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Author Topic: Question about Anakin Skywalker
JediAlly 
Registered: Oct '00
6537_Green Lightsaber
Date Posted: 6/23 11:14pm Subject: Question about Anakin Skywalker
Okay. It's over three years since ROTS came out in the films and the novels. We all know one of the main reasons why Anakin fell to the dark side - fear over losing Padmé and not being powerful enough to save her, because he felt he failed to save his mother.

Here's a scenario I want to consider - suppose that never happened. Suppose Anakin never got any visions of Padmé dying. In essence, we remove Anakin's greatest fear and primary motivation. Have the rest of the movie occur the way it did, but without that key element in the plot. That being the case, I ask these two questions:

1. Would Anakin have joined Palpatine?
2. Would Anakin have turned to the dark side?


Let's start with the first question. In my opinion, I say a definite yes for two reasons. First, we have Anakin's own words from the movie:

"He looked out for me ever since I arrived. He's been a friend and mentor."

We also have this from the novel:

"You know how he's looked after me, how he's done everything he could to help me. He's like family."

Then we have Obi-Wan's words to Yoda and Mace from the novel:

"For Anakin," Obi-Wan said at length, "there is nothing more important than friendship. He is the most loyal man I have ever met - loyal beyond reason, in fact. Despite all I have tried to teach him about the sacrifices that are the heart of being a Jedi, he- he will never, I think, truly understand."
He looked over at Yoda. "Master Yoda, you and I have been close since I was a boy. An infant. Yet if ending this war one week sooner - one day sooner - were to require that I sacrifice your life, you know I would."
"As you should," Yoda said. "As I would yours, young Obi-Wan. As any Jedi would any other, in the cause of peace."
"Any Jedi," Obi-Wan said, "except Anakin."
..."I think," Obi-Wan said carefully, "that abstractions like peace don't mean much to him. He's loyal to people, not to principles. And he expects loyalty in return. He will stop at nothing to save me, for example, because he thinks I would do the same for him.
..."Because," he admitted reluctantly, "he knows I would do the same for him."
"..."I am firmly convinced that Anakin can do anything. Except betray a friend. What we have done to him today..."
"But that is what Jedi are," Mace Windu said. "That is what we have pledged ourselves to" selfless service-"
...If he asked me to spy on you, do you think I wouldn't do it?
"Yes," he said slowly. "That's why I don't think eh will ever trust us again."
..."And I'm not entirely sure he should."

As Obi-Wan began to understand at that point, Anakin established bonds with people he believed to be his friends. I think that stems back to his childhood on Tatooine as a slave. As Shmi said, "The Republic doesn't exist out here." The two of them didn't care about the principles of the Republic. They had to rely on themselves and people whom they trusted and considered friends. That stayed with him throughout his training, and it was very evident in his actions during the Clone Wars. He had his own rules on friendship, and one of them was obviously, "a friend wouldn't ask him to spy on another friend, or break another friend's trust." I think Anakin was willing to spy on Mace, Yoda, and the others for Palpatine because he had his own issues with them, but not Obi-Wan. When Obi-Wan explained the reasoning behind the Council's decision, he shattered any lingering threads of trust Anakin might have had towards the Jedi, and that might have included Obi-Wan. As far as Anakin was concerned, if it came down to choosing between Palpatine or the Jedi, he would now choose Palpatine without a doubt.


As for the second reason, let's start with this passage from the AOTC novel:

"I don't think the system works," Anakin finished, matter-of-factly.
"Really?" she replied sarcastically. "Well, how would you have it work?"
..."We need a system where the politicians sit down and discuss the problem, agree what's in the best interests of the people, and then do it," he said, as if it was perfectly simple and logical.
"Which is exactly what we do," came Padmé's unhesitating reply.
..."The trouble is that people don't always agree," she explained. "In fact, they hardly ever do."
"Then they should be made to."
That statement caught Padmé a bit off guard. Was he so convinced that he had the answers that he... ..."By whom?" she asked. "Who is going to make them?"
"I don't know," he answered, waving his hands again in obvious frustration. "Someone."
"You?"
"Of course not me!"
"But someone."
"Someone wise."
"That sounds an awful lot like a dictatorship," Padmé said...
"Well," he said calmly, "if it works."

