Master-Chief-Kenobi posted:

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Why do you think it stopped so suddenly the isntant Jacen was dead?

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ChildOfWinds posted:

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Nishka

Well didn't that theory gain some credibilty in Invincible? Seemed like Troy Denning was all about trying to imply the real reason Luke couldn't go after Jacen (other than the book would have been over by chapter two.) Was because he would then become even worse than Caedus

Troy Denning did hint that Luke might have gone dark if he would have gone after Jacen, yes, because he might have killed Jacen for revenge. It was done that way, I think, to allow Jaina to have a twin fight with Jacen, instead of a Luke/Jacen confrontation. I thought it was a rather weak excuse myself.

But the theory I was referring to was one that fans came up with after Invincible. The basic premise, as I understand it, was that Jacen sacrificed himself and became a sith Lord so Luke wouldn't have to become one. That one of them had to become a Sith and if Jacen hadn't killed Nelani which started him down the dark path, Luke would have become a Sith Lord instead. Those who came up with the theory asked why Jacen would fight Luke in all of his other visions and their theory was that Luke was a Sith and Jacen was opposing him.

I suggested to them that one OTHER reason Luke could have been dueling Jacen was because if Nelani had survived, she would have told Luke about the Jacen/Lumiya connection. Luke might then have gone to confront Lumiya, and Jacen might have come to Lumiya's defense and fought Luke because he didn't want the Sith secrets to die with Lumiya. In other words, that Jacen was the darksider and Luke the lightsider in the fight.

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Nishka posted:

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ChildOfWinds posted:

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Nishka

Well didn't that theory gain some credibilty in Invincible? Seemed like Troy Denning was all about trying to imply the real reason Luke couldn't go after Jacen (other than the book would have been over by chapter two.) Was because he would then become even worse than Caedus

Troy Denning did hint that Luke might have gone dark if he would have gone after Jacen, yes, because he might have killed Jacen for revenge. It was done that way, I think, to allow Jaina to have a twin fight with Jacen, instead of a Luke/Jacen confrontation. I thought it was a rather weak excuse myself.

But the theory I was referring to was one that fans came up with after Invincible. The basic premise, as I understand it, was that Jacen sacrificed himself and became a sith Lord so Luke wouldn't have to become one. That one of them had to become a Sith and if Jacen hadn't killed Nelani which started him down the dark path, Luke would have become a Sith Lord instead. Those who came up with the theory asked why Jacen would fight Luke in all of his other visions and their theory was that Luke was a Sith and Jacen was opposing him.

I suggested to them that one OTHER reason Luke could have been dueling Jacen was because if Nelani had survived, she would have told Luke about the Jacen/Lumiya connection. Luke might then have gone to confront Lumiya, and Jacen might have come to Lumiya's defense and fought Luke because he didn't want the Sith secrets to die with Lumiya. In other words, that Jacen was the darksider and Luke the lightsider in the fight.

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I agree wholeheartily with that Luke will turn into a Sith was just a convienent excuse to not have Luke fight Jacen. Your other suggestion though makes a lot of sense to me as well. For we have seen that when a Jedi starts to fall down the dark path his visions of the future are never exactly what they seem to be. We've scene this with Jacen's visions, Anakin's visions, Jorus C'baoth, even Dooku.

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marmkid posted:

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Nishka posted:

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ChildOfWinds posted:

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Nishka

Well didn't that theory gain some credibilty in Invincible? Seemed like Troy Denning was all about trying to imply the real reason Luke couldn't go after Jacen (other than the book would have been over by chapter two.) Was because he would then become even worse than Caedus

Troy Denning did hint that Luke might have gone dark if he would have gone after Jacen, yes, because he might have killed Jacen for revenge. It was done that way, I think, to allow Jaina to have a twin fight with Jacen, instead of a Luke/Jacen confrontation. I thought it was a rather weak excuse myself.

But the theory I was referring to was one that fans came up with after Invincible. The basic premise, as I understand it, was that Jacen sacrificed himself and became a sith Lord so Luke wouldn't have to become one. That one of them had to become a Sith and if Jacen hadn't killed Nelani which started him down the dark path, Luke would have become a Sith Lord instead. Those who came up with the theory asked why Jacen would fight Luke in all of his other visions and their theory was that Luke was a Sith and Jacen was opposing him.

I suggested to them that one OTHER reason Luke could have been dueling Jacen was because if Nelani had survived, she would have told Luke about the Jacen/Lumiya connection. Luke might then have gone to confront Lumiya, and Jacen might have come to Lumiya's defense and fought Luke because he didn't want the Sith secrets to die with Lumiya. In other words, that Jacen was the darksider and Luke the lightsider in the fight.

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I agree wholeheartily with that Luke will turn into a Sith was just a convienent excuse to not have Luke fight Jacen. Your other suggestion though makes a lot of sense to me as well. For we have seen that when a Jedi starts to fall down the dark path his visions of the future are never exactly what they seem to be. We've scene this with Jacen's visions, Anakin's visions, Jorus C'baoth, even Dooku.

