.
No I don't, in fact I outright refute it. Anakin Skywalker on Naboo was already saying to Padme that they should have a dictatorship in the Republic and receiving private lessons from Emperor Palpatine. He was moody, irritable, wore black, and reckless with a violent streak.
I don't actually even think Shmi's death did much more than highlight Anakin's already innate choice for fascism. I prefer that really. It's nice to realize that he's evil because he BELIEVES in authoritanism and intimidation rather than any personal tragedies.
Hahaha. "Wore black." Funny.
Seriously, technically Anakin Skywalker's first serious brush with the dark side is Rogue Planet when he killed that Blood Carver with the Force in a fit of rage.
Anakin's fall may have been a little longer drawn out had Shmi not died on the Tusken's rack, but his arrogance and hot-headedness and obsession with power would have led to the dark side anyways. It's not so much how his mother died that's crucial to his fall, it's how he dealt with it. It's how he couldn't accept the transience of the world and the people in it that leads him to the dark side.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
6/23 6:26pm
Subject:
RE: Why did the Old Jedi Order fail?
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Darth-Ghost posted:
Anakin Skywalker fell to the dark side because never learned the Jedi way of how to properly let go of attachments such as the people he loved, and was secretly married.
Don't forget he also fell because his idea of paradise was a Stormtrooper's boot on the face of everyone.
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_Catherine_
Registered:
Jun '07
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Date Posted:
6/23 6:27pm
Subject:
RE: Why did the Old Jedi Order fail?
- Date Edited:
6/23 6:38pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
_Catherine_
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Suzuki_Akira posted:
For me it comes down to the fact the the Jedi Order refused to accept their imperfections and instead stigmatized and swore them off, hoping to keep them out through conditioning(hence baby snatching) and exiling different viewpoints(see: Potentium).
Just two things:
1) The Jedi never snatched babies.
2) The Potentium was a fundamentally wrong and corruptive philosophy that the Jedi were right to denounce. Their failing was to overlook the fundamental flaws that existed in themselves as well.
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GS335
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
6/23 6:40pm
Subject:
RE: Why did the Old Jedi Order fail?
- Date Edited:
6/23 6:50pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
GS335
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Charlemagne19 posted:
GS335 posted:
You realise that Shmi's death is what began Anakin's fall to the darkside, right? I think we all can agree that if Shmi didn't die, than Anakin never would've fell to the darkside. Apart of Anakin did die along with his mother.
Remember, Anakin's attachments were the root of his downfall. His lust for power and greed were only symptoms of his attachments.
He let go of all of that at the end, but it took over 20 years for Anakin to realise the error of his ways. That's what redeemed him at the end.
No I don't, in fact I outright refute it. Anakin Skywalker on Naboo was already saying to Padme that they should have a dictatorship in the Republic and receiving private lessons from Emperor Palpatine. He was moody, irritable, wore black, and reckless with a violent streak.
I don't actually even think Shmi's death did much more than highlight Anakin's already innate choice for fascism. I prefer that really. It's nice to realize that he's evil because he BELIEVES in authoritanism and intimidation rather than any personal tragedies.
While Anakin did not fully understand politics, that was not the reason why he fell. The true reason was his inability to let go. That was highlighted in the second and third movies. Again, his lust for power and greed were only symptoms of his attachments. Why do you think we had that scene when Anakin arrogantly said that he would one day have the power to stop people from dying? That scene alone forshadowed the events that were to come in Rots.
Anakin was not always evil. He was not born evil. He was a sweet, innocent kid in TPM who like most kids, had an innocent, naive way of looking at things. At the same time, he had an attachment towards his mother and if he was going to be trained as a Jedi, he had to let that go. While that problem was not a huge one than, it was a concern. Instead of having that problem nipped in the bud, it grew to the point where it was out of control. And we know what happened when it grew out of control in the third movie?
We all have a choice who we are going to become later in life and Anakin had that choice in Rots. Unfortunately for himself and the rest of the galaxy, he made the wrong choice.
Anakin confused compassionate love with posessive love, and that confusion cost him dearly. It took him being stuck in a suit for all those years for him to finally see the error of his ways. Remember, Luke touched that one ounce of good that was left in Anakin, which is what ultimately redeemed him at the end. Unlike his relationship with Padme, Anakin's love for his and Padme's son was pure and innocent, whereas his feelings for Padme was one of selfishness and posessiveness. Possessivenes and selfishness are symptoms of attachment, as is greed.
