Author Topic: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
AdmiralNick22  6940 posts
Registered: May '03
7783_Ackbar
Date Posted: 11/22/08 1:21pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Fantastic issue. grin

I am curious, however, about peoples interpetation of the final scence with Lucien. Are we supposed to feel hope that he has a secret Jedi enclave to weather the coming storm, or is it insidious that there is yet another Jedi faction out there?

--Adm. Nick

 

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Master_Keralys  6379 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Oct '03
39907_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 11/22/08 1:22pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/22/08 1:23pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Master_Keralys
Charles posted:
Revan is a Sith. The Ultimate Evils of the Galaxy.

Sure, maybe you can argue that in some mythological sense, at least as pertains to the end of Bane's sequence (read: Sidious and Vader). Not so much in general, though. These are villains, but claiming that Sith are automatically worse than anyone else on that basis is ludicrous. If the Mandalorians committed greater evils than Revan did, they would have been more evil than him.
Charles posted:
I remind you that the Sith under Revan also committed the massacre of Carth's home planet. True, Malak did that one but it was under Revan's command. Next, I point out that Darth Revan's Empire resulted directly in Darth Malak's Empire. Which, I point out was responsible for the massacre of the ecumenopolis of Taris (a causalty rating in the trillions almost undoubtedly). Probably the worst atrocity until Humbardine.

Kay, granted on the first count, and that one only. The second count is specious, fallacious reasoning and quite irrelevant. What Malak chose to do after Revan was "dead" has nothing to do with how evil Revan was. On the first point, I agree that it's evil. It doesn't, however, make him automatically worse than the Mandos. It definitely occurred under Revan's watch, but we also still don't know exactly what his reaction to it was, since Malak ordered it - and frankly, it runs contrary to all of Revan's military doctrine as far as we know it. For all we know, the response could range anywhere between applauding it and chopping off Malak's jaw for it. We simply don't know. So you can't use that one, either.
Charles posted:
As for Revan's motivations, the Holocron of Darth Bane also shows Kreia was lying. Revan cared only for power for its own sake, not protecting the galaxy as a Sith.

No, it doesn't show that. It shows that Revan argued as much in a Holocron to other Sith. It shows that at some point he believed that one had to take power for its own sake. It may mean that at some point he outright adopted that view. It's still not the ultimate cause of his actions.

ETA: Saying there's no difference between Revan and True Sith is also silly. You have no idea what their rule is, nor what his rule would have been. It's impossible to compare, so saying there's no difference is as wrong as saying there's infinite difference: you simply don't know.

 

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MercenaryAce  2804 posts
Registered: Aug '05
8117_Y-Wing Pilot
Date Posted: 11/22/08 1:41pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Quiet_Mandalorian posted:
Oissan posted:
By that logic, the allies should have stopped fighting the Nazis and let them destroy the Soviets, because that outcome would have been better than having the Cold War for 50 years and Stalin killing as many people as Hitler did.
Indeed. Sadly, it was not to be. sad

And allow the Germans to link up with their Japanese allies and possibly take India, giving them all the resources and position they need to finish off Britain for good?
The war was close enough as is, not helping the SU would have been a disaster.

 

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Charlemagne19  26816 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 11/22/08 2:50pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
MercenaryAce posted:
Quiet_Mandalorian posted:
Oissan posted:
By that logic, the allies should have stopped fighting the Nazis and let them destroy the Soviets, because that outcome would have been better than having the Cold War for 50 years and Stalin killing as many people as Hitler did.
Indeed. Sadly, it was not to be. sad

And allow the Germans to link up with their Japanese allies and possibly take India, giving them all the resources and position they need to finish off Britain for good?
The war was close enough as is, not helping the SU would have been a disaster.


If we're making wishes, we might as well wish Stalin and Hitler had died on chicken bones in the 1930s.

 

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Jedi Ben  9355 posts
Registered: Jul '99
23785_James Bond Jedi
Date Posted: 11/22/08 3:20pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/22/08 3:28pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Jedi Ben
AdmiralNick22 posted:
Fantastic issue. grin

I am curious, however, about peoples interpetation of the final scence with Lucien. Are we supposed to feel hope that he has a secret Jedi enclave to weather the coming storm, or is it insidious that there is yet another Jedi faction out there?

--Adm. Nick


I agree, it was excellent and did something quite unusual - the story was very much character-driven, even the action sequences hinged upon it. I also loved that Zayne conned Gryph to con Haazen and then decided against becoming a Jedi as the Jedi weren't much help to him, whereas Gryph and the others did - so he wants to stick with them.

As for Lucien, due to his immersion in the dark side - which he only survived due to gauntlet - he's seen where dreams of power lead and looks to have rejected that as a consequence. What he seems to care about is maintaining the Jedi ideals that he so badly broke and betrayed in the face a storm he knows to be coming but cannot be avoided. Lucien has finally overcome his "delusions of grandeur".

Finally, the arc with Zayne and the Covenant in both its progression and resolution is very much an emphatic rejection of absolutist thinking, of either-or mentalities - that, if you but calmly contemplate things properly, such harsh and wrong 'remedies' will not be required. The rejection of simplistic, either-or thinking is a lesson well worth learning...should you not have already learnt it in life.

