Jedi Council Forums - Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)

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Author	Topic: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Indigo45879 Registered: Oct '08	Date Posted: 11/20/08 5:32pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	MercenaryAce posted: From what I remeber, Revan and his followers went bad because they increasingly started using the Mandolorians own brutal tactics against them. well it was mostly the dark side energies from malachor, plus all the sith teachings revan picked up. However, using the mandos own tactics against them seems like a way to fight fire with fire -----signature----- proud KOTOR and legacy era fan. Revan fanboy Kreia: "Revan was power. it was like staring into the heart of the force"
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 11/20/08 5:38pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/20/08 5:40pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
	Indigo45879 posted: well it was mostly the dark side energies from malachor, plus all the sith teachings revan picked up. However, using the mandos own tactics against them seems like a way to fight fire with fire Revan is pretty much indicated to have RESISTED the energies of Mallachor. Given that the Mandalorians are one of the most evil races in the galaxy, fighting fire with fire means pretty much they're bad bad people. RevanTheJedi posted: Yes, Revan was behind the destruction of most of the order, but it doesn't mean the Jedi Order at this time wasn't highly flawed. I just don't see how the Revanchists are evil for wanting to fight the Mandalorians. Perhaps, if the senior Jedi had been there to guide the Revanchists then the destruction of the order may have never happened, but in the very least they likely would have curtailed some of the massive loss of life that resulted from the Mandalorian Wars. The Revanchists certainly become evil, but they certainly don't seem like they are at this point in the comic. The Revanchists are evil because they become the Sith. They stomp on democracy, murder their fellow Jedi, and use Mandalorian tactics before cutting a bloody swath on the galaxy. Were they always evil? No. But they're not a nice bunch of people even at the start since they were corrupted by the war. Which implies something wrong to begin with (See Anakin)
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RevantheJediMaster Registered: Jun '05	Date Posted: 11/20/08 6:25pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/20/08 6:28pm (1 edits total) Edited By: RevantheJediMaster
	Charlemagne19 posted: Indigo45879 posted: well it was mostly the dark side energies from malachor, plus all the sith teachings revan picked up. However, using the mandos own tactics against them seems like a way to fight fire with fire Revan is pretty much indicated to have RESISTED the energies of Mallachor. Given that the Mandalorians are one of the most evil races in the galaxy, fighting fire with fire means pretty much they're bad bad people. RevanTheJedi posted: Yes, Revan was behind the destruction of most of the order, but it doesn't mean the Jedi Order at this time wasn't highly flawed. I just don't see how the Revanchists are evil for wanting to fight the Mandalorians. Perhaps, if the senior Jedi had been there to guide the Revanchists then the destruction of the order may have never happened, but in the very least they likely would have curtailed some of the massive loss of life that resulted from the Mandalorian Wars. The Revanchists certainly become evil, but they certainly don't seem like they are at this point in the comic. The Revanchists are evil because they become the Sith. They stomp on democracy, murder their fellow Jedi, and use Mandalorian tactics before cutting a bloody swath on the galaxy. Were they always evil? No. But they're not a nice bunch of people even at the start since they were corrupted by the war. Which implies something wrong to begin with (See Anakin) I think it is indicated that Revan was able to resist the dark energies on Malachor only in so much as not being consumed by them (it doesn't mean they didn't influence him though). Instead, he was able to use them to his own advantage. It also seems to be implied that Revan didn't fully embrace Sith teaching until he found Trayus Academy likely due to the fact that he also discovered the continuing existence of the True Sith there. Yes, it was noted that Revan and Malak began using Mandalorian tactics and taking on Mandalorian characteristics, but we don't know to what extent yet and don't even know when they start to either for that matter. I'm not saying they are justified, but perhaps they saw this as their best path or only path to success in the Mandalorian War. They may not have even realized that they were turning into the very enemy they were fighting, which inevitably would make them more susceptible to a fall. It's also possible that if the Council had decided to take part in the war then this use of Mandalorian tactics may never have transpired. Additionally, Revan seems to be a fan of the ends-justifying-the-means doctrine as a Sith, but we also don't know when he adopts this or if he had always followed it. An adherence to that doctrine doesn't exactly mean one is evil, but the two are often coupled together. According to your logic if one becomes evil then that means they have always been evil? Why couldn't the Revanchists have been nice when they entered into the war? You acknowledge they weren't always evil, but then you contradict yourself in my opinion by saying they are evil because they become evil. It's true that Anakin becomes evil, but I think it's just as valid to say that he was not evil during the Clone Wars. They seem to be nice at this moment in the comics, so you appear to be mistaken in this case. At this moment in the comics it could be said that the Revanchists are the good guys because they are opposed to the invading Mandalorians and haven't shown any clear signs of being evil yet. -----signature----- 2009 or 2010 Star Wars LAS featuring Boba Fett! Fall 2008 Clone Wars 3D Animated Series comes out! *August 15, 2008 Star Wars returns to theaters!