If Anakin's attachments were not the true reason for his fall to the darkside, than Lucas never would've played it up like he did throughout the PT. Its Lucas' story, not ours, and in his story, Anakin's inability to let go of his attachments were the root behind his fall to the darkside.
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RushinSundaws
Registered:
Feb '05
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Date Posted:
6/23 6:41pm
Subject:
RE: Why did the Old Jedi Order fail?
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They fell because they again thought the Sith extinct and did not have enough foresight into the eventuality that they would return...just like every other time the Sith returned from the ashes.
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Master-Chief-Kenobi
Registered:
Jun '07
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Date Posted:
6/23 7:24pm
Subject:
RE: Why did the Old Jedi Order fail?
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I always wonder what would have happened had Obi-wan gone back to Tattooine after TPM to buy Shimi from Watto. I guess the jedi must have a 'we dont deal with slavers' rule. But then again, Shimi was freed and lived a very good life with very good people but none of that mattered to Anikan because she wasn't with him. I wonder if Anikan ever truely understood exactly what the jedi rescued him from when they took him from his mother. Its ironic & tragic that he would go on to endorse slavery all over the galaxy.
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2Irandrura
Registered:
Jun '08
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Date Posted:
6/23 7:52pm
Subject:
RE: Why did the Old Jedi Order fail?
- Date Edited:
6/23 7:56pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
2Irandrura
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Suzuki_Akira posted:
The key question here being, what could have been done - would have been done in a different order - to prevent Anakin's fall?
It was too late by the time of TPM. You'd need serious institutional reform. Personally, I'd trace it back to the Ruusan Reformations - those things killed the Republic and the Jedi Order, or rather, put the two into a slow, lingering death that lasted a thousand years. Ironically, you can make a very serious argument that Lord Kaan was right. It was the horror of the New Sith Wars that convinced both the Republic and the Jedi Order to neuter themselves. Bane and his descendants were merely in a position to take advantage of the seeds Kaan had sown.
To prevent Anakin's fall... frankly, Anakin wasn't the key. He was important, but sooner or later the Republic and the Jedi Order would have collapsed anyway. To prevent it, well, in honesty, I don't think it could have happened without a war.
Darth-Ghost posted:
The Jedi were too attached to the Republic, just as Anakin was too attached to Padme.
That's a very good point, actually. Obi Wan got it right in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader -
Narrative text, Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader posted:
They hadn't realized that Palpatine had manipulated the war; that a Sith occupied the throne; that like everyone else, the Jedi had failed to grasp a truth that should have been evident years earlier: the Republic had never been worth fighting for.
That's the truth that eluded them. Jedi are not supposed to fight for the Republic. The Republic is a political institution, nothing more, nothing less. The Jedi are supposed to serve the Force above all else. They forgot that, and placed the Republic first. Consider also what Mace Windu had to say about a Jedi's duty -
Mace Windu, Shatterpoint posted:
Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. We fight for justice because justice is the fundamental bedrock of civilization: an unjust civilization is built upon sand. It does not long survive a storm.
At some point they managed to identify the Republic as synonymous with 'civilisation', and in doing so fought for it while failing to see that it had grown to lack that bedrock of justice. Mace made that very mistake -
Mace Windu, Revenge of the Sith (novel) posted:
The Republic is civilization. It's the only one we have.
No. The Republic was a civilisation, but after a millennium of decline, it was not worth fighting for. The Jedi failed to look at the Republic critically, and became attached to their vision of it. Compare Knights of the Old Republic II -
Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II posted:
And Revan knew that the true war is not against the Republic.
(And also what she says when you say we've got to protect the Republic in the conversation on the Ebon Hawk immediately after leaving Peragus, but I don't have that one to hand.)
Interesting, this is the same conclusion Mace Windu reached -
Narrative text, Shatterpoint posted:
The Separatists are not the true enemies of the Jedi. They are enemies of the Republic. It is the Republic which will stand or fall in the battles of the Clone War.
Even the reborn Sith are not our enemy. Not really.
Our enemy is power mistaken for justice.
Our enemy is the desperation that justifies atrocity.
The Jedi's true enemy is the jungle,
Our enemy is the darkness itself: the strangling cloud of fear and despair and anguish that this war brings with it. That is poisoning our galaxy.
