Author Topic: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
SithStarSlayer  8619 posts
Registered: Oct '03
40005_Quinlan Vos
Date Posted: 11/20/08 12:04pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
TNPredsFan posted:
But the Order doesn't DESERVE him.
Why should he show any loyalty to an order that failed him?


He shouldn't.

Charlemagne19 posted:
I don't like the idea of the Jedi Order being this hopelessly flawed and need to be destroyed group.

They're still heroes at heart. It's Malak whose group are thoroughly evil and will be consumed by their own hatred.
Then every last one of them should be tried by fire, and let the chaf burn...

"Wipe them out... ALL of them."

 

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cbagmjg  431 posts
Registered: Jul '06
41233_Darth Nihilus
Date Posted: 11/20/08 12:08pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
The lava like planet could also be Vjun.

 

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Charlemagne19  26812 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 11/20/08 12:10pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
SithStarSlayer posted:

Then every last one of them should be tried by fire, and let the chaf burn...

"Wipe them out... ALL of them."

[/quote]

Which is what Revan does to the Sith.

Allowing the Jedi Order to heal...until KOTOR 2.

 

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Oissan  18857 posts
Title: Former CR of GSFF North
Registered: Mar '01
6210_Max Rebo
Date Posted: 11/20/08 12:18pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/20/08 12:18pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Oissan
Charlemagne19 posted:
I don't like the idea of the Jedi Order being this hopelessly flawed and need to be destroyed group.

They're still heroes at heart. It's Malak whose group are thoroughly evil and will be consumed by their own hatred.



Well, you can't change what the games say about the Jedi Order. The Order was flawed, and it failed because of it. It wouldn't make any sense whatsoever to suddenly change the Order into something it wasn't at that point, nor would it make sense to turn Zayne's character around by choosing an Order which turned against him, above his friends.

Apart from that, it would be a waste of character, because the Jedi Order gets decimated rather quickly a short while later. I agree that there should be some Jedi like Zayne in the Order, it doesn't get portrayed right most of the time, but the period around the events of KOTOR is a pretty bad time for that.
In the case of Zayne, having him around in the rebuilding Jedi Order after KOTOR II would be a much better fit, than forcing him into the KOTOR-era Jedi Order.

They have to start writing a Jedi Order that isn't too stupid and completely out of it, if they were as incompetent and stuck up as most of the EU makes them out to be, they never would have lasted as long as they did. But that has to start at a point that makes sense, and neither the KOTOR-comics nor the first game are such a point. You can't turn things upside down shortly before everything goes down the drain anyway.

 

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Jeff_Ferguson  1665 posts
Registered: May '06
42357_Antares Draco
Date Posted: 11/20/08 12:32pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Charlemagne19 posted:
I don't like the idea of the Jedi Order being this hopelessly flawed and need to be destroyed group.

They're still heroes at heart. It's Malak whose group are thoroughly evil and will be consumed by their own hatred.



That's an... interesting take, to say the least. We know that they'll be consumed by dark, but thoroughly evil? I wonder if you think that Kyp Durron's faction in the early NJO was thoroughly evil for wanting to take the fight to the invaders.

What Revan and Malak are doing right now isn't thoroughly evil or even inherently dark --- Revan ends up going dark primarily due to the dark side energy on Malachor V, from what I understand, and then embraces Sith teachings in order to stop the True Sith.

Malak's group thoroughly evil? No, right now they're just doing what needs to be done. They're like the Imperial Knights of the KOTOR Era. grin Less dogma and more action.

DarthStymi posted:
Yeah, I saw Ching would not be around for those issues. If I am remembering correctly, I think my last impression of Bong's work was that is was too cartoon-ish for KoTOR (hope I'm not confusing his work with somebody else's).

I will have to check out Dean's website though. Thanks!

Anyone have any insider scoop if Ching will return?


Yeah, that's Bong Dazo you're thinking of. Every time I see praise for his art in the letters columns, my mind is boggled.

Brian Ching was schedule to go to Rebellion after doing The Force Unleashed, but that was before the hiatus of the series. I wonder if he's still set to do it when it returns.

Master_Keralys posted:
Jeff - those are fairly standard Jedi robes of the day. I can't find a screencap at the moment, but those are pretty standard black robes for Jedi at this point. I never had Jolee Bindo or my character wear anything else unless I had very good reason to, because they just look stinking cool. Especially with Bindo using a purple lightsaber. mischief


Ah, brilliant. Thanks.

