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Topic:
SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader (Warning: TFU Spoilers)
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
7/17 8:34am
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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Yes, yes! To Merkurian you listen!
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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Ashandarei
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
7/17 8:43am
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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Yeah, as Arawn said: of course the Sith Lord lies. That doesn't mean everything he says is a lie, or even most things. Instead, he twists the truth to mislead more often, because that generally works better. Same thing Satan does in most stories.
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What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger.
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rhonderoo
Title:
Former Head Admin
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
7/17 8:47am
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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You can twist pretty much any truth, though. It depends on your definition of a lie. Twisting the truth can be more evil than lying, especially to a vulnerable person. So, I'd say even with semantics the point is the same. Palpatine decieved Anakin. What Anakin did with it, is Anakin's choice and his fault (and goes a lot towards all of his conflictions, but that's another discussion), but the deception was there. Just like the Jedi, they were decieved (their truth was "twisted") and with the many clues, they didn't act on them because he was THAT good at "twisting" the truth.
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DT421 
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
7/17 8:49am
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
Yeah, we all know Palpatine is capable of lying. That's no great revelation. I even pointed out one of his lies above.
However, nothing that he said to Anakin about the dark side was proven to be a lie.
It was blatant deceiving though.
Same with Obi Wan and Luke.
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JaySkywalker01
Registered:
Oct '05
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Date Posted:
7/17 8:55am
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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Palpatine says:
"Learn to know the Dark Side of the Force and you will be able to save your wife from certain death."
Outright lie. Notice he doesn't say, at this point, that together they can discover the secret; he waits until after Anakin has nothing left in the galaxy except the promise of a Sith. He says "you WILL be able" an absolute statement. There's really no room for grey; he told him he COULD save his wife, and then later revealed he didn't have the full knowledge his master did regarding the power.
Outright LIE. Let's move on to something else, maybe?
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Jay:
"Ben Franklin said, speak softly and carry a big stick!"
Carnage:
Uhm, Ben Franklin was more like "Speak Loud, Get Wasted, and use his "Stick" on French Women."
Oh yeah....
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
7/17 8:56am
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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Yes.
Darth Vader's sexual tastes!
Would he have a Sephi Sith apprentice!?
Just kidding.
I'd like to actually discuss what people think of Starkiller and his relationship to Dad.
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Ashandarei
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
7/17 9:02am
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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Ah, but he didn't lie. He merely left something out.
"Learn to know the dark side of the Force as well as Plagueis did and you will be able to save your wife from certain death."
Deception, of course; not an actual lie, though.
It's like Aes Sedai from Wheel of Time, who are actually trusted less despite being known for always telling the truth.
Without knowing anything beyond that Starkiller was the son of a Jedi Vader killed and was raised in secret in a fully Sith environment ... I'd say that Starkiller equal parts hates and is fanatically devoted to his Dark Father. Kind of like Maul, but with less actual emotional connection to his master.
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JaySkywalker01
Registered:
Oct '05
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Date Posted:
7/17 9:04am
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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Charlemagne19 posted:
Yes.
Darth Vader's sexual tastes!
Would he have a Sephi Sith apprentice!?
Just kidding.
I'd like to actually discuss what people think of Starkiller and his relationship to Dad.
That's something I look forward to seeing; the relationship between the two. The creators for TFU stated that this game would be what it would have been like had Luke gone dark. I think that's accurate in the sense that Vader had a dark apprentice; however, it probably won't totally be the same. For instance, Vader saw Luke as the last spark of Anakin, his good side.
I don't think Vader would have grown in the dark side so strongly had Luke been there from the beginning.
Rather than be a catalyst for good, Starkiller might act as an agent to increase the hate, anger and aggression within Vader. You know how some kids are bullies at school because they get bullied at home? I think Vader might be taking out some of his aggression and frustration brought on from Palpatine on Starkiller.
The relationship is also similar to Darth Bane's training exercise with Zannah, where she had to tame the small animal. She taught it to trust her and depend on her, and then was forced to kill it. Vader will meet a similar choice but on a much larger scale. I imagine Palpatine knew about the SA from the beginning, but wanted Vader to develop a relationship only to tear it away from him at the right moment.
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Jay:
"Ben Franklin said, speak softly and carry a big stick!"
Carnage:
Uhm, Ben Franklin was more like "Speak Loud, Get Wasted, and use his "Stick" on French Women."
Oh yeah....
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
7/17 4:09pm
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
- Date Edited:
7/17 4:10pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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JaySkywalker01 posted:
Palpatine says:
"Learn to know the Dark Side of the Force and you will be able to save your wife from certain death."
Outright lie. Notice he doesn't say, at this point, that together they can discover the secret; he waits until after Anakin has nothing left in the galaxy except the promise of a Sith. He says "you WILL be able" an absolute statement. There's really no room for grey; he told him he COULD save his wife, and then later revealed he didn't have the full knowledge his master did regarding the power.