From the movie, we have Anakin's response to Obi-Wan's announcement that the Senate was going to give Palpatine more executive powers: "Isn't that a good thing? It will allow us to end this war more quickly."

Now let's look at the realization Obi-Wan came to accept in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader:

The ideals of democracy hadn't been stamped out by Palpatine. The Jedi had carried out missions of dubious merit for any number of Supreme Chancellors, but always in the name of safeguarding the peace and justice. What they failed to understand was that the Senate, the Coruscanti, the citizens of countless worlds and star systems, grown weary of the old system, had allowed democracy to die. And in a galaxy where the goal was single-minded control from the top, and wherein the end justified the means, the Jedi had no place.

It's obvious from the novels and movies that Anakin didn't care for politics and for most politicians in general. He had grown sick and tired of the countless debates and meetings that, to him, prolonged the problems rather than found the solutions to them. That was definitely so in ROTS, where it was evident he was sick of the war and wanted it to end so he could be with Padmé again. To him, that meant killing Grievous and the Separatist council, not engage in debates and peace negotiations like Padmé wanted. When Anakin had that debate with Padmé in AOTC, I don't think he realized that what he said was exactly how he felt about democracy. When he stood by Palpatine while Padmé and the others presented their positions, I think he made clear to Padmé he preferred Palpatine's methods to hers. He got tired of things not getting done, and that the injustices he saw in the galaxy weren't addressed. To him, the methods of resolving these problems didn't matter so long as they got solved. Period. He saw Palpatine's methods as being the way to solve the problems once and for all.


Which leaves us now with my second question: would he have turned to the dark side? I think eventually, yes. But he would have taken a very different path than he did. I think at first, his demeanor, temperament, and views might have been similar to Mara's and Maarek Stele. But as time went on, and he began carrying out more and more of Palpatine's orders, he would have been drawn further and further into the dark side until he turned. He would have become a Dark Jedi before becoming a Sith.


So one could say that from a point of view, given how Anakin saw and felt about things, he would have eventually turned to the dark side. It would almost seem inevitable. His visions of Padmé's death and fear of those visions becoming a reality accelerated the process.

So what are your opinions? Agree? Disagree?

 

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DarthBoba 
Registered: Jun '00
8187_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 6/23 11:23pm Subject: RE: Question about Anakin Skywalker
That's a pretty good case. But, without the significant impetus of Padme dying (and probably very very soon) I don't think Anakin would have felt a need to turn.

Look:

Anakin had already touched the Dark Side on several occasions before ROTS, in both the EU and AOTC. He wasn't particularly twisted or evil; indeed, Kenobi considered him an exceptional Jedi. Granted, with some fairly unpleasant character flaws, but certainly not a Sith Lord.

And notice his first reaction to finding out Palpatine is Sidious: his first reaction is to kill him. Without the threat against Padme's life, I think he would have done exactly that-Anakin's whole reason for saving Sidious in ROTS is that he has knowledge that can save Padme. Look at Palpatine's little pre-recruitment speech in the Opera-at first, he tries to tell Anakin that the Jedi and Sith are almost exactly the same, and that the Jedi are corrupted by their power. And look where Palpatine gets: Absolutely nowhere. It's only when Palpatine brings up Plagueis' ability to stop others from dying that Anakin becomes interested.

And I don't think Anakin's exceptional dislike of the Senate would necessarily lead him to being Vader, either. I suspect they may have eventually led him out of the Order if things hadn't changed, but his personal opinion of the Senate seemed to take a backseat to being a Jedi as a general rule.



