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Author	Topic: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 7/13/08 6:01am Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
	I point out Palpatine created an Imbalance in the Force. Also, Vader was repeatedly stated to be the most powerful until Luke. The MOVIES state this stuff.
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Katana_Geldar Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU' Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 7/13/08 6:44am Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
	Charlemagne19 posted: I point out Palpatine created an Imbalance in the Force. Also, Vader was repeatedly stated to be the most powerful until Luke. The MOVIES state this stuff. Why was Palps prepared to sacrifice Vader for Luke then if Vader was the more powerful? I agree with you that Vader is more powerful, just interested in your answer. -----signature----- Jacen and the two Vergeres http://gmgeldar.wordpress.com/vergere-essay/ Now, if you don't mind, I am somewhat preoccoupied telling the laws of physics to shut up and sit down.
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_Catherine_ Registered: Jun '07	Date Posted: 7/13/08 6:48am Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
	Irandrura posted: Yes, Thrawn is sometimes disdainful of Vader (there's that lovely 'You served too long under Lord Vader, Captain. I have no qualms about accepting a useful idea merely because it wasn't my own. My position and ego are not at stake here.' moment in Heir to the Empire, for example, which highlights the differences in their command styles), but that's only to be expected, for his own approach differs. When did Vader ever do anything like what Thrawn suggests, though? Katana_Geldar posted: And Elipsis, a possible reason for Vader's 'hissy fit' is that he sees Mara as a threa to him. As he should by the way, as Palps seemed to play them off against each other. I think the idea is that it's ridiculous Vader would feel that threatened by her in the first place, and that he didn't just instantly kill her if he was. -----signature----- There ain't no rust on the happiness bus.
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 7/13/08 7:06am Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader - Date Edited: 7/13/08 7:08am (1 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
	Katana_Geldar posted: Why was Palps prepared to sacrifice Vader for Luke then if Vader was the more powerful? I agree with you that Vader is more powerful, just interested in your answer. Mostly it boils down to the fact that Luke and Vader are as one. But yes, at the time, Vader was more powerful than Luke because he had 20 years of Dark Side training and 20 years of Jedi training. Luke had 9 months on Dagobah thanks to the joys of Space/Time Mechanics. Catherine posted: I think the idea is that it's ridiculous Vader would feel that threatened by her in the first place, and that he didn't just instantly kill her if he was. Let's face it. Was Vader threatened by: Jerec Joruus C'Boath Kadann Lord Shadowspawn Blackhole Hethrir Lumiya High Inquisitor Tremayne And the dozen or more Dark Jedi more powerful than Mara Jade?
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Irandrura Registered: Feb '07	Date Posted: 7/13/08 7:20am Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
	Charlemagne19 posted: I'm not doubting that Thrawn is meant to be the Anti-Vader in most respects. It's just the problem is Zahn doesn't seem to realize that he actually created a character whose almost identical to Darth Vader in most respects. How do you figure? They're opposites. Thrawn is the consummate chessmaster. He has no special powers. Physically, he's just a guy. He can't wield a lightsabre or shoot lightning from his fingertips or do anything, really. Thrawn's strength is his mind. He plans for everything, and in the end the only real reason he failed is because of that one little factor he failed to anticipate, the noghri's treachery. Thrawn's a schemer. Vader is the opposite. Vader is Palpatine's champion, so to speak, and while Vader did create his own plans to remove Palpatine, I'd still feel comfortable saying that he wasn't the brains of the outfit. Thrawn is the villain you never meet, the one sitting back manipulating everything to his liking, the one you never fight. Vader, conversely, likes to get his hands dirty. He is the blade; the hand that wields it is Palpatine. Charlemagne19 posted: They're both cold, effecient, logical, thoughtful planners, and military strategists. I would disagree that Vader is efficient and logical, and he's definitely not a military strategist. In many ways Vader's greatest asset is his feelings. You mentioned his use of psychological warfare before, and that's an example of it. When planning, Vader thinks in terms of faces and personalities. Thrawn, on the other hand, sees factors and variables. Now, as with all generalisations, that's not to be overstated. Thrawn's love of art suggests he has an emotional side too, for example, but what we really see with the art is that Thrawn loves to take apart things to see what makes them work. He's the ultimate analyst. Find a situation, person, puzzle, etc., take it apart methodically, look at it from every angle, and come back knowing what makes it tick. Vader, I would say, is more instinctual. He's a Force-user - he trusts in his feelings and emotions. 