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Topic:
Who was right about the force??
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Darth-Ghost
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
6/26 2:00pm
Subject:
RE: Who was right about the force??
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Manisphere posted:
Ulicus posted:
Arawn_Fenn posted:
Vergere was canonically a Sith.
Vergere is canonically a Sith now, you mean? 
It may be canon, but it doesn't make sense goshdarnit!
I can see why many weren't thrilled to have Vergere a Palpatine apprentice but how is it out of order with anything she taught Jacen? Yeah, it was more interesting during the NJO for her to be such an enigma but she was dark. There was no missing that.
http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b10003/28306495/p1
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Grey1
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
6/26 2:20pm
Subject:
RE: Who was right about the force??
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2Irandrura posted:
A shame that The Powers That Publish got so confused about that as to misinterpret it and fall to the dark side.
Fixed that.
Who's got it? The Jedi who's in a story that needs him to have gotten it. No matter what era he's in.
It's funny how so many people are rooting for Luke. Of course he should be the one who got things right, he's the ultimate hero of the SW saga, after all. But seeing how many people with many different viewpoints - most of which presumably never strayed into the fields of philosophy and spirituality that much - got their hands on writing him and his diversified workforce, you can't really paint him as a wise man. It'a no coincidence that he developed the nickname 'farmboy' only in recent years. The Yavin Bunch has made many mistakes, most of which get excused with the fact that they do not even know basic stuff of the flawed Old Jedi Order.
The division into eras is also a bit pointless, as eras tend to get muddled content-wise. LOTF and the KOTOR games took large steps into forming a Jedi Order that casual consumers would recognize from That Recent Movie. Just look at the robe development.
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Jacen had learned that one can meet the Universe [...] with fear, or with hatred, or with despair.
Or one can choose to meet it with love.
Jacen had chosen.
But still, he was astonished to discover that the Universe could love him back.
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
6/26 2:28pm
Subject:
RE: Who was right about the force??
- Date Edited:
6/26 2:28pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Ulicus
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Manisphere posted:
Yeah, it was more interesting during the NJO for her to be such an enigma but she was dark. There was no missing that.
She wasn't "dark-as-in-darksider", though, nor was she ever intended to be. Shady? Sure. Mysterious? Sure.
Dark-sided? No.
Allow me to quote Havac, from the first page of the "Vergere: Separating the Truth From the Lies" thread that Ghost just linked to:
Havac posted:
One interesting point I stumbled on while rereading SbS that I don't think anyone else has brought up: there's a scene where Tsavong Lah and Vergere are talking in the middle of a religious ceremony. The priest is killing a prisoner, cutting out his guts. Vergere looks at him, and suddenly the sacrifice is at peace, calm, doesn't appear to be feeling any pain. It's clear in retrospect that she used the Force to soothe his pain and put him at peace as he died. Now, if she were a Sith just out to corrupt Jacen, why would she do this? There's no one around to see her do it, no one she could impress by doing it. No one ever knows. She gets no benefit by it. It's a purely selfless action, done to help another sentient for no reward.
I really wish people would read the books sometime before buying into "Vergere is a Sith!" arguments.
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TuskenTommy
Registered:
Jul '06
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Date Posted:
6/26 2:30pm
Subject:
RE: Who was right about the force??
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It's now cannon that Vergere is sith? Not in my book...Man, they chickened out & messed up a great character...I'm just gonna pretend then that she was a jedi w/ 50 years alone to contemplate & her only ally/friend was the force....
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Manisphere
Registered:
Aug '07
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Date Posted:
6/26 2:31pm
Subject:
RE: Who was right about the force??
- Date Edited:
6/26 2:32pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Manisphere
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Ulicus posted:
Manisphere posted:
Yeah, it was more interesting during the NJO for her to be such an enigma but she was dark. There was no missing that.
She wasn't "dark-as-in-darksider", though, nor was she ever intended to be. Shady? Sure. Mysterious? Sure.
Dark-sided? No.
Allow me to quote Havac, from the first page of the "Vergere: Separating the Truth From the Lies" thread that Ghost just linked to:
Havac posted:
One interesting point I stumbled on while rereading SbS that I don't think anyone else has brought up: there's a scene where Tsavong Lah and Vergere are talking in the middle of a religious ceremony. The priest is killing a prisoner, cutting out his guts. Vergere looks at him, and suddenly the sacrifice is at peace, calm, doesn't appear to be feeling any pain. It's clear in retrospect that she used the Force to soothe his pain and put him at peace as he died. Now, if she were a Sith just out to corrupt Jacen, why would she do this? There's no one around to see her do it, no one she could impress by doing it. No one ever knows. She gets no benefit by it. It's a purely selfless action, done to help another sentient for no reward.