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i would have loved for Jacen's reasoning to be that he had to turn Sith so Luke wouldnt
if for some reason there were events happening, along with a series of force visions that showed that Luke (or Jaina, or anyone else close to him for that matter) were heading down a dark path, and his way to prevent it was to take the fall himself
thus, making a sacrifice of himself to save his loved ones from falling
maybe he could have been arrogant enough to think he could not become corrupted by it, which he was definitely arrogant enough to think



i also dont think Jacen should be given credit for uniting the galaxy or anything like that
and his actions werent justified, since he became a murderer many times over, and also was doing it for his own reasons
if your problem is so big (like trying to save the galaxy) and your ego cant handle getting help from anyone, so you do everything yourself, mess it up, kill a ton of people, then when you are killed, the galaxy unites itself...jacen doesnt deserve the credit for that

now if he would have decided to martyr himself, and make the entire galaxy hate him enough to unite against him, well that might have made things different

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Nishka posted:

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Very good point, I know in invincible it is implied that Jacen was willing to sacrafice everything to achive peace the only problem with that is that throughout all the other books that is not his motivation. He wants to impose control not have the galaxy regain control. The path he took was littered with his own fear anger and ego and he should not be remembered for achiving peace.

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marmkid posted:

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Nishka posted:

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Very good point, I know in invincible it is implied that Jacen was willing to sacrafice everything to achive peace the only problem with that is that throughout all the other books that is not his motivation. He wants to impose control not have the galaxy regain control. The path he took was littered with his own fear anger and ego and he should not be remembered for achiving peace.

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i am not sure where this idea has come from, that jacen was a martyr all along and actually did the right thing and in the end united the galaxy
i would be completely fine if that were the intent of the series and it was actually written that way
but it wasnt

maybe Betrayal led us to think that, since the only vision of the future he was seeing that didnt have luke dying was the one where he killed nelani and joined with lumiya

but since then, it wasnt as if he was trying to do good, and was stuck in the wrong situation
he made the wrong decision, became a sith and was evil

it was never portrayed as he was sacrificing himself as much as he was using that to justify things in his own head

jacen knew what he was doing, and was very calculating the whole time
he didnt have terrible visions of things going wrong past the first book
he was never really conflicted in what he was doing

if it was shown that he hated everything he was doing, but he sincerely thought this was the only way to save his family, like Anakin in the PT, then maybe that might make sense
i dont know how they could have done that without having a sith puppet master in the background leading his visions on
Lumiya wouldnt have worked that way (i daresay vergere might have, but lets not go there)
in that case, Jacen could have been seen as tragic and tricked into doing what he did

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PhaZe posted:

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As much as I'd like to think he was since he's my favorite character, no they weren't. This war was escalated because of him, and the galaxy (despite how calm it is the DAY of a peace treaty...give me a break) isn't going to be much safer.

A sad waste of Jacens character considering everything he accomplished in the NJO.

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marmkid posted:

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PhaZe posted:

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As much as I'd like to think he was since he's my favorite character, no they weren't. This war was escalated because of him, and the galaxy (despite how calm it is the DAY of a peace treaty...give me a break) isn't going to be much safer.

A sad waste of Jacens character considering everything he accomplished in the NJO.

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i liked his charactor a lot too
i dont think he is necessarily a waste

i think Jacen falling the way he did makes a lot more sense if you look at his charactor than compared if Anakin or Jaina fell

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Nishka posted:

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Could you explain why you think his character made more sense to fall. To me I always thought Jacen was the last member of the solo clan that would fall. Anakin with the power he wielded and his thoughts that the force was a tool. Jaina with her emotional.... I guess immaturity but that might be the wrong word can't think of another way to explain it. Jacen though seemed so strongly based in the light until the Dark Nest Trilogy and then everything came undone.

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marmkid posted:

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[quote=Nishka]
i think Jacen always had an arrogance about him that ultimately led him to the dark side

even in the NJO, he thought that by him using the force, something terrible would happen, so he decided that he had to stop using it completely
in Vector Prime, he seems to feel that he almost knows better than Luke when questioning what it means to be a jedi
i guess you could say that he was being a good questioning student, but he was always borderline with how far he held to his opinions
he didnt seem to take the advice of older and much more experienced jedi that well
then after traitor, he essentially adopts his own (or vergere's) view of the force and everything, and basically rejects Luke and the rest of the jedi and their view. you can say that vergere tricked him and manipulated him, but it also worked in large part because she fed his ego, building him up as the "perfect" and most powerful jedi there could be
which is a shame, because he was on route to that already

Jacen was always a thinker, which led him to be able to justify his actions, even if they were dark
Jaina and Anakin might be more emotional, and fall that way, but it would never stick in my opinion, because once that goal was achieved, they would calm down and see what just happened
Jacen would calm down, then rationalize what he did as being ok

Jaina is definitely more immature in my opinion too
which led to her brief fall in Dark Journey
but it didnt stick once the emotion went away

Jacen always seemed "strong in the light", but only when he was winning
when he was captured in Traitor, he held for a very long time, until Vergere showed him a way he could win which was "borderline" ethical for a jedi
i dont think that if the situations were reversed, that his charactor would make the sacrifice Anakin did in Star by Star


i think jacen was a fascinating charactor, and i actually like his turn to the dark side
but none of what he did was right

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Nishka posted:

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Well Jacen definetly had the arragoance of beliving he was the only one that could bring order to the galaxy going for him. Even back as far as Vector Prime as you said. I wasn't a huge fan of his turning to the dark side. Not because of the idea but just on the execution.

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