'Your thoughts betray you', as he says, which you could never put into Thrawn's mouth. For me, it comes down to Vader's role as a hunter-enforcer. Vader's something of an inquisitor... he's Palpatine's 'go anywhere, do anything' guy. If I may be permitted a crude video game analogy, you can think of Thrawn as the RTS player and Vader as more of an RPG fan. Charlemagne19 posted: They both depend on using politics and manipulation to carry out their plans. To an extent, though considering their roles both had to be involved in politics. I would look more at the nature of their manipulations. For Vader it's all emotional and psychological - make the enemy doubt themselves. We can see him do this in the duel in ESB, and when RotJ comes around his penchant for it is his downfall ('If you will not turn to the dark side, perhaps she will...', and then Luke lost it and it was over for Vader). Thrawn likes his logical conundrums. For example, the trick with the cloaked asteroids over Coruscant. It's the opposite of Vader's style; Thrawn didn't care in the slightest how the leaders of the New Republic felt. He merely put them in a situation where they had no choice but to do what he wanted them to do. Charlemagne19 posted: They're both also prone to using capital punsihment on subordinates. That seems odd, considering that Thrawn explicitly criticises Vader's habit of that. Yes, Thrawn does execute people, but he clearly thinks Vader was far too wasteful. Charlemagne19 posted: And "Ham it up?" What MOVIES are you watching!? When does Darth Vader ham it up!? He's one of the most iconically serious cold fish in movie history! 'Apology accepted, Captain Needa.' 'I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further.' 'I am your father.' 'The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am.' Vader likes a bit of over-the-top villainy from time to time. He's not a massive ham, but he sometimes edges into supervillainesque territory. Not that I'm complaining. I like it when Vader does that. His sense of drama gives him personality. Charlemagne19 posted: I like Mara Jade fine. I just always have enjoyed the fact that Mara thought her father-figure loved her when he actually couldn't care less. If Emperor Palpatine is Ming, Mara Jade is Princess Arrura, and Vader is Klytus. In other words, when it comes down to it, Mara Jade's life is worth less than the scuffing on Palp's boots. I would say that Palpatine treats everyone that way; and that's what makes it tragic. Palpatine cares for no one but himself. Even Vader, the person he seems to have been closest to, he was completely willing to discard like a used tissue when a better apprentice came along. Palpatine doesn't see people. He sees tools. Charlemagne19 posted: My issue is that I don't believe them. You could write the most compelling Dark Jedi of all time, but the moment you say he's better than Vader is the moment I lose my suspension of disbelief. Literally nothing can convince me any Dark Sider can ever be stronger than Vader than Palpatine because it's THEIR universe and to me it automatically becomes a sign of **** writing. That's exactly the attitude I dislike. It's not 'their' universe. Vader and Palpatine are iconic characters, but they're hardly the sum total of the Star Wars universe and I don't want EU writers to feel limited to what's gone before. I mean, one of the things I most like about Legacy is how willing the authors are to muck around with tradition and express the Star Wars myth in a new way. Or consider KotOR, one of the best works of the EU for quite some time; do you think the writers should ever have thought 'hm, Revan is treading on Vader's toes, maybe we ought to change the plot?'