 

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JediAlly 
Registered: Oct '00
6537_Green Lightsaber
Date Posted: 6/23 11:38pm Subject: RE: Question about Anakin Skywalker
I hear what you're saying DarthBoba. I get the feeling that all Anakin really wanted in ROTS was to just get out of the spotlight. That was even hinted at on several occasions in the novel, and I think he even hinted that in the movie when he told Padmé not to put him in the position of speaking to Palpatine on her behalf to end the war. He got tired of everyone pulling his strings. I think if he had the choice of saying the following to the Jedi and Palpatine: "I've had it with everyone asking for everything from me. I'm leaving you, the Order, and the Republic. I'm taking my wife Padmé somewhere where you all don't matter, and we're going to raise our kid together. And I'm going to teach our child the ways of the Force, and if anyone come to take our child away, I'll do whatever it takes to stop that from happening, no matter what it takes", I think he would have.

In fact, he did have that choice on Mustafar, but he was too far gone by then. Had Padmé made that plea much sooner, before Anakin turned to the dark side, Anakin might have gone, and in so doing would have thrown a planet-sized wrench into Palpatine's plans.

 

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DarthBoba 
Registered: Jun '00
8187_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 6/23 11:53pm Subject: RE: Question about Anakin Skywalker
More like a lightsabre-sized hole in Palpatine's chest. wink

But yeah, Anakin being 1) alive and 2) not on Palpatine's side would've wrecked things quite badly even if he remained neutral. He'd always be a threat, wherever he was, and growing stronger and stronger, with his kids to train to boot. And his children were just as powerful as he was...you wanna talk about a nightmare for Palpatine, that's it tongue

 

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Nobody145 
Registered: Feb '07
42495_Zayne
Date Posted: 6/24 12:12am Subject: RE: Question about Anakin Skywalker
I think by Episode III Anakin's a bit too far gone to so easily avoid falling though. The constant dream-visions of Padme dying, and worse, Padme dying with Obi-wan at her side but Anakin nowhere in sight, was what really drove Anakin for most of RotS, but... Palpatine had been quietly steering Anakin towards the darkside for years by then. Anakin chose to kill Dooku in cold blood, and while Anakin said afterwards that it was wrong to kill Dooku like that, he never told Obi-wan, probably like how he never told Obi-wan about slaughtering all those Tuskans. Anakin did tell Palpatine about the Tuskans though, so Palpatine already had a slight edge over Obi-wan in terms of influence over Anakin. Palpatine was the kindly uncle figure that Anakin could confide in, while Obi-wan was the sterner father and older brother figure, so Anakin told him less stuff, but he was still close to both. But while Obi-wan blames himself for failing Anakin, he and Anakin did have a very strong bond, so much so that, in the novel at least, Obi-wan being sent to kill Grevious was part of Palpatine's plan, if only to temporarily stop him from being a positive influence on Anakin. Anakin has always had issues with family, it extends back to when he left his mother in Episode I, and those issues just got worse after getting to his mother at the last second, right before she dies. While the dreams about Padme made Anakin much more unstable, Anakin has probably feared losing Padme ever since he gotten her, another thing Palpatine used to manipulate Anakin, as he knew about their secret marriage. Obi-wan knew about Anakin's... romance with Padme, if not about the official marriage, but Obi-wan ignored it for Anakin's sake at least, since Anakin's not very good at subtlety.

And like the OP said, Anakin has... control issues too. Its arguable they stem from his somewhat traumatic childhood, as he spent most of it as a slave, but it also probably ties into the little control Anakin's had over his life- first he was a slave, then he was training to be a Jedi, but he couldn't see his mother, and then his mother died, and Anakin could do nothing about it. And while Anakin loved Padme... he was obsessive about her too, so much so that he ended up Force-choking her at one point. Although afterwards, after his surgery, when he was calmer, Vader did ask about her first, but it was already too late.