I really wish people would read the books sometime before buying into "Vergere is a Sith!" arguments.
I was just catching up on that thread. When you mow through the NJO in like 3 weeks one tends to forget a lot. 
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NelanisGhost
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
6/26 2:33pm
Subject:
RE: Who was right about the force??
- Date Edited:
6/26 2:38pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
NelanisGhost
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I think Matt Stover got it right. The Jedi aren't supposed to fight in wars. War is the darkside. Any Jedi engaged in war is steeped int he darkside. For what is war but fear, terror, aggressions, hatred? The Jedi aren't objective enough. It's not about family, it's that the Jedi are too close to power, and to corporatism.
The governments always seem to spin out of control quickly, due to pure avarice and the Senate is full of self serving weaklings. The Jedi are always losing because while their skills are always sought to be exploited, they aren't appreciated. The Jedi know too much, see too much. They are only useful in the eyes of the government for GAIN, not maintenance. These greedy slobs all want the Jedi to disappear once they have helped a position to be secured (like Omas), then they should "go away", not monitor you so closely.
Is it a Jedi's job to instill right and wrong into the masses? Morality? They can't do that.
So the question is invalid because it's not being asked of the right group. It's the weak public that wants to babysat instead of led that has allowed the corruption. They go whichever way the wind blows. They are cowards and all this foolishness could be over in a minute. But that would require some effort. The real problem is that the government/galaxy is way too large to be governed at all.
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Carrie Fisher wasn't a "man in a dress", as some horrid poster said: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LawSg5TSIpo&feature=related
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Darth-Ghost
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
6/26 2:38pm
Subject:
RE: Who was right about the force??
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On the topic, I think the NJO of the Legacy comics seem closest to how I always imagined how the Jedi should act.
They are mindful and focus on the Living Force, and don't have their heads in the future while missing what's in front of their faces, like the old Jedi Order was.
They also seem to have finally gotten some form of independence from the Galactic Alliance, which I thought their close involvement was a mistake to begin with and was one of the messages of the prequels. The Jedi of this time are again focusing on the will of the Force, rather than being the special forces military division of any government.
They also seem to have learned from what I saw as flaws during the time of Darth Caedus and the Second Galactic Civil War, having revised not only their involvement with the government but also their reluctance to take life. The early NJO had become too brutal after the Yuuzhan Vong, and didn't seemed troubled in authorizing kill missions for Dark Jedi or Darth Caedus. They seem to have cleared this up in the following decades, with their reaction to Cade's assassination plan.
So all together, the Legacy Jedi definitely seem to be closest to "being right" about the Force, in my opinion.
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Manisphere
Registered:
Aug '07
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Date Posted:
6/26 3:16pm
Subject:
RE: Who was right about the force??
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Darth-Ghost posted:
On the topic, I think the NJO of the Legacy comics seem closest to how I always imagined how the Jedi should act.
They are mindful and focus on the Living Force, and don't have their heads in the future while missing what's in front of their faces, like the old Jedi Order was.
They also seem to have finally gotten some form of independence from the Galactic Alliance, which I thought their close involvement was a mistake to begin with and was one of the messages of the prequels. The Jedi of this time are again focusing on the will of the Force, rather than being the special forces military division of any government.
They also seem to have learned from what I saw as flaws during the time of Darth Caedus and the Second Galactic Civil War, having revised not only their involvement with the government but also their reluctance to take life. The early NJO had become too brutal after the Yuuzhan Vong, and didn't seemed troubled in authorizing kill missions for Dark Jedi or Darth Caedus. They seem to have cleared this up in the following decades, with their reaction to Cade's assassination plan.
So all together, the Legacy Jedi definitely seem to be closest to "being right" about the Force, in my opinion.
I tend to partly agree but even "getting it right" clearly can't mean you can stave off The Sith. And if "Sith Happens" is an inevitability no matter what the order I have to ask what if any of the Jedi Orders got it all that wrong? The Jedi of OJO and the pre-Bane Jedi seem to be the most clued out with the arrogance problem. But then, the Legacy era Jedi also missed a few hundred Sith milling about with impending doom. I think you have to consider being right about the Force has nothing to do with fighting Sith and everything to do with anything else.
