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Topic:
SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader (Warning: TFU Spoilers)
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JaySkywalker01
Registered:
Oct '05
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Date Posted:
7/16 9:38am
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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Let's talk about Vader's lightsaber. We know he built a new one right before DL, but how many did he end up making? Also, his apparently had the ability to "break" Jedi lightsabers and adjust the length. Anything else special about it?
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Jay:
"Ben Franklin said, speak softly and carry a big stick!"
Carnage:
Uhm, Ben Franklin was more like "Speak Loud, Get Wasted, and use his "Stick" on French Women."
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Ashandarei
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
7/16 9:43am
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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Have we ever actually seen the red Sith synthetic crystals' supposed ability to "shatter" an opposing lightsaber blade? I remember reading about it as one of the reasons that Sith favor them, but I can't remember ever hearing about it happening.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
7/16 10:43am
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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That's one of those EU things where the author really should have restrained themselves.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
7/16 11:01am
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
That's one of those EU things where the author really should have restrained themselves.
I wouldn't mind seeing lightsabers "shatter" if it just meant they shorted out.
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
7/16 11:34am
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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rhonderoo posted:
Actually, I believe it's supposed to be interpretted the way you don't like. But that's actually good characterization.  In all his "meanie-ness", he's still hanging on to a shred of Anakin that manages to get through every once in a while, and when he's written like that, it gives the character the depth that made him turn out to be the character that Lucas decided the story needed to be about.
Hmm. He's not characterised as hanging on to it, though (at least not in the Perry/Luceno stuff). It's hanging on to him. Vader's actively trying to purge himself of it, at least on a conscious level.
rhonderoo posted:
True, he's badass, and he HATES the little shred of Anakin that does come through in moments like the one mentioned at the end of Tales, at the end, it's that shred that made him realize that he needed to just toss Palpatine down the reactor shaft. So the little shred of Anakin won.
Quite right.
In the end. 
Before the end, it should pretty much be buried.
rhonderoo posted:
To me, if you take that away from him, and go on ad nauseum about how many Jedi he killed or his "power", you miss a BIG part of the character and what makes him so special - and what spawned the prequels, made him the tragic hero as well as made him the icon of the story. He IS the quintessential "tragic" hero/villian that paved the way for so many others.
Eh. I prefer to separate Anakin/Vader in terms of their role. Anakin Skywalker is a tragic hero, but Vader should be (and was previously) portrayed as a full-on villian who rises from the tragic hero's ashes. Certainly, after ESB, the waters get a bit muddier... but that should really be the start of it, rather than an indication of what he's always been like.
rhonderoo posted:
There is no one that really knows the character and writes him well (I lump Reaves in this, as well as Traviss, Perry, Luceno, Stover and a precious, precious few others...) that leaves this part out. No one is denying his 99% badassery and the times that Vader DOES squash Anakin. When he's on, he's on. And no one better mess with him, kind of like a wounded bear. He does't like to be reminded of it. But in the end it's the Jedi that won out, and for that to be possible - he's had to be there all along or the story is way more one-dimensional.
There all along, yes - but despised. I don't think it should be "the times" Vader does squash Anakin, it should be: "Vader is always squashing Anakin, except in very exceptional circumstances, like Luke being on the scene".
For his triumph over the dark side to have been an accomplishment and have real meaning, Vader needs to have been Evil with a capital E and, not only a that, but a man who "reveled in his power" and "embraced all that he had done" - as Luceno writes. He should have, at the very least, tricked himself into believing he has no regrets. If every other Tuesday he's thinking: "I wish I could go back to the light, but it's too late for me. I hate being evil.", then it makes him look weak for having not turned back sooner.
S'one of the problems I had with the first details leaked about the TFU story. We're told: "Vader realises he's been tricked into serving the dark side by Palpatine, but thinks it's too late to go back... blah blah"... that's really not good news. Vader's aware that Palpatine manipulated him, but the only thing he consciously regrets is getting slashed to pieces by Obi-Wan Kenobi, per SotE.
rhonderoo posted:
I can't stand to pick up a book where Vader is "kill, kill, kill" and "maim, maim, main" without some real reason that he's doing it. He always had a purpose, even if it was maintaining order. He wasn't a mindless killing machine.
