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Author	Topic: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader (Warning: TFU Spoilers)
Irandrura Registered: Feb '07	Date Posted: 7/14 12:23pm Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
	Ulicus posted: She was also a Jedi Master, not a Jedi Knight. And this was before Vader had become comfortable with his new situation and adapted his combat style to the suit. She was a Master? Huh. I guess my memory's playing tricks on me. Ulicus posted: One solid hit, a graze on the glove and another blow that owed "as much to luck" as skill. Yeah. Then Vader thought: "Hmm, let's dominate him with the Force" and did so. Trust me, I have very few complaints with Dark Lord. Nor do I. It's a great book and really helps show how fearsome Vader can be, as well as explains his transition from Anakin to the Vader we all know and love. Ulicus posted: I mean, even before the events of Dark Lord, where Vader essentially learns how to be Vader, he was more than capable of taking out three Jedi Knights/Masters before suffering any serious wounds in a Seven-on-One battle during Purge. One month after RotS. (The problem with Purge is that the way it ends insinutates that the greater part of Vader's reputation wasn't actually true.) Wasn't Dark Lord immediately after RotS? Order 66 happens during it. I was under the impression he took down Shryne prior to Purge. Ulicus posted: Good points, all. I'd forgotten about a lot of Celeste's accompishments. Still, she is simultaneously fighting a mental battle with Karness Muur, and I don't know whether we could say she was "well rested" after 4000 years, either. Is she operating at peak efficiency? Well, she did just sit inside a torture chamber for four thousand years, so I suspect she wasn't feeling at her best. She actually leans her head on Vader's chest as she tries to recuperate. The Force does wonders for that, and I suspect she had a great deal of anger to work out after her stay in the oubliette which might help in combat. She does seem very aggressive in Dark Times. It makes me wonder what might have happened if Peturri hadn't blabbed about the Sith and Celeste hadn't gone straight into 'crush the Sith!' mode... Ulicus posted: That Force push still bugs me. Meh. As you said, at the start of the fight Vader didn't want to hurt Celeste, so you can think of it that way. Actually, come to think of it, Vader spends the entirety of the DT11 part of the duel firmly on the defensive. He talks, trying to convince her to put down the lightsabre and stop fighting, so he can have an apprentice. For the entire battle, Vader is trying to subdue, not kill. Go through it page-by-page and count the number of attacks Vader makes. There's a Force push in DT12, but it's basically all Celeste charging at Vader, and him defending himself and trying to disarm her. At no point does he initiate an attack. So if it helps, think of it that way. Vader was going easy on her. If he wanted her dead, he could probably have achieved it earlier.
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Ulicus Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 7/14 12:30pm Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
	Irandrura posted: Wasn't Dark Lord immediately after RotS? Order 66 happens during it. I was under the impression he took down Shryne prior to Purge. Purge takes place before the first arc of Dark Times, which happens before/concurrently with Dark Lord. It does mean that there is a slight error now, in that Vader thinks back on having only ever been wounded by Obi-Wan, Dooku and Ventress (and, after Purge, we know that's not true) - but that can likely be explained away in terms of him thinking "one-on-one". Dark Lord begins during Order Sixty-Six and then jumps ahead a month and a bit, basically. Irandura posted: It makes me wonder what might have happened if Peturri hadn't blabbed about the Sith and Celeste hadn't gone straight into 'crush the Sith!' mode... Vader would have wooed her with classy lines such as: "I don't like the oubliette. It's rough, and course, and irritating - and it gets everywhere." Irandura posted: So if it helps, think of it that way. Vader was going easy on her. I do. -----signature----- Recipient of Golden Ewok™ Trip Cares
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GrandAdmiralJello Title: Emperor • EUC • JCC Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 7/14 5:05pm Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader - Date Edited: 7/14 5:06pm (1 edits total) Edited By: GrandAdmiralJello