. I don't. Vader will always be part of the archetype, but there's no reason for writers to feel shy about going beyond Vader. Charlemagne19 posted: Vader killed the Fleet Admiral of the Death's Head fleet on a whim. That's like executing Colin Powell. It's a VERY HIGH RANKING OFFICIAL. I'm fairly sure Palpatine wouldn't have minded if Vader had killed anyone in the Empire. I got the distinct impression that Palpatine didn't give a damn about anyone who wasn't Force-sensitive. It's the same problem a lot of Jedi and Sith get; they become so focused on the most visible vessels of the Force's will that they fail to see everything else (cf. Kreia). And in the end, this was a key factor Palpatine's downfall. His dismissal of Luke's 'faith in his friends'. If not for Han and Chewbacca and the droids and the ewoks and everyone on the Endor moon, Palpatine would surely have triumphed. Vader made the same mistake when Han knocked him out of the trench in ANH. (Incidentally, this is my standard answer when anyone accuses Star Wars of elitism, as David Brin did once. It doesn't all come down to the Jedi. We strongly get the message that everyone had a vital role to play, and ignoring the little guy without any special powers will lead to defeat.) Anyway, Mara Jade was a Force-sensitive, and as Palpatine bothered to make her one of his Hands and telepathically order her about, I would say that he evidently thought she was a useful tool. And Palpatine is... how to put this, Palpatine is a control freak. He hates the idea of anyone who doesn't obey him. If Vader had killed Mara, I think Palpatine would have taken a great deal of offence - not out of any particular like of her, but out of more a sense of 'you broke my toy! You disobeyed me!'. But Ozzel? I don't think people like that are really on the radar for Palpatine. Charlemagne19 posted: It's in Revenge of the Sith's novelization that Palpatine says "If you want ANYTHING you can have it." Including the Corellia sector. Would you really take Palpatine at his word? [quote=Charlemagne19]In simple terms though, Vader is the Emperor's second in command. It's just most people believe he's an advisor. [/quote] Exactly. I like to think of him as Palpatine's personal inquisitor. He is Palpatine's hand (not-the-Emperor's-Hand-but-a-normal-metaphor), and the executor of Palpatine's will. Hence the name of Vader's flagship. [quote=Charlemagne19]Vader doesn't throw hissy fits. If Mara had talked about Skywalker then she'd be dead. Seriously, there's no reason I can imagine Vader sparing her life and there's no way that Palpatine would save her. [/quote] Vader doesn't kill her because Palpatine doesn't like it when you touch his things. [quote=Charlemagne19]This is like Sauron bending down to save Saruman. They're not nice people.[/quote] Think of it more like Saruman killing the Witch-King. Sure, Sauron never had any personal attachment to the Witch-King, but he's still going to be out for Saruman's blood because Saruman killed one of Sauron's personal goons. [quote=Charlemagne19]Then Vader would probably finally kill Palpatine. Seriously, he's Palpatine's slave but he's also ostensibly Palpatine's heir.[/quote] Palpatine never had an heir. The idea of leaving power to someone else was abhorrent to him. [quote=Charlemagne19]The two maintain a faux camraderie that is as close to friendship as either of them have and you're telling me that Palpatine would mind the loss of one of his hands? He has over a hundred.[/quote] Palpatine does not want Vader pulling at his leash. As I said, Palpatine likes to have everything under control. He indulges some of Vader's plots because he's confident that Vader could never betray him. If Vader seriously started showing signs of independence, Palpatine would be most angry. Note how the Vader-Palpatine dynamic changes between ESB and RotJ. It goes from Vader wanting to enlist Luke to turn on Palpatine to: 'You don't know the power of the dark side. I must obey my master.' Vader is thoroughly dominated and his spirit is broken. Everything before that Palpatine tolerated with a mocking smile as just Vader indulging in fantasy, pretending that he's not Palpatine's slave. In the end, Palpatine is so confident of this that he thinks nothing of openly saying he wants Luke to replace Vader in front of Vader, and tortures Luke at the same time. His overconfidence is his weakness, as the line went. But the point is that Palpatine, ever since Anakin Skywalker knelt before him in the Chancellor's Office, was confident that Vader was a slave. If Vader started showing signs of free will, well, Palpatine would not be a happy bunny... [quote=Charlemagne19]Vader HAS killed Hands before. [/quote] Sa Cuis, who was sent by Palpatine to assassinate Vader and who Palpatine expected to die. [quote=Charlemagne19]Your biggets problem is you assume that Vader's limitations come from Palpatine. Vader's limitations come from VADER.[/quote] Indeed they do. His problems are his own. Palpatine merely played on them and accentuated them. [quote=Ulicus]Palpatine can create wormholes. [/quote] Dark Empire never happened. There is a mysterious period of a year or so circa 10 ABY that nothing happened in whatsoever. [quote=Charlemagne19]The MOVIES state this stuff. [/quote] Where? [quote=_Catherine_]When did Vader ever do anything like what Thrawn suggests, though?[/quote] Ozzel is the obvious one. He didn't do anything that stupid. Captain Needa is another, who wasn't at all responsible for losing the Falcon.