Absolutely right, I don't disagree there. Still, that isn't the same as his ever being justified in what he's doing. His purposes should generally be skewed, selfish and evil - even if he doesn't think they are.
Ash posted:
Have we ever actually seen the red Sith synthetic crystals' supposed ability to "shatter" an opposing lightsaber blade? I remember reading about it as one of the reasons that Sith favor them, but I can't remember ever hearing about it happening.
We've never seen it happen, no. It's has an incredibly small chance of happening, last time I checked. Still, having some possibility of disabling your opponent's blade is better than none. 
Charlemagne posted:
I wouldn't mind seeing lightsabers "shatter" if it just meant they shorted out.
Ditto and, as far as I know, that is all it means.
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rhonderoo
Title:
Former Head Admin
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
7/16 11:47am
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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Oh, I agree that he's actively trying to purge himself of it, and that he wants to be completely immersed in the Dark Side. But I think it goes along with the fact that he does turn his back on who he was, to me, because he does feel there's no going back and he's not completely successful at intermittent times at purging Anakin. I don't think he's dissapointed that he can't go back, he just resigns himself that all he has is this Empire and he'll do whatever it takes, and be as evil and as feared (I love how Luceno works in how he figures out people have to fear him, or he's done...)as he must to keep that part in the forefront. After all, it's why he gave it all up in the first place. (Vader, not Anakin)
I think he thinks his reasons are more pure than Palpatine, when it's not just for survival... But that doesn't mean he's fooling himself that they're good. And until Luke comes along, he's fine with that. And he really doesn't give in to it until ESB.
But you have move towards that to get to the regret in his voice in ROTJ when he tells Luke that it's "too late for me".
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
7/16 12:07pm
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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Ulicus posted:
Vader realises he's been tricked into serving the dark side by Palpatine
I don't think that's really accurate. It sounds like Anakin Apologist dogma.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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Ashandarei
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
7/16 12:07pm
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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Ulicus posted:
There all along, yes - but despised. I don't think it should be "the times" Vader does squash Anakin, it should be: "Vader is always squashing Anakin, except in very exceptional circumstances, like Luke being on the scene".
I agree, although I think this doesn't necessarily preclude Vader still feeling some of the emotions that Anakin felt even before Luke came on the scene. Vader can't quash Anakin completely; Anakin's buried, and has pretty much given up on breathing free air again, but he still speaks every so often. Vader can't separate the emotions he feels from those Anakin feels, because Anakin is still a part of him; thus, Vader hates himself for being what he has become, at the same time as he hates himself for being unable to purge himself of Anakin's "useless" emotions. This "double" hatred is what I always thought made him so strong. Sure, he's angry at the galaxy, and sure, he hates Palpatine, and sure, he wants to control everything and make it better in his own eyes ... but he's also continually feeling pure, unadulterated hatred, both consciously and subconsciously, which is what gives him such power despite his maimed condition.
Ulicus posted:
For his triumph over the dark side to have been an accomplishment and have real meaning, Vader needs to have been Evil with a capital E and, not only a that, but a man who "reveled in his power" and "embraced all that he had done" - as Luceno writes. He should have, at the very least, tricked himself into believing he has no regrets. If every other Tuesday he's thinking: "I wish I could go back to the light, but it's too late for me. I hate being evil.", then it makes him look weak for having not turned back sooner.
Also very much agreed. No one would stay in any situation for so long if they had despised it since the beginning; Vader revels in it, and has quashed Anakin to the point that he feels no remorse most of the time.
Ulicus posted:
S'one of the problems I had with the first details leaked about the TFU story. We're told: "Vader realises he's been tricked into serving the dark side by Palpatine, but thinks it's too late to go back... blah blah"... that's really not good news. Vader's aware that Palpatine manipulated him, but the only thing he consciously regrets is getting slashed to pieces by Obi-Wan Kenobi, per SotE.
I don't mind it too much, so long as we substitute "rationalizes" for "thinks", because then it's clear that Vader doesn't actually want to go back.
Ulicus posted:
We've never seen it happen, no. It's has an incredibly small chance of happening, last time I checked. Still, having some possibility of disabling your opponent's blade is better than none.