	Trip posted: Really, I think the best example of the difference between the two men is in sort of people they choose as subordinates. Vader surrounds himself with incredibly capable individuals-- literally, the best of the best of the best-- from Maarek Stele to Shira Brie to even Boba Fett and, yes, Rhett Starkiller. Contrast this with Thrawn, who selects an officer who personifies mediocrity as his "protégé"-- the sort of man who Thrawn can easily awe with the extent of his 'genius,' and most importantly the sort of man who will never pose a threat to his self-image. I love it. Irandura posted: He ruthlessly crushes people who dare to badmouth him. Looks like ego to me. As opposed to Thrawn's behavior when Jade badmouths him? Or his very petty betrayal? Irandura posted: Where are you getting this idea that Pellaeon is mediocre? By all accounts he's quite a talented officer, and goes on to practically save the Empire singlehandedly. Pellaeon wasn't a military prodigy like Thrawn, but he's always accounted well for himself in battle and in politics. Personally I always liked Pellaeon as a symbol of everything that's good about the Empire. Here it comes. The battle is joined. Prepare yourself. (also, as a bit of clarification, I'm not laughing at you more so at the notion that you've accidentally stirred up a hornet's nest.) Irandura posted: 2/ Illegal? The Emperor was dead and no one had any idea what was going on. If he'd disobeyed an order I'd be with you, but it was anarchy at Endor. And as for cowardly, it is not cowardly to recognise a losing battle and retreat from it. Indeed, I would argue that that's braver than staying and fighting to the end for no reason but pride. Pellaeon took the best action at the time, and in doing so preserved his ship and his crew's lives instead of dying in a futile battle. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. A thousand times wrong. He is guilty of desertion in the face of the enemy and mutiny. He issued an illegal retreat order because of this thing we call the chain of command. He was an executive officer who was commanding his ship; which means he was outranked by every single captain in the fleet. He was outranked by several admirals, including the Grand Admiral who lead the fleet. It doesn't matter what he thought personally. It doesn't matter what happened in the battle. The military simply does not work that day. An individual cog in the machine does not decide for themselves when the battle is over, or any semblance of discipline or cohesion is lost. Do you think that soldiers don't waver, even during overwhelming victories? There always is bloodshed--and the edge of victory and that of defeat may be one and the same. It is not an individual soldier's place to judge that, if he even can. We know for a canonical fact that only three Star Destroyers from the Endor Fleet (TAB sourcebook) could have routed the entire Rebel Fleet remaining at Endor. Three. How many were there before the retreat? Competent command was what was required, not desertion. Irandura posted: 3/ You mean from the Clone Wars through to serving Thrawn on the Chimaera? Trip, the Empire was riddled with corruption and stagnancy. What was there to do for young officers to distinguish themselves? He was rapidly promoted during the Clone Wars, which shows some competency. One notices that promotion above captain was often dangerous in the Imperial Navy due to the highly competitive political conflict at the time, and Pellaeon was always disdainful of politics and believed in loyalty to the Empire above all. Perhaps he didn't brown-nose the right admirals. Perhaps he liked being where he was, avoiding the political entanglements of higher rank. Perhaps he was just marginalised through no fault of his own. There are plenty of possible reasons other than incompetency, especially when he's always been depicted as a reasonably competent leader. Not true. The Hero's Guide clearly states that promotions behind mid-level rank are generally obtained by merit rather than nepotism, and the higher ups are not interested in somebody's little precious getting a marshal's baton simply because of who he is. The Empire did not work that way. Irandura posted: I mean he's the man who had the guts to admit that the Empire had lost and sign a peace treaty. I give him all respect for that. You give him respect for driving the Empire into the dirt throughout his entire career, and then being capable of seeing what he'd done? Gee, I should hope that we all were so capable of seeing the obvious as Pelly is. Robimus posted: The Imperial regime in the outerrim was a part of the original Empire, Pellaeon solidified its borders and continued to serve its people as best he could, with limited resources. At no point was he a Warlord, he served under the Moff's controlling the eight sectors, with Moff's the like of Disra having been assigned by Palpatine himself. As we've established at numerous points in the past, and as Legacy now conclusively proves, the Imperial Remnant is not the same entity as the First Galactic Empire. Your opinion is fanfiction. cough Right, Vader. Here's my thoughts re: Vader vs. Thrawn before I saw that little Pelly bit. Vader is the ultimate pragmatist. Thrawn is the dilettante (or to use a less pejorative word, the artist). That doesn't make either less intellectual than the other--there's a great degree of intelligence required with pragmatism. It's just that Vader's ruthlessness in the pursuit of his goals sometimes obscures that. We must all remember, though, that Thrawn is equally ruthless in following his goals--he just takes a more circumspect path. It's a difference of style, not of substance. -----signature----- Roma Æterna\|SPQR Imperium Sine Fine "Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque" -Ennius, Annales "Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento;hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos" -Virgil, Aeneid
