Author Topic: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
HedecGa 
Registered: Apr '06
42354_Dusty Duck
Date Posted: 11/19/08 6:15pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Sigh...I'm ready to get this already. sad

Without specifics, does it open up the next arc or is just an end?

 

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Strika23 
Registered: Jan '08
42091_Darth Talon
Date Posted: 11/19/08 6:51pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
I thought it was a very good issue overall.

A few questions and thoughts:

- Why is Zayne in a dark jedi robe at the end of the issue? (going by the item titles in KOTOR games)
- Why does lucien look like a miraluka at the end of the issue? Did the explosion blind him?
- I guess Q'anilia is dead as well after all this, last issue didnt make it clear whether she died or not.
- Who is the Jolee clone at the end of the comic?
- What privately bought moon is Lucien on? And who are those jedi?
also,
- Seeing Malak in this issue would have closed off Zayne's story well considering he ran into him in the first issue.
- Zayne confronting the council would have been a nice scene as well.
- I was also confused with how the Republic covered up the bombings on Coruscant? I should re read that page I think.

 

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Jedi Trace 
Title:
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Registered: Dec '99
48081_Celeste Morne (41909)
Date Posted: 11/19/08 7:10pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/19/08 7:11pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Jedi Trace
I need to read it a couple more times, but this:
Master_Keralys posted:

"They're so busy with their big worries -- the little people slip through the cracks. And it's only going to get worse. That's not why I wanted to be a Jedi. Besides-- it's not just the Covenant that decides who lives and who dies. Jedi have to do it every day. Even if I get good at the rest of it -- I'll never be good at that."

applause
Perfect! Simply perfect. I can only second your applause applause .


 

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Nobody145 
Registered: Feb '07
42495_Zayne Carrick
Date Posted: 11/19/08 7:25pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
^&%&%$^&!!! I had a whole post typed up and then I hit the refresh button accidentally and I lose the whole thing!! And figures it would be the one time I didn't copy the thing to a word document, so of course I lose the whole post. Oh well, I just hope I can remember all my previous points.

Anyway, on the issue iteself, hm, while the ending was a tad anticlimatic, otherwise, I absolutely loved this issue. I thought it was a magnificent, brilliant ending to a three year arc, and if I weren't already a KotOR comic fan for life, this would definitely hook me forever. I might actually get around to playing the KotOR games eventually, just so I can understand more of the in-jokes (well, maybe by next year).

My favorite character of this issue was probably Lucien actually. He's been a pawn for so long, but we've also seen him contemplating his past, his father and his... strained relationship with his mother. I also understand now why they could post two pages for a preview instead of the usual three, since any more than those two pages and it probably would've spoiled some of the story. Its nice to see that even though Lucien was at first initially just swinging at random after his mother's death, that Zayne still managed to talk him into helping him take down Haazen. The Covenant was part of Lucien's sins, so appropiate that he finally helps deal the final blow to it. And heh, Zayne and Lucien manage to team up one for one more con, just like at Onomoth. Even Gryph was conned, and heh, Zayne has been a very good student, since he's picked up a lot from Gryph.

I liked the redempetion Lucien got by finishing off Haazen, and what I hope will be the quiet end to his story. It seems a bit out of character for Lucien to set up a farm, considering how... pro-active he was, but I guess it could be that he had been searching for a private project, and that farm fit the bill. I'm also glad to see that all the Sion hints were just red herrings or misdirection, since it looks like Lucien could've become that, but he remembered how his father blazed his own path, instead of just following what others set out for him. And this doesn't mess up any continuity, which is nice. And Lucien didn't just become a Sith like Haazen had planned for him. I liked that while he's still expecting the Jedi to fall, he's not going to stop it by doing something crazy like killing Padawans, but that he's now going to just prepare to survive it and then to help rebuild the Jedi after the doom. I wonder if that little quite covenant will be mentioned in the KotOR MMO backstory or not.