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_Catherine_ Registered: Jun '07	Date Posted: 7/13/08 7:28am Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader - Date Edited: 7/13/08 7:29am (1 edits total) Edited By: _Catherine_
	What were their useful ideas that he couldn't accept merely because they weren't his own? You can disagree with Vader for executing Ozzel and Needa for incompetence and out of anger, but I don't see how he was defending his position and ego by killing them. -----signature----- There ain't no rust on the happiness bus.
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Katana_Geldar Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU' Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 7/13/08 7:30am Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
	Going by your logic though, Charles, Piett should be dead too. How many times did he fail Vader? I was very surprised to see him alive in ROTJ I got the distinct impression that Palpatine didn't give a damn about anyone who wasn't Force-sensitive. Except maybe Thrawn who was not just not Force-sensitive but non-human. He gave Palpatine an Imprerial ticking-off and stated what he thought, but Palps let him live. I forget what it was about. -----signature----- Jacen and the two Vergeres http://gmgeldar.wordpress.com/vergere-essay/ Now, if you don't mind, I am somewhat preoccoupied telling the laws of physics to shut up and sit down.
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Irandrura Registered: Feb '07	Date Posted: 7/13/08 7:32am Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader - Date Edited: 7/13/08 7:34am (1 edits total) Edited By: Irandrura
	Do I need an example? Thrawn didn't say Vader executed people who had good ideas that weren't his own. He said Vader executed people needlessly and wastefully, which is true. (EDIT: Oops, this is addressed to _Catherine_)
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 7/13/08 7:35am Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader - Date Edited: 7/13/08 7:39am (2 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
	The West End Games RPG actually gave an explanation for Piett's survival being Vader's confrontation with Luke had left him a changed man. More somber, brooding, and uninterested in causal punishments of subordinates. Karen Traviss, troubled by her Mandalorians as I am, gave a better answer. She stated that Vader just naturally disliked officers and much preferred people who got to their positions by merit like Piett did. He only executed people who got people killed by their stupidity (Ozzel). Irandrura posted: Do I need an example? Thrawn didn't say Vader executed people who had good ideas that weren't his own. He said Vader executed people needlessly and wastefully, which is true. Thrawn proved to be a hypocrite then. Apparently, he never thought much of demotion either. Oddly, I'd say Thrawn killing the guy who did the Bridge Crew training was worse than Vader killing Ozzel. Ozzel destroyed entire fleets when he screwed up while the guy who trained bridge crew could just be replaced. Allegiance actually reinforces Ozzel's utter incompetence. The man panics when a few stormtroopers go missing. Irandrura posted: Palpatine never had an heir. The idea of leaving power to someone else was abhorrent to him. Revenge of the Sith's novelization explicitly contradicts that and George Lucas approved that line for line. Irandrura posted: Dark Empire never happened. There is a mysterious period of a year or so circa 10 ABY that nothing happened in whatsoever. I like it because of the reasons you dislike. It reinforces that Darth Bane would dance as Palpatine's blind jester. ;-)
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Katana_Geldar Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU' Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 7/13/08 7:43am Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
	And Piett got his position based on merit? RIGHT.... Not saying he wasn't good, just kept losing the Falcon. And he was in charge of the Executor... -----signature----- Jacen and the two Vergeres http://gmgeldar.wordpress.com/vergere-essay/ Now, if you don't mind, I am somewhat preoccoupied telling the laws of physics to shut up and sit down.
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 7/13/08 7:47am Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
	Katana_Geldar posted: And Piett got his position based on merit? RIGHT.... Not saying he wasn't good, just kept losing the Falcon. And he was in charge of the Executor... Well Piett was the guy who found Hoth. Also, it's been stated Piett was a Mustang Officer. That implies a certain level of competence. He's from the Outer Rim, not inbred Coreworld Corutrash.
