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Topic:
Jacen Solo's actions justified?
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TIEPilot051999
Registered:
Mar '02
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Date Posted:
7/6 8:19am
Subject:
RE: Jacen Solo's actions justified?
- Date Edited:
7/6 8:23am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
TIEPilot051999
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UltimateMandalore posted:
Even if it saves lives?
Except it doesn't. If there's one thing torture doesn't do, it's get people to tell the truth.
And I have to agree with what Master-Chief-Kenobi said. The galaxy was doing pretty well for itself after the Vong war. The whole reason why there was a Confederation/Alliance war was to have a Confederation/Alliance war. The galaxy at the start of The Joiner King is more or less the same one at the end of Invincible. Minus, of course, Mara, Isolder, and a bunch of tertiary characters most of us couldn't give two you-know-what's about.
dizfactor posted:
But we don't know how long that state of affairs might have lasted.
That's the point, though. Things could have worked out for the best had Jacen not decided to play God and do what he wanted and damned be anyone who got in his way. But because the point of the last few books was to make him the most unlikable person in the EU, we'll never know for sure, will we?
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Master-Chief-Kenobi
Registered:
Jun '07
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Date Posted:
7/6 8:47am
Subject:
RE: Jacen Solo's actions justified?
- Date Edited:
7/6 8:53am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Master-Chief-Kenobi
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dizfactor posted:
Master-Chief-Kenobi posted:
Jacen personally instigated & forced the very war he fought to end.
We don't know that. Perhaps the 2nd Galactic Civil War was significantly less nasty than the war that would have eventually taken place had the galaxy not been able to use Jacen as a point to rally against. He may have prevented a big war later at the cost of a small war now.
We do know that. Lumiya worked behind the scenes to push the Confederation much closer to war & violence then they would have ever gone on their own and Jacen used his star power to kill any and all attempts at a peaceful solution, many times. There was no war without Lumiya & Jacen. Why do you think it stopped so suddenly the isntant Jacen was dead? He was the ONLY person in the galaxy keeping the war on. If Jacen never came to lead GAG then the war would never have happened. After the first 2-3 books Corellia was mostly an innocent victim acting in self-defence in the face of an evil & oppressive Galactic Alliance who would not stop fighting until Corellia lay in ruins & its civilian popualtion extinct.
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Nishka
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
7/6 8:48am
Subject:
RE: Jacen Solo's actions justified?
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The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Jacen's fear and anger helped bring about the very instability and darkness he saw in his visions. Much like the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker. Jacen's so called "sacrafice" was an uneccessary one.
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Jedi Ben
Registered:
Jul '99
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Date Posted:
7/6 10:52am
Subject:
RE: Jacen Solo's actions justified?
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Rogue_Follower posted:
Except that most people, while under torture, will confess to anything to make it stop. It's unreliable, besides the (very important) ethical issue.
Yep, not to mention - how do you know the terrorist you've got really knows where the bomb is? Often a cell system will be used to prevent such situations arising, thus the example becomes 1 person to build the bomb, another to plant it. The chances of you being able to capture the right one person says you not only already know that there's a plot, but the people behind it which often isn't so. There are more effective forms of coercion such as; Co-operate and you live, don't and you die. It all depends on what sentence is opted for.
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overwhelming, for even should we fail -
should we fall - we will know that we have lived."
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Manisphere
Registered:
Aug '07
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Date Posted:
7/6 11:32am
Subject:
RE: Jacen Solo's actions justified?
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UltimateMandalore posted:
So, after all Jacen Solo has done to bring peace to the galaxy, were his actions justified? Torturing terrorist and Killing Mara are among these actions. But in doing so, he brought peace to the galaxy, and as far a we know, there wasn't a major galaxy-wide war until 127 ABY with the Sith-Imperial War. So were his actions justified? Did he do what was necessary? Also, why did Jacen think that he needed to go to the dark side to bring peace? He could have done it by staying in the light side.
Short answer, no. Long answer: As Santayana said, "Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it." Well, the GFFA is full deliberate historical ignorance. If I were to defend Jacen or Caedus' actions I would be saying the ends justify the means. Jacen thought they did as did his grandfather. That isn't the Jedi way and it really doesn't work on Earth either.
Why did he choose the Dark Side to bring peace? Don't all Sith Lords do that? In the end I truly believe that Jacen was a weak man. A man of little character and a bent moral compass. He chose the quick and easy path cause it looked like it had all of the right answers. Besides, being consistently lonely and isolated as he was, making the leap to the Dark Side wasn't such a stretch. The Dark Side is just isolation + unlimited power. So he seemed to navigate Sith philosophy in practice partly through watching Anakin Skywalker's shortcomings while being oblivious to his own.
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
7/6 12:58pm
Subject:
RE: Jacen Solo's actions justified?
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We are not having a torture argument here, please and thank you.
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nancyallen
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
7/6 2:50pm
Subject:
RE: Jacen Solo's actions justified?
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Thing is, his actions really make him no better than the Sith. He may have been trying to end the war, but just how much of a hero is he seen to be, really?
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DarthBoba
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
7/6 3:21pm
Subject:
RE: Jacen Solo's actions justified?
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To me, it seems like Jacen Solo's actions made what was a fairly minor planetary insurrection into a full-fledged galactic war. So no, not justified in the slightest.
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dizfactor
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
7/6 3:53pm
Subject:
RE: Jacen Solo's actions justified?