Zayne was great this issue, its nice to see him take a more active role, since I thought he seemed like a bystander for most of this arc, with all the big revelations from Haazen and with how the focus was more on Gryph last issue. Lots of great lines, like when he appealed to Lucien, and also when they climbed out of that vat. And while its not that big of a surprise, what with the covers for future issues, its still nice to see Zayne just going off on his own path. I wish we could've actually see Zayne be cleared by the Council, or even better, see Zayne meet up with Master Vandar and talk things over, but the comic is mainly Zayne's story, so its nice to see Zayne meet up with old friends, ready to set out on his new life, without having that bounty hanging over his head anymore. Although considering how dumb some bounty hunters are, that's probably not the last Zayne will hear about it.

I do wonder what happened to Shel though. Zayne mentioned that only the families of the Padawan victims were told the truth, but I don't think Shel was seen anywhere. Her brother is still somewhere else, but she with Zayne's name cleard, then that still leaves the possibility of a romance between them. Though Jarael still seems a little lost, but helping Rohlan seems to be her new current mission. And Zayne'll tag along for the ride, too, so that's nice. I thought Zayne looked pretty good in the black outfit, it seemed to follow the style of most of the rest of the Jedi Council strike team. And I think Zayne still had his lightsaber? I know its not Lucien, but can't remember if Zayne managed to grab it before he was sent flying.

Its kind of funny that after all of Haazen's plotting, he was just going to try the same old con on a bigger scale again, by killing the Jedi Council and then manipulating Lucien as a figurehead to take over the Jedi Order. Maybe it would've worked too, but I'd hope there would be more intelligent Jedi than those in the Covenant who would've caught on. And guess that sets up the Alek=Malak thing for the game, no big surprise, but at least it helps sets things up for the future.


Ah, perfect ending to a very good story. I'm looking forward to reading this in TPB format, whenever it comes out next year. Wonder where the gang will go now though. Heck, I wonder what they'll do for a ship, since the Moomo's ship was sort of wrecked and the Moomos have been paid off, finally. Oh well, Gryph will find one. Or send Slyysk to steal one. Great ending, great story, just about everything was perfect. So... the Covenant's finally down, wonder what comes next. Bu loved how it ended with Gryph plotting what to do next and poor Zayne has to deal with all of it. Oh, this was so perfect.

 

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Sikon 
Registered: Mar '06
42251_Zayne Carrick
Date Posted: 11/19/08 8:21pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/19/08 8:25pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Sikon
Nobody145 posted:
And figures it would be the one time I didn't copy the thing to a word document, so of course I lose the whole post.

Use Tomboy, damnit!

 

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Rouge77 
Registered: May '05
6464_Anakin Solo
Date Posted: 11/19/08 10:00pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/19/08 10:02pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Rouge77
I was expecting a more "epic" ending and more room for winding down this arc after the fighting had ended. The latter would have demanded an extra issue probably, but an arc of 35 issues would have deserved it.

I'm ok with Zayne finding his new life an improvent over the old and thus leaving the Jedi behind him. What I'm not so ok with is Lucien's end. His turn seems so hasty and his reasoning faulty - he didn't really knew his father or what he was like, as he was too young to remember him.

Either one of Lucien's false "deaths" would have felt a better ending to me, more fitting, and Zayne would have technically continued to keep his hands clear of blood even if Lucien's first death would have been real. Becoming a Jedi survivalist just doesn't feel something that Lucien would do. Also, his redemption creates the usual problem with them: There are just too many of them. Overall in Lucien's case I don't feel that Lucien deserved or needed to survive - that is if we won't see him again in a major role. And two false deaths in one issue is a bit much.

 

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The2ndQuest 
Title: Manager:
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Registered: Jan '00
48596_Brian Griffin (60609)
Date Posted: 11/19/08 11:14pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/19/08 11:20pm (1 edits total) Edited By: The2ndQuest
HedecGa posted:
Without specifics, does it open up the next arc or is just an end?


It feels like an end to the major arc since issue #1. It does hint that they'll be going more into the Rohlan/Demagol/Jareal plotline in upcoming issues.



Ackbar_Van_Gungan posted:
THE FREAKING SWEET HAT


Pssht- yeah, right...


Rogue_Follower posted:
JediAlly posted:
I have to wonder if this covenant exists in the Legacy era, because if it does and and Cade knew or learns about it, he just might join them.