JohnJacksonMiller posted:
Thanks for the kind words, folks. I'll probably have some thoughts on the ish on my blog tomorrow, but to something Jeff had asked...

"How certain was Zayne that the Kressh gauntlet would protect Lucien from the turbolaser blasts?" We left it for readers to interpret, but if you imagine the exchange as simply "You get the Gauntlet from Haazen. I'll get you and Gryph clear -- and I'll deal with him," then Zayne may not know exactly what Lucien has in mind. The control device and Gauntlet are on the same hand -- with the Gauntlet gone, Zayne might have expected Lucien to then engage Haazen in melee until the Jedi arrived. If Zayne had hung onto the control device (which he dropped), the turbolasers wouldn't have entered into it.


Ah, brilliant. Thanks.

 

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Jedi Merkurian  11588 posts
Registered: May '00
6372_Mace Windu
Date Posted: 11/20/08 12:57pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Oissan posted:
Well, you can't change what the games say about the Jedi Order. The Order was flawed, and it failed because of it. It wouldn't make any sense whatsoever to suddenly change the Order into something it wasn't at that point, nor would it make sense to turn Zayne's character around by choosing an Order which turned against him, above his friends.

Apart from that, it would be a waste of character, because the Jedi Order gets decimated rather quickly a short while later. I agree that there should be some Jedi like Zayne in the Order, it doesn't get portrayed right most of the time, but the period around the events of KOTOR is a pretty bad time for that.
In the case of Zayne, having him around in the rebuilding Jedi Order after KOTOR II would be a much better fit, than forcing him into the KOTOR-era Jedi Order.

Bolded for emphasis, quoted for truth.

 

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Charlemagne19  26812 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 11/20/08 1:14pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/20/08 1:21pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
Well, you can't change what the games say about the Jedi Order. The Order was flawed, and it failed because of it. It wouldn't make any sense whatsoever to suddenly change the Order into something it wasn't at that point, nor would it make sense to turn Zayne's character around by choosing an Order which turned against him, above his friends.

Pardon? The games are pretty clear it was Revan and the Sith who destroyed the Jedi Order. They're the bad guys, not the Jedi.

That's an... interesting take, to say the least. We know that they'll be consumed by dark, but thoroughly evil? I wonder if you think that Kyp Durron's faction in the early NJO was thoroughly evil for wanting to take the fight to the invaders.

I don't believe the Dark Side transforms a person magically. Ergo, Revan's faction is filled with a bunch of people who fought for the power and glory rather than justice.

 

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SithStarSlayer  8619 posts
Registered: Oct '03
40005_Quinlan Vos
Date Posted: 11/20/08 2:22pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Charlemagne19 posted:
I don't believe the Dark Side transforms a person magically.
Tell that to the man who scripted Vader to go in and whack younglings a mere two-minutes after joining the dark-side club. tongue

 

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Charlemagne19  26812 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 11/20/08 2:56pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
SithStarSlayer posted:
Charlemagne19 posted:
I don't believe the Dark Side transforms a person magically.
Tell that to the man who scripted Vader to go in and whack younglings a mere two-minutes after joining the dark-side club. tongue


Oh like Vader hadn't killed kids before!

 

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Vrook_Lamar  977 posts
Registered: May '08
6210_Max Rebo
Date Posted: 11/20/08 3:28pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/20/08 3:36pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Vrook_Lamar
Charlemagne19 posted:
[hl=black]the fact is that the last thing we need in the EU is a nother Jolee Bendu.



What on earth is wrong with Jolee Bindo? He was like, the only nice Jedi in KotOR 1 (as opposed to the zero nice Jedi in KotOR 2, lol).

Oissan posted:
Well, you can't change what the games say about the Jedi Order. The Order was flawed, and it failed because of it. It wouldn't make any sense whatsoever to suddenly change the Order into something it wasn't at that point, nor would it make sense to turn Zayne's character around by choosing an Order which turned against him, above his friends.


You mean what Kreia says about the Jedi order.

KotOR 1 is hardly an anti-Jedi game. At most, it blaims the council for failing to stop people from becoming Sith. But on the other hand, the council is right that charging off to stop the Mandalorians was a bad idea in that it created the Sith again. The Mandalorian War never caused the same kind of devastation as the Jedi Civil War did.

KotOR 2 changes the Jedi Council into some kind of Straw Man in order to allow for "moral ambiguity" but even then what kills the Jedi are Nihilus' uber powers.