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JohnJacksonMiller Title: Writer: -Empire -KOTOR -Precipice Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 11/20/08 6:38pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/20/08 6:40pm (2 edits total) Edited By: JohnJacksonMiller
	Update or two -- finally had a chance to put some thoughts on this issue online back at my site. I'm also at Daishocon this weekend here in Wisconsin, presuming my cold doesn't kill me. Bring chicken soup — or, at least, hand sanitizer. Really quickly to the topic of what Zayne's experience says about the Order — draw what conclusions you choose, of course, but remember it's a big Order and a big galaxy and there's a lot of stuff going on. One of my favorite comic books, well worth looking up, is Claremont's Avengers Annual #10. Mighty expensive (as it's the first appearance of Rogue) -- but notable because it addresses a Very Bad Thing that the Avengers let happen to Ms. Marvel when they thought they were Doing The Right Thing. It's pretty gut-wrenching to read, because the Avengers, realizing what they've done, don't really feel like heroes any more. And of course they are, they're just mortal -- and in this case, in this one time, they blew it. It's one for the balance sheet. Zayne Carrick might well be a case to argue either way in debates about the Order -- and argue away -- but he's one case, and a pretty unusual one, at that. We don't see the recriminations with the Council immediately in this issue -- though I know it would have been interesting to -- in part because of what Zayne says. It's not just them, it's him. -----signature----- Best, John Jackson Miller Fiction: http://www.farawaypress.com Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/jjmfaraway Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/johnjacksonmiller Research: http://www.comicschronicles.com Webcomic: http://www.swordandsarcasm.com
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 11/20/08 7:01pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	That was a silly issue. Ms. Marvel was going to marry her son. Nothing wrong with that. Why would they object?
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HedecGa Registered: Apr '06	Date Posted: 11/20/08 7:37pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	JJM's Faraway Press Blog posted: The galaxy may get its Darth Sion, but not from him. Well. There it is then. Good to get a definitive answer from time to time -----signature----- "The Coming Evil, Book One: The Strange Man" available NOW at http://www.thecomingevil.blogspot.com Author of the Dusty Duck databank entry - The 71st "Greatest Thing About Star Wars...Ever!" - SW Insider 100 Co-author of the Silya Shessaun databank
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JohnJacksonMiller Title: Writer: -Empire -KOTOR -Precipice Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 11/20/08 9:02pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/20/08 9:05pm (1 edits total) Edited By: JohnJacksonMiller
	Charlemagne19 posted: That was a silly issue. Ms. Marvel was going to marry her son. Nothing wrong with that. Why would they object? Yeah, good old Avengers #200 (the issue they fixed with the Annual story). Quite the fandom scandal in its day -- though as a kid I just remembered the dinosaurs in the streets... HedecGa posted: Well. There it is then. Good to get a definitive answer from time to time Well, Lucien said it the best he could in the book. He could hardly say, "Hey, you know that guy that I don't know exists? Ain't me." But we tried to put it across to those who knew to look. -----signature----- Best, John Jackson Miller Fiction: http://www.farawaypress.com Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/jjmfaraway Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/johnjacksonmiller Research: http://www.comicschronicles.com Webcomic: http://www.swordandsarcasm.com
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Gratulor Registered: May '08	Date Posted: 11/20/08 10:59pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	Great issue. Did that planet look like Sullust to anyone else? Because this moon looks pretty much like Sulon to me. -----signature----- "Allir fara, þá feigðin kallar. "
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DarthAdamentum Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 11/21/08 3:53am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	Zayne ought to be Revan at some point.. he's got the look of it... -----signature----- And in their hearts, they never forgot the Jedi. The hatred for the Jedi Order burns in their veins like fire, and echoes in their teachings.
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 11/21/08 6:28am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	There's a fun irony if Lucien's new Covenant is actually the foundation for the Prequel Jedi. I.e. While Lucien has helped the Jedi survive, at heart, he's still passed on horrible lessons.