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_Catherine_ Registered: Jun '07	Date Posted: 7/13/08 7:49am Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
	Irandrura posted: Do I need an example? Thrawn didn't say Vader executed people who had good ideas that weren't his own. He said Vader executed people needlessly and wastefully, which is true. "You served too long under Lord Vader, Captain. I have no qualms about accepting a useful idea merely because it wasn't my own. My position and ego are not at stake here." By even mentioning Vader at all, Thrawn is clearly trying to draw comparisons between the two of them. "Vader might kill people for having an idea he didn't think of, but I'd never do that. I'm not a self-conscious egomaniac, unlike some people I could name." Then he needlessly and wastefully murdered Cris Pieterson. -----signature----- There ain't no rust on the happiness bus.
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Ulicus Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 7/13/08 7:52am Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader - Date Edited: 7/13/08 7:59am (1 edits total) Edited By: Ulicus
	Irandrura posted: That's exactly the attitude I dislike. It's not 'their' universe. Vader and Palpatine are iconic characters, but they're hardly the sum total of the Star Wars universe and I don't want EU writers to feel limited to what's gone before. I mean, one of the things I most like about Legacy is how willing the authors are to muck around with tradition and express the Star Wars myth in a new way. Or consider KotOR, one of the best works of the EU for quite some time; do you think the writers should ever have thought 'hm, Revan is treading on Vader's toes, maybe we ought to change the plot?'. I don't. Vader will always be part of the archetype, but there's no reason for writers to feel shy about going beyond Vader. Whilst I'm generally sympathetic to Charles' position here, this isn't really a complaint of mine. It is inconsequential whether Revan was more powerful than Vader or not, because they exist in different eras: that's why Revan works. KotOR allows us to play as the "most powerful Force user in the galaxy" without stepping on anybody's toes. It's just as Karpyshyn wrote on his blog: "Power is relative". Is Bane stronger than Vader? Who knows? Contrast this with The Force Unleashed, on the other hand. They're doing the exact same thing in terms of empowering the player, yet the current indication is that this will be to Vader's detriment. If the game ends with a broken Vader at Starkiller's feet, that is stepping on Vader's toes and the height of Stuism. SPOILER: (It's even worse that Starkiller's true power seems to stem from teachings imparted by Kota, rather than Vader himself) Barring Luke and Leia (potentially), and Palpatine himself, Vader should be the most powerful being in the galaxy at that time. Absolutely unbeatable? Not in every arena, no. But in certain arenas? Yes. Zahn is criticised not because he writes "intelligent" and/or "powerful" villians, but because he appears (whether intentionally or not) to aggrandise them by undermining the iconic characters on which the franchise was built. The GFFA as a whole may not "belong" to Palpatine and Vader but the Classic Era most certainly does. It's one thing to introduce bad guys with power levels "OVER NINE THOUSAND!!!1" in 3951 BBY, but it's entirely another to do it in what is essentially the "Saga" timeframe. Irandrura posted: Dark Empire never happened. There is a mysterious period of a year or so circa 10 ABY that nothing happened in whatsoever. That doesn't fly as an defence on this board, I'm afraid. For better or worse, canon is canon. Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy has ever known. That doesn't mean I don't think Revan couldn't have kicked his ass at some point after turning back to the light, however.... -----signature----- This is an imaginary story... aren't they all supposed to fit together, though? An animated cartoon about Obi-Wan and Padawan Anakin would have made more sense. Recipient of Golden Ewok™ and Golden EwokTrooper™
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 7/13/08 7:52am Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader - Date Edited: 7/13/08 7:53am (1 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
	I like to think that fundamentally, Grand Admiral Thrawn deeply disliked what Darth Vader represented more than anything. Grand Admiral Thrawn wanted to believe the Empire represented order just like Darth Vader. However, Darth Vader was a man who did not particularly hide the corrupt and evil core of the Darkness. He didn't want to acknowledge they were the same. But yes, there's a number of ways to view Darth Vader. I view Vader as a cold and machine-like creature rather than a very emotional one. Vader rarely shows emotion. The destruction of his body on Mustafar transformed into a Jedi-like figure of stoicism and cold implacable logic. His fury is muted and hatred that's blunted by his endless pain.
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Trip Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 7/13/08 10:49am Subject: RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader - Date Edited: 7/13/08 10:54am (1 edits total) Edited By: Trip
	Irandura, are we seriously suggesting that dear old Mitty was less of a massive egotist than Lord Vader? Seriously??? Because, lol. -----signature----- RIP Jacen's Crotch 1991 - 2008
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