The Republic was only ever incidental. Whether the Republic should be protected or not has to come down to how well the Republic serves its purpose; to create peace and justice. By the time of the Clone Wars, the Republic had manifestly failed in that. As above, I blame the Ruusan Reformations entirely, and their consequences. In part because it defanged the Republic (setting the stage for increasing regionalisation and the arising of corporate power blocs with military power of their own), but also in that it explicitly subjugated the Jedi Order to the Republic -
Darth Bane: Rule of Two posted:
"There are many good people who fear the Jedi and what they are capable of. They see the Jedi as instigators of war. You claim your actions are guided by the Force, but to those who cannot feel its presence it appears as if your order is not accountable to anyone or anything."
"And so you want the Jedi to answer to you." Farfalla sighed. "The Chancellor and the Senate "
"I want you to answer to the elected officials who represent the citizens of the Republic," Valorum declared.
And in doing so, by elevating the Republic above the will of the Force, the Jedi Order created its own downfall.
_Catherine_ posted:
1) The Jedi never snatched babies.
Yes, they did.
Admittedly the role of family in a Jedi's life is a thorny issue. The dynasty problem is important -
Destiny's Way posted:
Luke had made that choice more than once and was comfortable with the necessity. "Family makes a Jedi more of a whole person," he said.
"It makes them less than Jedi!" Vergere said. Her head swung toward Mara on the end of its long neck. "And your child is strong in the Force-that is worse!"
Mara's green eyes glittered dangerously. "And how is that, Vergere?" she asked.
"Your Ben is heir to more than your husband's name-he is Darth Vader's grandchild," Vergere said. "Three generations now of Skywalkers, all strong in the Force! This is a Jedi dynasty!"
Vergere's head swung back toward Luke. "Can't you see how governments will view this as a threat? Once it is possible for Jedi to leave their power to their children, the balance that exists between government and Jedi falls."
That is a valid concern. A Jedi political dynasty is certainly to be avoided. Yet it can be argued that the Jedi Order took it too far. Compare the Jedi Order during the Old Sith Wars -
Knights of the Old Republic: Commencement posted:
SHAD: Did I mention that since tonight's ceremony is private, the masters invited our families for the meal? Shame your folks live offworld.
ZAYNE: It's okay. They've already seen me make a fool of myself. Might as well give your family a turn.
And the Homecoming arc featured Zayne's parents prominently, and a Jedi Master immediately thought that they could use his family to influence him. I get the impression that in this era, Jedi tuition is more akin to a professional boarding school. (Though there is contradiction: Bastila in Knights of the Old Republic describes being taught the opposite, and to avoid familial attachment in a way with much more in common with the Clone War-era Jedi Order. Possibly different groups within the Jedi Order took different approaches to Jedi training.)
The problem here is attachment again. What Jedi need to do is avoid excessive attachment to their families and that dynastic problem (and really, the Skywalkers are a dynasty now. Anakin, Luke, Ben, Kol, Cade... that's a dynasty). That does not mean shutting out family entirely and having nothing to do with it. The Jedi approach to romantic love is much the same. In the name of avoiding attachment, they can make the mistake of unwittingly shunning all connections with non-Jedi, which is wrong.
GS335 posted:
Anakin confused compassionate love with posessive love, and that confusion cost him dearly.
Quite true, but I think we must also place due responsibility on the Jedi Order itself for failing to make an adequate distinction between the two and explaining it to its members. They are perhaps being too cautious - we know that the Jedi employed a graded approach to knowledge, and explained finer and finer distinctions as a student progressed -
Narrative text, Darth Bane: Rule of Two posted:
Basic treatises examining the Force were also filed in this section, though Padawans were restricted from accessing many of these works lest they misinterpret the knowledge and become corrupted.
I suspect that idea led to a failure to properly instruct padawans in the distinction between attachment and connection. They would say to avoid attachment in a completely general sense, and only once a padawan demonstrated ability to do that would they introduce more complicated concepts. The problem with that is that it can lead to a failure to teach the whole matter, causing padawans to misinterpret the Jedi Code from an early age.
RushinSundaws posted:
They fell because they again thought the Sith extinct and did not have enough foresight into the eventuality that they would return...just like every other time the Sith returned from the ashes.
No. It's easy to blame the Sith for everything, but sometimes it is the Jedi Order's own fault. They made their own mistakes. Palpatine would never have had the ability to take over the Republic if the Jedi Order had not strayed.