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HedecGa Registered: Apr '06	Date Posted: 11/21/08 6:50am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	I really like Lucien now. I'm curious to see him again. It raises an interesting question about fate and choice, though. Like the issue said (and JJM said in his blog), the galaxy is going to get its Darth Sion. It could have been Lucien, but he chose to leave that path. But that doesn't change the fact that Sion will come, albeit through a different vessel. It kind of made me think of Jacen in LOTF and the discussion that he saw the future and knew that if he didn't become a Sith, then Luke would. Or in Anakin's case, Qui-Gon knew that finding him was the will of the Force, but Anakin was destined (I say "destined" because the OT was already made) to be Vader. I suppose its part of the whole balance thing, but it seems like the Force is making sure that there is a Sith. SOMEONE is going to have to be Sion and Vader and Caedus, but, at least in Lucien's case, he was able to make sure it wasn't him. Kind of worth a ponder. At least to me. -----signature----- "The Coming Evil, Book One: The Strange Man" available NOW at http://www.thecomingevil.blogspot.com Author of the Dusty Duck databank entry - The 71st "Greatest Thing About Star Wars...Ever!" - SW Insider 100 Co-author of the Silya Shessaun databank
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beccatoria Title: Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 11/21/08 7:21am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	So, I'm conflicted. On the one hand, I'm surprisingly and deeply sad that Zayne's not a Jedi. Because what I love about him is that he's such a hero, but more than that he's a Jedi. He's a Jedi in the way I haven't looked at a character and gone, "Ah, this is what it means to be a Jedi," since Qui-Gon Jinn. On the other hand, no, I wouldn't want him to just slip into the Order as one more Knight, and I don't even think it's his job to reform the Order - were he a Jedi, he'd ought to be a Knight Errant, not someone reforming and redirecting the Order itself. That way lies "What do we do with him these days," Luke Skywalkerness. So yeah, this is me wanting to have my cake and eat it. I guess I wanted him to strike out on his own the way he does, but to either be given or simply claim the title of Jedi because it's what he does. Because that's what he did and that's what was powerful about a lot of his early journey to me: that he was exiled from the Order but refused to give up on his identity. Now, I totally concede it's a personal interpretation; that what Zayne refused to give up on is his innate decency and doing the right thing, not anything specifically called "Jedi". But maybe, like Charlie, I don't want the Jedi to be that far gone that he has to leave the name behind. I want him to claim it for his own and do what he wants with it, not excise it from his identity. Yeah. It doesn't make me sad that Zayne doesn't want to be a Jedi Knight under the Orders of the Council; it makes me sad he doesn't want to be a Jedi. And yeah, that word is powerful in the universe and it means something. As much as we can argue he's a "Jedi just not a Jedi Knight," his decision not to take that word with him is also symbolic and important. And it makes me sad. Still, he took a lightsaber (I'll miss his old one! They went through so much together!), so I'm hoping that he is going to hold onto his Jedi heritage, just on his own terms? -----signature----- legatus imperatoris britanniæ superior REMEMBER: X-WING: WEDGE'S GAMBLE DISCUSSION STARTS IN DECEMBER! Han's a girl, so I got a Golden Ewok.
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Trip Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 11/21/08 7:22am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	First: excellent issue all around. I'm kinda disappointed that Zayne won't be falling in with the Crusaders anytime soon, but I'll admit that that's mostly because I want to see more of Malak and Revan. Ah, well; there's still a good chance Jarael will wind up with them. Second: I'm thinking Lucien's hideout is going to come into play after the Dark Wars are over-- in other words, they'll from the core of Mical's restored Order. It definitely isn't a metaphysical Heaven/Hell, because The Force Doesn't Work That Way, goshdarnit. In any case, I think it's a superb end to Lucien's arc, and probably the greatest moment in the series thus far. -----signature----- RIP Jacen's Crotch 1991 - 2008
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whiskers Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 11/21/08 8:09am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	Gratulor posted: Great issue. Did that planet look like Sullust to anyone else? Because this moon looks pretty much like Sulon to me. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Sullustfromsulon.jpg Now that you mention it... It does look somewhat similar. -----signature----- No Signature Needed
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 11/21/08 8:25am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	whiskers posted: Gratulor posted: Great issue. Did that planet look like Sullust to anyone else? Because this moon looks pretty much like Sulon to me. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Sullustfromsulon.jpg Now that you mention it... It does look somewhat similar. Lucien is Kyle Katarns' ancestor!
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