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Manisphere
Registered:
Aug '07
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Date Posted:
6/26 3:18pm
Subject:
RE: Who was right about the force??
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NelanisGhost posted:
So the question is invalid because it's not being asked of the right group. It's the weak public that wants to babysat instead of led that has allowed the corruption. They go whichever way the wind blows. They are cowards and all this foolishness could be over in a minute. But that would require some effort. The real problem is that the government/galaxy is way too large to be governed at all.
I heartily agree. I missed Nelanis quote in my above post.
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UltimateMandalore
Registered:
Sep '06
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Date Posted:
6/26 4:31pm
Subject:
RE: Who was right about the force??
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2Irandrura posted:
[quote=UltimateMandalore]I just finished Betrayal and that is kind of what upset me. They made that kind of reasoning reserved for the Sith, even though it should be a very Jedi thing to do. The Jedi believe in preserving life right? So it should be a good thing to save billions even though it means killing a few, or even one person.
The ends do not justify the means. That is the path to the dark side.
The ends perfectly justify the means. Either you kill one, or you willingly let billions die. It would only lead you to the dark side if you killed for personal gain, rather than saving someone.
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sabarte
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
6/26 5:23pm
Subject:
RE: Who was right about the force??
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Yeah, the Jedi, like everyone, believe the ends do justify the means to an extent. Actually, Qui-Gon goes into this a bit in Aurorient Express.
It's obvious they do, because if they believed the ends never justified the means, they'd wouldn't kill anyone ever. Or lie to people about their parents. Or cheat when gambling. Etc.
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Darth-Ghost
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
6/26 5:32pm
Subject:
RE: Who was right about the force??
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Like Luke said, sometimes the ends justify the means, but when you make a philosophy out of it it becomes a philosophy of evil.
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2Irandrura
Registered:
Jun '08
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Date Posted:
6/26 6:15pm
Subject:
RE: Who was right about the force??
- Date Edited:
6/28 8:11pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
Havac
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
The Force itself is created by life, including sentient beings. Thus the dark side is a part of the Force.
Yet the Force is not simply a reflection of life. It is a thing in and of itself, is it not?
Arawn_Fenn posted:
Words refer to things. The dark side exists. The metaphor is in the use of the word "dark".
Glad you agree.
Arawn_Fenn posted:
A shame the public got so confused. Vergere was canonically a Sith.
No, Lumiya is canonically lying scum who never met Vergere and doesn't have the first idea about her teachings. Lumiya's story is blatantly inconsistent with Vergere's actions, which frequently show great altruism. Remember, Lumiya was trying to corrupt Jacen, and as the whole LotF series amply shows, her talk about selfless Sith was utter nonsense. Look at her claims -
Betrayal posted:
"Now. Vergere. A Jedi, but one who was quietly resentful of the hidebound ways of the old Jedi Council, its resistance to any learning outside the rote procedures that had been part of the order for so long. She was a rogue student of the Force, of techniques and pathways that are not all part of the Jedi school. You agree?"
Jacen nodded.
"In her investigations, she studies Count Dooku, and his trail leads her to Darth Sidious, who has just taken Dooku as apprentice. Darth Sidious, who, the galaxy learns decades later, is Palpatine. Sidious accepts her as a student and candidate. There can be only two Sith at any time, the Master and the apprentice, but there can be many candidates, and she is one."
"Proof," Jacen said.
"You'll find the proof in your feelings."
Apart from including a rather dramatic lack of proof, this is inconsistent with Thracia Cho Leem's familiarity with Vergere -
Thracia Cho Leem, Rogue Planet posted:
Vergere was my most able apprentice. I was with her from the time she was an infant fresh from her egg.
You will also notice Vergere, in Rogue Planet, acting in a consistently non-Sith-like manner. Even if she did learn from Palpatine (even though there is nothing to indicate that she was the rebel Lumiya describes; certainly the other Jedi in Rogue Planet seem to think Vergere was a fine, upstanding Jedi (note the consistency I identified between Vergere's teachings on the dark side and those mentioned by Barriss Offee in particular; also note that according to Sue Rostoni, in the NJO Vergere was intended to serve as 'a bridge back to the earlier Jedi', which would be impossible if she were so unorthodox as to be heretical). Perhaps her teachings have more in common with those of the Old Jedi Order than you'd like to believe.)... but even if she learned from Palpatine, she remains clearly not a follower of the dark side, and as such any hypothetical apprenticeship to Palpatine cannot be considered relevant to the truth of her teachings.