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 7/14 5:15pm Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
	Grand Admiral Jello posted: We know for a canonical fact that only three Star Destroyers from the Endor Fleet (TAB sourcebook) could have routed the entire Rebel Fleet remaining at Endor. Three. How many were there before the retreat? Competent command was what was required, not desertion. Given they were all brain fried lunatics and the Truce at Bakura is written in universe as a piece of Rebel Propaganda, I believe it's authenticity is as questionable as the statement by Mara Jade that it wasn't Palpatine that came back in DE. Most sources back up that the Empire was utterly outmatched at Endor because they had no ability whatsoever to operate their weaponry. This is actually born out by the Return of the Jedi novelization which goes on at length to talk about the "Evil heart of the Empire' being torn out. Of course, you're correct that Pellaeon's order was illegal and he must have had a pardon of some kind or an exceptionally good lawyer. Grand Admiral Jello posted: The Hero's Guide clearly states that promotions behind mid-level rank are generally obtained by merit rather than nepotism, and the higher ups are not interested in somebody's little precious getting a marshal's baton simply because of who he is. The Empire did not work that way. Though, counterpoint, there's also a great number of exceptions to this rule. Fleet Admiral Ozzel and at least two Grand Admirals were promoted on the basis of croneyism. I don't think that family ties count for much in the Empire but toadying is another matter entirely. However, the EU has obscured that the primary problem in the Empire was never the Fleet itself but the Moffs and Bureaucracy that was a collection of incompetents. I maintain Tarkin was the exception rather than the rule. Back to Vader for a second, I confess I am very annoyed every time we see another Jedi escape the Darth Vader net. -----signature----- Check out Halt Evil Doer!: The RPG setting for Super Heroes! Halt Evil Doer PDF: http://tinyurl.com/555axt
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Ulicus Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 7/14 5:36pm Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
	Especially when they escape unharmed. Brand at least had the decency to be severely maimed by Vader first. -----signature----- Recipient of Golden Ewok™ Trip Cares
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Havac Title: Lit Mod of War Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 7/14 5:40pm Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader - Date Edited: 7/14 5:55pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Havac
	_Catherine_ posted: That said, I used to love Galaxy of Fear, and I always thought that John Whitman was very respectful toward Vader's character. Every time he'd show up in one of the books, all of the characters, even Whitman's original villains, knew they were screwed. Vader was the only one who could deal with obstacles that killed off minor characters left and right, like the automated defenses in the Jedi ruins on Dantooine and the genetically engineered monster Eppon, and the books very much laid the blame for the Jedi Purge at Vader's feet. This is especially obvious in book five, Ghost of the Jedi, where the main characters encounter the shade of a Jedi Knight who Vader murdered on Nespis VIII before destroying the Jedi library there. Pretty cool stuff. Great point. That's exactly the kind of portrayal of Vader I love -- this menacing figure who just exudes a sense of pure invincibility. He can handle anything -- he casually bats aside things that have killed anyone else who's tried to tackle them. Vader just has a very dominant style, one that I think needs to be conveyed in portrayals of him. The scenes in Traviss's short stories where he's essentially learning that big-dog swagger, that sense of command and malevolence are just priceless. Irandrura posted: When was the last time Vader took criticism from anyone other than Palpatine? Like all Sith, Vader's very concerned with his own personal power and ego. Well, the first time was ANH. Daine Jir criticizes Vader's plans out the wazoo, and Vader has no problem with that. It's a long-established pattern, as Trip has said, that Vader respects those who are willing to stand up to him and rewards them for having that willingness and thereby actually being useful to him. It's sycophants, incompetents, and outright enemies that he despises. Also, folks, this is not the Pellaeon thread, and it's not the Thrawn thread. Talk Vader or don't talk at all. And ignoring canon will earn you a swift kick in the pants. -----signature----- "Have you not yet learned, Executor, that everything I tell you is the truth?" - Vergere Recipient of Thrawn McEwok's Sexually Ambiguous Tusken Raider™ and a Special Golden Ewok™ "Reality doesn't care if you believe it." - Boba Fett