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Master-Chief-Kenobi posted:
dizfactor posted:
Master-Chief-Kenobi posted:
Jacen personally instigated & forced the very war he fought to end.
We don't know that. Perhaps the 2nd Galactic Civil War was significantly less nasty than the war that would have eventually taken place had the galaxy not been able to use Jacen as a point to rally against. He may have prevented a big war later at the cost of a small war now.
We do know that. Lumiya worked behind the scenes to push the Confederation much closer to war & violence then they would have ever gone on their own and Jacen used his star power to kill any and all attempts at a peaceful solution, many times. There was no war without Lumiya & Jacen. Why do you think it stopped so suddenly the isntant Jacen was dead? He was the ONLY person in the galaxy keeping the war on. If Jacen never came to lead GAG then the war would never have happened. After the first 2-3 books Corellia was mostly an innocent victim acting in self-defence in the face of an evil & oppressive Galactic Alliance who would not stop fighting until Corellia lay in ruins & its civilian popualtion extinct.
You're thinking too short term. No, there wouldn't have been a war then, in that situation, with those players, over those issues, had Jacen and Lumiya not made it happen. But 10 years down the road? 20?
Jacen foresaw a war in the Dark Nest trilogy that was much, much worse than the Swarm War and the Second GCW put together. What if he prevented such a war from happening? What about the implications that Jacen became the DLotS because otherwise it would have been Luke? Can you imagine how bad a war against Darth Luke would be?
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DarthBoba
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
7/6 4:21pm
Subject:
RE: Jacen Solo's actions justified?
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For all we know, he was seeing the New Sith War, which certainly strikes me as being much much worse than the 2nd GCW and the Swarm War. And therefore, you could view Jacen's silliness by declaring himself a Sith Lord the direct cause of Luke being too focused on Jacen to notice the New Sith hanging out on Korriban at a point in time when they could've been trapped and destroyed with relative ease.
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Darth-Ghost
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
7/6 5:41pm
Subject:
RE: Jacen Solo's actions justified?
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But what's to stop Luke from not being able to focus on the New Sith in Korriban now? Jacen effectively distracted Luke for 1 lousy year, what will distract him for the next 87? Or what was distracting him for the last 20?
Krayt's been trianing these Sith since at least the YJK times.
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DarthPaxious
Registered:
Jul '08
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Date Posted:
7/6 5:53pm
Subject:
RE: Jacen Solo's actions justified?
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But Caedus was the one that won the war for the most part the Confederation and Cha Niathal were beaten by his part of the army, the Mandalorians and their allies were on the way out as well because of Caedus. The only group that wasn't beaten by the end was the Jedi Coalition which except at the the start of the war really didn't do much but try and stop Caedus.
Plus I do not buy that he made the war worse. The Confederation was getting stronger all the time(Lumiya we can blame but there tensions were already building) The Corellian's were not going to stop even when they tried for the peace with Omas we heard that Gejjen was just using that as a way to get rid of Jacen and Niathal. There is really no way to know what would have happend if Caedus hadn't taken the road he did. But the end results here was he did force a peace he just wasn't alive to see it.
As for his actions, Caedus wasn't perfect with what he did, killing Patra Tebut was pointless and his desire to keep attacking Fonder even after a surrender also a waste of time,but even he admited that these were the wrong moves to make. That doesn't justify what he did but also shows that he is learning from his mistakes, that gives him more credibility.
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Master-Chief-Kenobi
Registered:
Jun '07
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Date Posted:
7/6 7:24pm
Subject:
RE: Jacen Solo's actions justified?
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[quote=dizfactorYou're thinking too short term. No, there wouldn't have been a war then, in that situation, with those players, over those issues, had Jacen and Lumiya not made it happen. But 10 years down the road? 20?
Jacen foresaw a war in the Dark Nest trilogy that was much, much worse than the Swarm War and the Second GCW put together. What if he prevented such a war from happening? What about the implications that Jacen became the DLotS because otherwise it would have been Luke? Can you imagine how bad a war against Darth Luke would be?[/quote]
Jacen in DNT was an darksider and as such is incapable of seeing any futures that don't lead to war. Dark side force users cannot see force visions that lead to peace because that doesn't come from the dark. No such war was ever impending or possible until Jacen set upon his dark path. There's a reason why the shooting stopped the instant Jacen died & the very next ruler of the Galactic Alliance after him was leading one of the oppossing factions of the war. That vision jacen saw on DNT was a warning to him from the force of what would happen if he continued down his dark path & a message for him to return to the light & renounce his evil ways.
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ChildOfWinds
Registered:
Apr '01
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Date Posted:
7/6 7:53pm
Subject:
RE: Jacen Solo's actions justified?
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dizfactor
What about the implications that Jacen became the DLotS because otherwise it would have been Luke? Can you imagine how bad a war against Darth Luke would be?
I did not really see any such implications in the books. That was a fan theory that got to be fairly popular in a thread on this board.
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Nishka
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
7/6 8:25pm
Subject:
RE: Jacen Solo's actions justified?
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ChildOfWinds posted:
dizfactor
What about the implications that Jacen became the DLotS because otherwise it would have been Luke? Can you imagine how bad a war against Darth Luke would be?
I did not really see any such implications in the books. That was a fan theory that got to be fairly popular in a thread on this board.
Well didn't that theory gain some credibilty in Invincible? Seemed like Troy Denning was all about trying to imply the real reason Luke couldn't go after Jacen (other than the book would have been over by chapter two.) Was because he would then become even worse than Caedus
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