 

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Indigo45879  57 posts
Registered: Oct '08
43279_Sith Trooper
Date Posted: 11/20/08 4:27pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Charlemagne19 posted:
Well, you can't change what the games say about the Jedi Order. The Order was flawed, and it failed because of it. It wouldn't make any sense whatsoever to suddenly change the Order into something it wasn't at that point, nor would it make sense to turn Zayne's character around by choosing an Order which turned against him, above his friends.

Pardon? The games are pretty clear it was Revan and the Sith who destroyed the Jedi Order. They're the bad guys, not the Jedi.

That's an... interesting take, to say the least. We know that they'll be consumed by dark, but thoroughly evil? I wonder if you think that Kyp Durron's faction in the early NJO was thoroughly evil for wanting to take the fight to the invaders.

I don't believe the Dark Side transforms a person magically. Ergo, Revan's faction is filled with a bunch of people who fought for the power and glory rather than justice.



All i've seen alek/malak do in the past 35 issues has been for the light and justice. The whole "Glory" thing dosn't seem to have any factual basis, they mostly seem to be those who want to stop the war and the killing before the republic is overrun. The jedi don't strike me as a group that would want a warrior army in control of the galaxy. Besides that, remember Revan uncovered the genocide at Cathar, it really convinced a lot of jedi that the mandos needed to be stopped.

 

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MercenaryAce  2758 posts
Registered: Aug '05
8117_Y-Wing Pilot
Date Posted: 11/20/08 4:31pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
From what I remeber, Revan and his followers went bad because they increasingly started using the Mandolorians own brutal tactics against them.

 

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Arawn_Fenn  10326 posts
Registered: Jul '04
46079_Darth Plagueis
Date Posted: 11/20/08 5:01pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Charlemagne19 posted:
I don't believe the Dark Side transforms a person magically.


I think it does in-universe.

 

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Grey1  1710 posts
Registered: Nov '00
8038_Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan
Date Posted: 11/20/08 5:11pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Ackbar_Van_Gungan posted:
The planet in question is ambiguous, the only descriptor being "Someplace else" or "Somewhere else" or something similar.
What about - Endor? grin

Originally, Endor was meant to be the moon of a planet that had been destroyed (ROTJ novel). Here, the planet is dying, and the Jedi plant the future trees of the planet... beatup

 

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RevantheJediMaster  2439 posts
Registered: Jun '05
40334_Boba Fett
Date Posted: 11/20/08 5:26pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Charlemagne19 posted:
Well, you can't change what the games say about the Jedi Order. The Order was flawed, and it failed because of it. It wouldn't make any sense whatsoever to suddenly change the Order into something it wasn't at that point, nor would it make sense to turn Zayne's character around by choosing an Order which turned against him, above his friends.

Pardon? The games are pretty clear it was Revan and the Sith who destroyed the Jedi Order. They're the bad guys, not the Jedi.

That's an... interesting take, to say the least. We know that they'll be consumed by dark, but thoroughly evil? I wonder if you think that Kyp Durron's faction in the early NJO was thoroughly evil for wanting to take the fight to the invaders.

I don't believe the Dark Side transforms a person magically. Ergo, Revan's faction is filled with a bunch of people who fought for the power and glory rather than justice.



The games don't seem to support your case given that they seem to suggest, at least to me, that the Revanchists started out with good intentions. It was said that the Mandalorian War changed Revan and Malak (it would follow that their followers were also likely changed) in that they began taking on the characteristics and tactics of their mandalorian enemies. Even if you treat the 3,663 BBY date given by the Chronicles of the Old Republic for Revan's first visit to Malachor as reliable, which would be a questionable thing to do given some of the continuity gaffes it makes, it still doesn't mean that Revan started out with ill intentions. Also, the Reavnchists that have been portrayed in the comic thus far like Alek do not seem to be in it for power and glory.

Yes, Revan was behind the destruction of most of the order, but it doesn't mean the Jedi Order at this time wasn't highly flawed. I just don't see how the Revanchists are evil for wanting to fight the Mandalorians. Perhaps, if the senior Jedi had been there to guide the Revanchists then the destruction of the order may have never happened, but in the very least they likely would have curtailed some of the massive loss of life that resulted from the Mandalorian Wars. The Revanchists certainly become evil, but they certainly don't seem like they are at this point in the comic.

 

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