Some day I'd like to see it actually happen, or discover some other benefit of the red crystal, because Alema is the only Dark Jedi recently who hasn't had a red blade, IIRC.
Charlemagne posted:
I wouldn't mind seeing lightsabers "shatter" if it just meant they shorted out.
Hmm. Well, Luke's blade "shattered" against the skin of that lava worm on Gantoris' planet. I always took that to mean that the blade's containment field for its energy shorted out, and sent packets of energy flying in all directions, sort of like blaster bolts.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
7/16 12:09pm
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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I took it to mean KJA lifted that sequence from a boss fight in the Zelda game The Adventure of Link.
Check it out, I'm serious.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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JaySkywalker01
Registered:
Oct '05
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Date Posted:
7/16 2:39pm
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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Ashandarei posted:
Ulicus posted:
We've never seen it happen, no. It's has an incredibly small chance of happening, last time I checked. Still, having some possibility of disabling your opponent's blade is better than none.
Some day I'd like to see it actually happen, or discover some other benefit of the red crystal, because Alema is the only Dark Jedi recently who hasn't had a red blade, IIRC.
It appeared to happen, on-screen, in ANH during the Ben and Vader fight. If you notice, Vader's blade passes right through Ben's blade to chop him down. Most likely a tech-glitch that they invented this massively unbelievable and never seen again retcon for.
JvS has a section where they discuss red bladed lightsabers and determine that they weren't any different from normal ones, aside from the synthetic crystal. Luke and Jaina both used synthetic crystals and they were never mentioned as being more powerful.
Refresh me on the Adventure of Link boss fight?? 
Off-hand did we ever see Vader make use of changing the length of his saber?
I also wonder if he ever learned to use a double-bladed variant.
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Jay:
"Ben Franklin said, speak softly and carry a big stick!"
Carnage:
Uhm, Ben Franklin was more like "Speak Loud, Get Wasted, and use his "Stick" on French Women."
Oh yeah....
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
7/16 3:41pm
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
Ulicus posted:
Vader realises he's been tricked into serving the dark side by Palpatine
I don't think that's really accurate. It sounds like Anakin Apologist dogma.
It's not wrong actually.
Vader thought Palpatine could save Padme.
Palpatine lied and Vader STILL lost her.
He feels cheated.
He absolutely chose the evil path but he's not exactly innocent either. Selling your friends out is selling them out, even if you sold them under false pretenses. Like finding out the person you sold a friend into slavery for wasn't able to pay up.
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BaneOfTheSith
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
7/16 10:45pm
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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i agree. they pussified Vader something aweful.
i love the idea of the Force Unleashed, but i hate that fact that someone else is going to school (almost) Vader. in fact, the sheer fact that there have not been more books with Vader just laying waste to the Jedi is insulting. the one's that have been written have him winning, true, but not in the regal manner a Dark Lord of the Sith should be.
besides, i remember reading (years ago) that Lucas had said something to the effect that the only reason Vader didn't overthrow the Emperor was because the Emperor created a psychological dependency in Vader, who needed the guidance (which kind of is played out in Episode III), but without that need (and that damn suit) Vader would schooled ol' Palp's and taken his rightful place as Lord of the galaxy.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
7/17 6:56am
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
- Date Edited:
7/17 6:59am (3 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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Charlemagne19 posted:
Palpatine lied
Not true. PPOR.
Charlemagne19 posted:
and Vader STILL lost her.
Yeah, I wonder whose fault that was? 
Charlemagne19 posted:
He absolutely chose the evil path but he's not exactly innocent either.
That is redundant.
Charlemagne19 posted:
He feels cheated.
Awwww. Poor widdle Anakin.
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_Catherine_
Registered:
Jun '07
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Date Posted:
7/17 7:11am
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
Charlemagne19 posted:
Palpatine lied
Not true. PPOR.
I assume Charles is referring to this little discrepancy in Palpatine's story:
Palpatine posted:
It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life. He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying. ... He became so powerful . . . the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep.
Palpatine posted:
To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
7/17 7:41am
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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No discrepancy. See: Dark Lord. 
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