Something like a "Hidden Temple," perhaps? mischief


shock



"Dee myths are true!"


We don't need a Celeste-like characetr for "Vector 2" now! wink grin

 

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Grey1 
Registered: Nov '00
6428_Luke Mini
Date Posted: 11/20/08 3:37am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Rouge77 posted:
Either one of Lucien's false "deaths" would have felt a better ending to me, more fitting, and Zayne would have technically continued to keep his hands clear of blood even if Lucien's first death would have been real. Becoming a Jedi survivalist just doesn't feel something that Lucien would do. Also, his redemption creates the usual problem with them: There are just too many of them. Overall in Lucien's case I don't feel that Lucien deserved or needed to survive - that is if we won't see him again in a major role. And two false deaths in one issue is a bit much.
I don't really see a problem either way. First of all, while Lucien messed up big time, he didn't embrace the dark side. The closest he got to the actual dark side was the moment when the gauntlet helped him survive the blast. Here's where he would have become a Sith but didn't. So his redemption isn't on the same level as Anakin's.

Then, when we look at the story as a self-contained story, what ending would be best? One of redemption. It's a brilliant message when the ringleader of the bad guys we saw in the beginning can change and live on in humility, to do service to the light side of the Force. This is what SW should tell over and over again. Saying that the movies lose their importance if other people get redeemed, too, is the wrong way to go. SW loses its importance if we say that there can be only one guy (or the smallest possible amount of guys, or a given ratio of one redempetion per ten kills or whatever) who can learn to correct their mistakes. While killing Lucien would also have been a fitting ending, having him learn and grow and pay by making the world a better place is the better ending by far.

And if anything takes away from the impact of the films - it's the whole concept of the EU. The galaxy hadn't seen a war since the Sith had been destroyed until the Clone Wars came along. And after the Emperor is dead, it's happily ever after again. And Anakin is the only Jedi to have a secret family and the only one to start training at a higher age. Now, where does that leave everything I've read in the EU?


SithStarSlayer posted:
Grey1 posted:
- Lucien's exile planet: As I mentioned the Jedi there wearing Obi-Wan robes, and Lucien mentions the future after coming tribulations, it seems as if this might be an important core of the Jedi Order after Nihilus.
How can any of them survive? We can forget about Zayne for now; since he's got coverage, it's their continued existence that will REALLY fly in the face of the Exhile being the last one. Unless that was hubris all along.
It's the nature of EU that there is always another one. And having one or two groups of non-official Jedi plus some council masters survive Nihilus isn't nearly as bad as having hundreds of Jedi surviving Palpatine's purge and then coming back 100 years later to rule the show. In my opinion.

It's implied really heavily that Lucien is doing something fundamentally good with this Hidden Covenant (Temple?). He's doing a service to the Jedi and to the light side of the Force by ensuring the continued existence of the Jedi Order. Coming from this whole prophecy background, he knows as well as we that something's gonna happen (Mandalorian War, Revan's War, Nihilus' Purge) and that it can't be stopped (which it can't because we've already played the games wink ). So what he does is cheating destiny by circumventing it - hiding a Jedi Order backup for the future.

Unless that lava planet has anything to do with Malachor, which wouldn't cast the best light on his group's future. Just kidding. beatup

 

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Nobody145 
Registered: Feb '07
42495_Zayne Carrick
Date Posted: 11/20/08 4:16am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
I sometimes wonder whether that planet was just an illusion, or a vision. We see it when his arms are raised, as if he's about to embrace a Sith title, but then he pulls back, remembering his father and his mother and then we see the Jedi harvesting and there's no red planet in the sky. Or maybe I'm just psycho-analyzing stuff too much. But otherwise, yeah, I see Lucien as improving himself, he's finally a better person, and his secret covenant will preserve the Jedi ways for after the next purge.