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Sinrebirth Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 7/14 5:51pm Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader - Date Edited: 7/14 5:52pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Sinrebirth
	EDIT: Apologies Havac. -----signature----- Sey's Sinre The First Canon Apologist The Missing Chapters of LotF: Invincible http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=28933751&brd=10477&replies=10 Chapter 4.5 is up! Now Featuring: Niathal, Daala, Syal, Wedge, Winter & Tycho!
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dizfactor Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 7/14 6:16pm Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
	I think there's a huge difference between having an angsty Vader who gets worked over in a fight in the immediate aftermath of ROTS, and one that comes along later. In Purge, yes, he gets the crap knocked out of him, yes, he has help from the 501st, but at the same time he is utterly terrifying. For Pete's sake, he picks up his own severed hand with the cortosis blade still gripped in it and stabs someone to death with it. He is just learning to be Vader, and he is just a totally unstoppable killing machine. Dark Lord takes him from that point to figuring out how to fight effectively with his new body. The fight with Celeste (and Muur, I might add) comes shortly after that, and he pretty solidly pwns her before deciding it's not worth his time. All of that works for me. Anything showing him being a wuss after, say, 18BBY or 17 BBY or so, though, until after the duel on Cloud City, I hate it hate it hate it. Except for that Tales story where his troops bring him 3PO on Cloud City and he gets all sad. That rocks, and it's short and subtle. -----signature----- "Play is going to be for the 21st century what steam was to the 19th century." Julian Dibbell "You gotta love an elite killing force that you can fool by putting on a hat." Gryph
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Ulicus Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 7/14 6:40pm Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader - Date Edited: 7/14 6:45pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Ulicus
	dizfactor posted: I think there's a huge difference between having an angsty Vader who gets worked over in a fight in the immediate aftermath of ROTS, and one that comes along later. True, though I tend to think in terms of: "Pre-Dark Lord" and "Post-Dark Lord". dizfactor posted: In Purge, yes, he gets the crap knocked out of him, yes, he has help from the 501st, but at the same time he is utterly terrifying. For Pete's sake, he picks up his own severed hand with the cortosis blade still gripped in it and stabs someone to death with it. He is just learning to be Vader, and he is just a totally unstoppable killing machine. I really enjoyed Purge on my first reading, for that exact reason. Still, the way it ends, with the construction of the "legend" of Darth Vader leaves me with a bit of a sour taste. dizfactor posted: Dark Lord takes him from that point to figuring out how to fight effectively with his new body. Yeah, it's awesome - but then Luceno always is. dizfactor posted: The fight with Celeste (and Muur, I might add) comes shortly after that, and he pretty solidly pwns her before deciding it's not worth his time. Heh. I guess. If I look at the whole thing sideways and work my own "background" explanations in, it's not terrible. But, goshdarnit, it still bugs me that she can break through his defences and send him flying. dizfactor posted: Anything showing him being a wuss after, say, 18BBY or 17 BBY or so, though, until after the duel on Cloud City, I hate it hate it hate it. Aye. Perfect Evil, for example, irritates me profoundly... it's not even supposed to be canon. Grumble Vader getting blindsided and nearly killed by a Force sensitive tusken raider in 0 ABY? That's just not cool. (Even if it is retconned as being Hett somehow) His getting teary-eyed over Tao bugs me too. Edit: Well, a quick trip over to the Wook shows me that Perfect Evil and Tao himself is again listed as "ambiguously canon". Quite right, too. Vader's Legacy has yet to be published. (Still, I wonder if Abel would accept a bribe to remove Tao and the references to Perfect Evil.... ) -----signature----- Recipient of Golden Ewok™ Trip Cares
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JaySkywalker01 Registered: Oct '05	Date Posted: 7/14 6:46pm Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
	From what we have seen of TFU Vader will kick lots of butt there. -----signature----- Jay: "Ben Franklin said, speak softly and carry a big stick!" Carnage: Uhm, Ben Franklin was more like "Speak Loud, Get Wasted, and use his "Stick" on French Women." Oh yeah....