In answer to the questions, hm... when Anakin chopped off Mace's arm, he wasn't choosing between the Jedi and Palpatine, he was choosing between everything else and Padme. Palpatine could've dangled the mystical Sith healing powers of Darth Plaeguis before Anakin at any time, so if it came down to the Jedi vs. Palpatine, as it inevitably would, Palpatine was very good at reading people, so he probably would've already baited Anakin with those healing powers, so Anakin would already be tempted. This is all hypothetical, so its hard to guess if Anakin would've gone for that, the power of immortality, the ability to stop anybody from dying, ever, at that point without visions about a dying Padme, but I think he would have anyway, given his mother's horrible death still haunted him.

As for the second question... well, mainly its the same thing as the first question. Joining Palpatine meant turning to the darkside, joining Palpatine against the Jedi, and even if Anakin deluded himself, he still would've fallen by that point. What I mean is that Anakin's been slowly falling for most of the Clone Wars, with how often he's killed Asajj Ventress for instance (tossing her off edges for instance, though she kept coming back, like some annoying cockroach that you just can't kill ever) and the occasional Force choke on some people (Jabiim I think), not to mention all the horrors and traumas of war inflicted on a young man.

There's also the whole destiny thing and all, though it also all comes down to choice and flaws- Anakin couldn't bare to risk losing Padme, which is why he sided with Paplatine, for special healing techniques that could save Pamde in the event of her being stricken by something. The visions just made it that much more of a priority, given that the last time Anakin had visions about a person dying, they came true, and he was just too late to save his mother. Anakin could've turned back, and just somehow cope with losing Padme, but he couldn't. After he lost her, he thought his life was over, so he just went on as Palpatine's apprentice, but the Emperor never had Vader's absolute loyalty. And its never quite too late, as give or take 20 years later, Anakin finally turns away from the darkside. Its just usually very rare, that kind of event.

 

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Carnage04 
Registered: Mar '05
43718_Darth Nihl
Date Posted: 6/24 12:47am Subject: RE: Question about Anakin Skywalker


Absolutely not. I think the Novelization shows off the reasons a bit better than the movie. You'll have to bear with me a bit because I don't have the novel handy.

First, I always felt that the true beginning of the end took place right after the theater scene. Anakin goes off to the Jedi Temple to do some meditation to try to find a way to save Padme. Following some ideas that Palpatine had given him, he chooses to "Look inward" instead of extended his senses around to get insight from the force. I think it's heavily implied that this is a dangerous way to meditate.

Second, by the time that Palpatine reveals himself, Anakin is in no condition to make any judgement calls whatsoever. He's been running around for days without sleeping and possibly without eating or drinking. He's an absolute mess. He can't think straight at all. Have you ever gone through a time where you did not sleep for more than 36 hours with lack of food? You can start believing/thinking some really deranged things after awhile. Anakin was NOT at his best at this point.

Third, we have the concept of friendship. Anakin felt alienated by the Council and even Obi-Wan because he was being introduced to the concept of betrayal. Finding out that Palpatine had lied to him for a long time certainly is something that would make Anakin drop his loyalties to the man. Palpatine had to have another card up his sleeve.....he did. Even with that card, Anakin began doing the right thing by going and telling Mace Windu what the story was. Only after really contemplating the situation did Anakin decide he needed to get to the battle before Palpatine was killed. No way would he have ran from the Temple back to the Chancellor's office if it were not for Padme.

 

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DarthMonkey321 
Registered: Jun '08
Date Posted: 6/24 3:03am Subject: RE: Question about Anakin Skywalker
So basically, it's all Natalie Portman's fault... I shoulda known! wink

 
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Charlemagne19 
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 6/24 3:35am Subject: RE: Question about Anakin Skywalker
Jedi Ally posted:


1. Would Anakin have joined Palpatine?

2. Would Anakin have turned to the dark side?


The future is a human face underneath a Stormtrooper's boot and Anakin Skywalker is the man wearing it. I tend to think that even were Padme and Shmi to live, the simple fact is that Anakin Skywalker is a Space Nazi. He believes in Space Nazism. He loves the idea of a military dictatorship and the idea of grinding the spirit of the enemy into nothing after wiping them out on the battlefield.

It would take longer for Palpatine to break his ties with the Jedi but he's been working on it for 12 years by this point.

 

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