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dizfactor
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
6/23 7:59pm
Subject:
RE: Why did the Old Jedi Order fail?
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Suzuki_Akira posted:
Why did the Old Jedi Order fail?
They were too attached to the Republic to see what it had become, and as a result were able to be tricked into fighting an unjust war for it.
Suzuki_Akira posted:
The key question here being, what could have been done - would have been done in a different order - to prevent Anakin's fall?
Anakin's fall is a separate issue from the fall of the Republic and the OJO. Related blindspots, but separable issues.
Charlemagne19 posted:
Literally, they could have allowed him a public marriage and made him a Jedi Master while rescuing his mother and he STILL would have fallen because Anakin Skywalker was a horrible human being by the time of AOTC.
Fixed.
GS335 posted:
I think we all can agree that if Shmi didn't die, than Anakin never would've fell to the darkside.
I don't agree. Anakin was halfway there by the time the opening crawl came up on AOTC.
_Catherine_ posted:
The Jedi never snatched babies.
Yeah, they kinda did.
RushinSundaws posted:
They fell because they again thought the Sith extinct and did not have enough foresight into the eventuality that they would return...just like every other time the Sith returned from the ashes.
I think it's more that they expected that if the Sith were to come back, it would be in the same form as before, using the same tactics and such. They couldn't or wouldn't think outside the box, and so they deliberately ignored the evil right under their noses. Sidious was basically able to toss out a big figurehead Sith Lord with his big army trying to conquer the galaxy, and the Jedi took the bait.
* Evil warlord with a conquering army = something we know how to deal with
* The possibility that the Republic could itself be turned to evil = too big and scary to contemplate, hence we'll pretend it's not happening
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GenAntilles
Registered:
Jul '07
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Date Posted:
6/23 8:06pm
Subject:
RE: Why did the Old Jedi Order fail?
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The Old Jedi Order failed because they weren't communicating with the Republic enough they were to independent. The only person they answered to was the Chancellor, ocasionally they would talk to their senator buddies.
If the Jedi had checked their Clone Trooper Instruction Manuels they might have noticed Order 66 and more importantly Order 65, which called for the Clones to treat the Chancellor as a traitor and arrest him. If Mace Windu had taken the time to issue Order 65 the Clones wouldn't listen to anything Palpatine said and Order 66 would never have happend.
I also cry everytime someone suggests that the Jedi should never be generals and should never have fought in the Clone Wars. I ask what the Jedi would do when the trillions of battle droids the Confederacy had decended on the Jedi Temple? If the Jedi didn't fight, Palpatine would have conquered the Republic with the Confederacy then use the droids to hunt down the Jedi. Either way Palpatine would rule the galaxy and exterminate the Jedi.
The Jedi fell because they didn't work with the Repbulic, they did everything on their own and because of that were destroyed.
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_Catherine_
Registered:
Jun '07
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Date Posted:
6/23 8:23pm
Subject:
RE: Why did the Old Jedi Order fail?
- Date Edited:
6/23 8:31pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
_Catherine_
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2Irandrura posted:
_Catherine_ posted:
1) The Jedi never snatched babies.
Yes, they did.
People always bring up Baby Ludi to argue this point, but it's not the same issue. The Jedi do not go around kidnapping Force-strong children; that's the argument, and it's wrong by virtue of the fact that it is untrue.
The Baby Ludi incident, while deplorable, can only be argued as kidnapping retroactively. The baby's parents were missing and presumed dead, so the Jedi did the compassionate thing and adopted her into their own "family"; she was in no way "snatched." You can judge the Jedi however harshly you like for how they behaved once the baby's mother turned out to be not so dead after all, but when they initially found Ludi, they didn't kidnap her; they saved her.
dizfactor posted:
Yeah, they kinda did.
Examples, please?
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DarthBoba
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
6/23 8:32pm
Subject:
RE: Why did the Old Jedi Order fail?
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If the Jedi had checked their Clone Trooper Instruction Manuels they might have noticed Order 66 and more importantly Order 65, which called for the Clones to treat the Chancellor as a traitor and arrest him. If Mace Windu had taken the time to issue Order 65 the Clones wouldn't listen to anything Palpatine said and Order 66 would never have happend.
Order 65 was at the leisure of the Senate and Security Council-in other words...it never would've happened.
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