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Ulicus Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 7/14 6:50pm Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
	JaySkywalker01 posted: From what we have seen of TFU Vader will kick lots of butt there. Until he is soundly trashed by Rhett Stukiller, you mean. I mean, he's such a Wunderkind that he's able to pull a lightsaber from Vader's durasteel grip at the age of... what? Four? Five? Gosh, I'm pessimistic. -----signature----- Recipient of Golden Ewok™ Trip Cares
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 7/14 7:02pm Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
	Ulicus posted: Yeah, it's awesome - but then Luceno always is. Siggable. -----signature----- The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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JaySkywalker01 Registered: Oct '05	Date Posted: 7/14 7:31pm Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
	Ulicus posted: JaySkywalker01 posted: From what we have seen of TFU Vader will kick lots of butt there. Until he is soundly trashed by Rhett Stukiller, you mean. I mean, he's such a Wunderkind that he's able to pull a lightsaber from Vader's durasteel grip at the age of... what? Four? Five? Gosh, I'm pessimistic. Anyone can be caught off guard. Just ask the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.... -----signature----- Jay: "Ben Franklin said, speak softly and carry a big stick!" Carnage: Uhm, Ben Franklin was more like "Speak Loud, Get Wasted, and use his "Stick" on French Women." Oh yeah....
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Ulicus Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 7/14 7:33pm Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
	JaySkywalker01 posted: Ulicus posted: JaySkywalker01 posted: From what we have seen of TFU Vader will kick lots of butt there. Until he is soundly trashed by Rhett Stukiller, you mean. I mean, he's such a Wunderkind that he's able to pull a lightsaber from Vader's durasteel grip at the age of... what? Four? Five? Gosh, I'm pessimistic. Anyone can be caught off guard. Just ask the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.... There's a difference between being caught off guard by Darth Vader and a five year old, methinks. Gotta sleep now, anyway. -----signature----- Recipient of Golden Ewok™ Trip Cares
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JaySkywalker01 Registered: Oct '05	Date Posted: 7/14 7:38pm Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
	Ulicus posted: JaySkywalker01 posted: Ulicus posted: [quote=JaySkywalker01]From what we have seen of TFU Vader will kick lots of butt there. Until he is soundly trashed by Rhett Stukiller, you mean. I mean, he's such a Wunderkind that he's able to pull a lightsaber from Vader's durasteel grip at the age of... what? Four? Five? Gosh, I'm pessimistic. Anyone can be caught off guard. Just ask the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.... There's a difference between being caught off guard by Darth Vader and a five year old, methinks. Gotta sleep now, anyway. [/quote] In that case, young Starkiller should yell, YIIPPEEEEE!!!!! when he grabs it. -----signature----- Jay: "Ben Franklin said, speak softly and carry a big stick!" Carnage: Uhm, Ben Franklin was more like "Speak Loud, Get Wasted, and use his "Stick" on French Women." Oh yeah....
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