Outright LIE.
 There's no contradiction there at all. No "outright lie" of any kind.
Palpatine is merely being selective with the truth; in other words, he's not giving the "whole truth". And that's not lying, unless the definition of the word "lie" in the English language has suddenly been grossly expanded. ( It hasn't. )
Also see: Dark Lord.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
7/17 4:49pm
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
There's no contradiction there at all. No "outright lie" of any kind.
Palpatine is merely being selective with the truth; in other words, he's not giving the "whole truth". And that's not lying, unless the definition of the word "lie" in the English language has suddenly been grossly expanded. ( It hasn't. )
Also see: Dark Lord.
Yeah, I'm saying it is.
And I'd be right.
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Check out Halt Evil Doer!: The RPG setting for Super Heroes! Halt Evil Doer PDF: http://tinyurl.com/555axt
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of Awayness
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
7/17 5:08pm
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
- Date Edited:
7/17 5:10pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Havac
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_Catherine_ posted:
Ulicus posted:
Quite right. That Anakin chooses to interpret: "He taught his apprentice everything he knew" as "Plagueis taught the apprentice everything Plagueis knew", rather than "Plagueis taught the apprentice everything the apprentice knew" is his own darn problem.
Indeed. In the novelization, Palpatine even implies as much: "Well, to safeguard his power's existence, he teaches the path toward it to his apprentice."
The only part I never got was why Anakin, having betrayed Mace Windu under the assumption that Palpatine could save Padmé and then discovering that he had been misled, just sat back and took Palpatine's deception in stride. Even though he decided that allying with Palpatine to attempt to find Plagueis's secret was worth Mace's death, I would have expected him to have some sort of reservations about continuing to do as Palpatine said once he learned that the assumption he had been working under was false, but the movie and the novel don't show or hint at any hesitation on his part.
I think it's central to Vader's characterization and to his turn that he knows there's no going back. He turns because Palpatine's sold him on the idea that he can save Padme. Maybe he doesn't even pick up on the fact that Palpatine can't do it right away, maybe he does but doesn't really know what else to do other than press on and give it a try with Palpatine, because he helped kill Mace and can't imaging having to deal with opening up and revealing that to his friends and going on as some sort of pariah. But he goes and hacks up the Jedi Temple high on the dark side, and then there really is no going back in his mind. The other side doesn't exist anymore. It's Palpatine or nothing, and so he goes on still clinging to the hope that he can save Padme. He's resigned to it.
You do see hints of that anger and resentment flashing up, though, when he suggests to Padme that they overthrow Palpatine. He's already lost that loyalty, that trust that characterized their relationship right up to the "I am Darth Sidious" reveal. He already has that delightful Sith respect-hate loyalty-disloyalty relationship going on, where he hates Palpatine but considers him his best option anyway.
And ladies and gentlemen, let's keep it nice and civil. Talk about Vader in a nice and civil manner. Be Reaves Vader, not Zahn Vader.
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"Reality doesn't care if you believe it." - Boba Fett
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
7/17 7:40pm
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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Charlemagne19 posted:
Arawn_Fenn posted:
There's no contradiction there at all. No "outright lie" of any kind.
Palpatine is merely being selective with the truth; in other words, he's not giving the "whole truth". And that's not lying, unless the definition of the word "lie" in the English language has suddenly been grossly expanded. ( It hasn't. )
Also see: Dark Lord.
Yeah, I'm saying it is.
And I'd be right.
No, you'd be wrong. The truth is still the truth, even when it's not the "whole" truth.
Everything Palpatine said to Anakin about the dark side was true. Bitterness over Palpatine's manipulation of Anakin does not change a true statement to an untrue statement.
And I believe the stance of this board would be that Dark Lord is canon.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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_Catherine_
Registered:
Jun '07
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Date Posted:
7/17 9:07pm
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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I'll bite: what part of DL are you referring to, Arawn?
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There ain't no rust on the happiness bus. I don't understand this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=bPmN00_HUsE
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
7/18 3:10am
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
No, you'd be wrong. The truth is still the truth, even when it's not the "whole" truth.
Everything Palpatine said to Anakin about the dark side was true. Bitterness over Palpatine's manipulation of Anakin does not change a true statement to an untrue statement.
And I believe the stance of this board would be that Dark Lord is canon.
Whatever you think.
On more interesting topics, I'm a bit disappointed by Secret Apprentice's story so far. I actually was hoping we'd see some genuine affection towards his Pseudo-son that would have serious consequences for the man.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
7/18 10:45am
Subject:
RE: SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader
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_Catherine_ posted:
I'll bite: what part of DL are you referring to, Arawn?
Sidious POV.
I'm assuming that DL serves as valid evidence on this topic. Going by "the films alone", it can be said that there is no way to prove definitively one way or the other. (But this is Lit.)
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