EDIT: Wait, hang on. Claws of the Dragon. Pants it. The point still stands, though. Even granting that, learning from a Sith does not automatically make you Sith yourself, particularly as Vergere's philosophy is distinctly non-Sith.
[quote][/quote]
Arawn_Fenn posted:
Who was right about the Force? Lucas!
Frankly, George Lucas is among the most mediocre writers of Star Wars when it comes to the Force and Force philosophy. I personally like to focus more on better-written and more developed works, G-canon be damned.
rumsmuggler posted:
There was a Sith cult based on Korriban in Jedi Academy and it is canon, whether you like it or not.
Just as for George Lucas and the Force, just because a thing is canon doesn't mean it's not also stupid. 
Manisphere posted:
Yeah, it was more interesting during the NJO for her to be such an enigma but she was dark. There was no missing that.
There is a difference between 'dark' and 'dark side of the Force'. Vergere was an unorthodox teacher, certainly, and her means were morally ambiguous (re: using torture to teach philosophy), but I fail to see what that really tells us about her teachings. Vergere herself was not a saint, but what's most important is what she taught. Or what the student learnt, as she might correct us.
Grey1 posted:
Who's got it? The Jedi who's in a story that needs him to have gotten it. No matter what era he's in.
Of course, you're correct that there's no era distinction. Many Jedi may have grasped the truth at different times. I merely think Vergere is a particularly good articulation of it (as she gets an entire book to herself to teach in). Certainly others have also got it.
NelanisGhost posted:
The Jedi aren't supposed to fight in wars. War is the darkside. Any Jedi engaged in war is steeped int he darkside. For what is war but fear, terror, aggressions, hatred?
No. War is just an event, and as such is neutral with regard to the Force. Jedi can fight in wars, and indeed sometimes must fight in wars. But a person can fight in a war without submitting to their fear, terror, aggression, and hatred. That's the real war.
Darth-Ghost posted:
On the topic, I think the NJO of the Legacy comics seem closest to how I always imagined how the Jedi should act.
They are mindful and focus on the Living Force, and don't have their heads in the future while missing what's in front of their faces, like the old Jedi Order was.
Oh, aye. From what we've seen of the Legacy Jedi so far, I would say that they seem to have done quite well, so I agree with you there. (Though in regards to Manisphere's point, I should qualify that; the Jedi of the Hidden Temple moreso than the Jedi of Ossus who were wiped out by the New Sith Order.)
UltimateMandalore posted:
The ends perfectly justify the means. Either you kill one, or you willingly let billions die. It would only lead you to the dark side if you killed for personal gain, rather than saving someone.
You cannot turn that into a rule, though. Darth-Ghost is entirely correct.
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darth_Boba
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
6/26 6:22pm
Subject:
RE: Who was right about the force??
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Jedi_Master_Luc posted:
George Lucas cares NOTHING for the SW EU save what he personally puts into it. At least that's the impression i get from him. I don't understand how he can be so dismissive. Yes he created it. I know that without his insight, we'd not have a GFFA to complain about. But he could have said "Star Wars is mine and i'm the only one who can play in that world" and we'd have been alright. Starved for new material maybe, but alright on the whole. Instead, he gave away rights (well SOLD rights i'm sure) to publishings houses and game manufactuers to flesh out the skeleton he formed. However, he consistantly ignores the hard work and (sometimes) creative brilliance that has come from what he started. At this point, GL ought to see himself as the father of SW, not its god. And if he can't play nice with everyone else, he ought to (and i hate to say it) take his toys home and play by himself until he can learn how to share.
Stan Lee created Spider-Man and currently writes a daily Spider-Man newspaper comic strip.
Other people write other Spider-Man comics and other people make Spider-Man movies that are completely unrelated to Stan's newspaper strip.
Stan Lee ignores what's being done in those other mediums when writing his comic and tells the story he wants to tell.
Should Stan Lee ban everyone else from making Spider-Man because of that?
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rumsmuggler
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
6/26 6:23pm
Subject:
RE: Who was right about the force??
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2Irandrura posted:
rumsmuggler posted:
There was a Sith cult based on Korriban in Jedi Academy and it is canon, whether you like it or not.
Just as for George Lucas and the Force, just because a thing is canon doesn't mean it's not also stupid.
If that is your opinion, then more power to you. 
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" Conan, what's best in life?" " Crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentations of the women."
W.W.L.D. What Would Lando Do
"Why is the rum always gone?"
Retcons = making the dumb stuff look even dumber.
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