And the games actually said the Exile was the last Jedi? Well, I can understand calling her that, but saying anyone's the last Jedi is kind of silly. Especially since the Exile goes off into the Unknown Regions following Revan so somebody else had to rebuild the Jedi Order, even though most of the named Jedi characters are dead or have disappeared. I'm not that familiar with KotOR II, but I know any Council survivors were killed en masse, and others like Jolee just vanished between games. But anyway, yeah, saying "last of the Jedi" is kind of silly, since Luke was last of the Jedi... then survivors started coming out of the woodworks. A few Masters or Knights here and there is fine, but if Palpatine, with a big Empire somewhat focused on anti-Jedi sentiment can't wipe out all of them in 20 years, I doubt all of them could die so quickly in less than a decade. Although that decade involved lots of wars, but still.

 

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Sinrebirth 
Title: Sith Emperor of the SWC
Registered: Nov '04
48116_Jacen Solo (41909)
Date Posted: 11/20/08 4:40am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Palpatine missed two or three dozen Jedi, at most, in a Jedi Purge which accounted for the majority of the remaining two hundred Jedi. So, not all bad, and, even then, more Force users were cropping up all the time.

To the Exile being the 'last Jedi'. The entire plot focused on recovering the Jedi Council, and Bastila was certainly around. The Covenant surviving post-Nihilus simply makes the recovery of the Jedi in time for the Great War that much more acceptable. And that I can live with. tongue

 

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Jmacq1 
Registered: May '05
23590_Darth Revan
Date Posted: 11/20/08 5:38am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/20/08 5:39am (1 edits total) Edited By: Jmacq1
I haven't read the issue, but....

If what I'm reading is correct (and I'm understanding it clearly), Q'anilia was either already dead or would have been killed in the bombardment of the Draay Estate, wouldn't she? Unless someone evacuated her prior to that? Otherwise I'd imagine we'd have seen her among Lucien's "New Covenant."

 

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Zorrixor 
Registered: Sep '04
42757_Prince Xizor
Date Posted: 11/20/08 6:00am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
I think the thing to keep in mind when thinking about the Exile as the "last Jedi" is that it never meant the "last Jedi alive". KOTOR2 was always deeper than that, and the plot itself is pretty clear on the fact the Exile is far from the last surviving Jedi.

What marks her apart, however, is that she is the last Jedi Knight still battling the Sith: the rest had all thrown in the towel and given up. That's why Kreia treated the Council with the utmost contempt; they were just, simply, out of touch with reality. They complained about everything, refused to do anything, then when the pooodoo (Nihilus) hit the fan, they just ran away and hid until someone else (Exile) sorted it out.

Then, when the Exile cleaned up their mess, they still treated her like dirt.

I'd argue its probably more accurate to go the Exile is the "last true Jedi Knight" or something. There are those like Bastila and Revan still alive too, but Revan had left the Order to do his own thing and Bastila... who knows.

 

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Charlemagne19 
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 11/20/08 6:05am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Zorrixor posted:
I'd argue its probably more accurate to go the Exile is the "last true Jedi Knight" or something. There are those like Bastila and Revan still alive too, but Revan had left the Order to do his own thing and Bastila... who knows.


I think it's important to treat Kreia like the nutter she is.

The Jedi Order is scattered and in hiding. Sion thinks the Jedi Exile is the last living one, but the truth is probably closer to the fact that it is like Palpatine's Empire after Order 66. There's probably a few hundred spread across the galaxy and they're trying their best to do what's good in some cases (Dxun) and not in others (Atris)

It's just Nihilus and Sion are seemingly invincible and immortal.

Vilifying the Jedi is just silly.

 

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Vrook_Lamar 
Registered: May '08
6210_Max Rebo
Date Posted: 11/20/08 7:20am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
A lava planet? Well, there are ruined Jedi Enclaves on Mustafar. But then again, the moon would have to disappear at some point, somehow.

 

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DarthStymi 
Registered: Jan '02
7279_Darth Vader
Date Posted: 11/20/08 7:51am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Loved the issue. Great conclusion (I know vague).

Looking forward to where the story will go next. I'm sure JJM has some interesting things up his sleeve.

But what really worries me is Brian Ching.

His work is awesome, and so perfect for Zayne and the gang.

Anyone know if he will continue with the series now that the "main" story is complete?

 

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