 

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blackmyron  2522 posts
Registered: Oct '05
Date Posted: 11/22/08 4:22pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Beautiful story, brilliantly written, wrapped up the story arc, and all-around enjoyable.

I finished reading this and thought "This is what I've always liked about Star Wars."

The ending was a fantastic twist on the expectations of the KOTOR game-players (set up in the previous issue) and one I hadn't seen coming (although when I was reading I had thought "there's not much space left to explain Lucien's ending comment back from issue #9 - and then it was explained).
Kudos, JJM. I look forward to the next 35 issues.

 

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Quiet_Mandalorian  8380 posts
Registered: Apr '05
40335_Boba Fett
Date Posted: 11/22/08 5:38pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
MercenaryAce posted:
And allow the Germans to link up with their Japanese allies and possibly take India, giving them all the resources and position they need to finish off Britain for good?
No, allowing Germany and Russia to batter each other into total exhaustion. wink

 

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Charlemagne19  26816 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 11/22/08 5:40pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Quiet_Mandalorian posted:
MercenaryAce posted:
And allow the Germans to link up with their Japanese allies and possibly take India, giving them all the resources and position they need to finish off Britain for good?
No, allowing Germany and Russia to batter each other into total exhaustion. wink


The problem is that Stalin's victims are Russians.

He's not a threat because of military power but solely nuclear later on.

So no real point.

 

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Quiet_Mandalorian  8380 posts
Registered: Apr '05
40335_Boba Fett
Date Posted: 11/22/08 5:50pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/22/08 5:55pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Quiet_Mandalorian
Charlemagne19 posted:
The problem is that Stalin's victims are Russians.
Problem? wink

Charlemagne19 posted:
He's not a threat because of military power but solely nuclear later on.

So no real point.
There wouldn't be a "later on" for Stalin. tongue

 

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vodrev 
Registered: Oct '08
42090_Darth Revan
Date Posted: 11/22/08 6:03pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Great issue I was quite happy with the way things were wrapped up and im curious to see if lucien will be featured in any future kotor comics or maybe even get his own comic. My one and only complaint would be that I wouldve like to see admiral karath apologize to zayne for the way he treated him.

 

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Charlemagne19  26816 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 11/22/08 6:11pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/22/08 6:12pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
Quiet_Mandalorian posted:
Charlemagne19 posted:
The problem is that Stalin's victims are Russians.
Problem? wink

Charlemagne19 posted:
He's not a threat because of military power but solely nuclear later on.

So no real point.
There wouldn't be a "later on" for Stalin. tongue


1. Yes, given they're innocent people being murdered and oppressed by communism.

2. Highly unlikely unless Hitler conquered the entire country. Stalin is a coward.

But I get the sentiment.

 

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Quiet_Mandalorian  8380 posts
Registered: Apr '05
40335_Boba Fett
Date Posted: 11/22/08 6:23pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Charlemagne19 posted:
Yes, given they're innocent people being murdered and oppressed by communism.
Can't be helped, really.

Charlemagne19 posted:
Highly unlikely unless Hitler conquered the entire country. Stalin is a coward.
Hmm?

Charlemagne19 posted:
I confess, even I had difficulty caring who won in Enemy at the Gates.
I was pulling for König, though I think it was mostly due to his being played by Ed Harris against Jude Law's Zaytsev. tongue

 

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Leto II  11842 posts
Registered: Jan '00
42114_Jones Attacked
Date Posted: 11/22/08 6:38pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Charlemagne19 posted:
Quiet_Mandalorian posted:
Charlemagne19 posted:
The problem is that Stalin's victims are Russians.
Problem? wink

Charlemagne19 posted:
He's not a threat because of military power but solely nuclear later on.

So no real point.
There wouldn't be a "later on" for Stalin. tongue


1. Yes, given they're innocent people being murdered and oppressed by communism.

2. Highly unlikely unless Hitler conquered the entire country. Stalin is a coward.

But I get the sentiment.

In another time, Revan would be appreciated and well-loved: like prewar Germany just as the National Socialists came to power, or in the Stalin years when jackbooted Soviet police forces stormed across the Russian border, liberating the Baltic states, Ukraine, and the predominantly Muslim states to their south at the point of a gun.

It's all pretty much a matter of perspective.

(Someday we'll all look back at this and laugh nervously.)

 

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PointGiven  771 posts
Registered: Dec '06
6466_Soontir Fel
Date Posted: 11/22/08 8:20pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/22/08 8:20pm (1 edits total) Edited By: PointGiven
Charlemagne19 posted:


2. He could just give the corporation to someone else.



That's quite idealistic isn't it? You can't just give a large corporation to someone else. You have to set up a transition and vet all potentional successors to make sure that he/she is the right person/alien/being for the job. Who better to look out for the interests of the average worker than a Jedi? Perhaps he didn't trust anyone else to take over, who knows?

Charlemagne19 posted:

Being a Jedi requires sacrifice.



The man died on the front lines fighting for the Jedi's cause. That's the ultimate sacrifice


Quiet_Mandalorian posted:
Charlemagne19 posted:
The problem is that Stalin's victims are Russians.
Problem? wink


I don't know about you, but I don't come onto the Lit message board to hear insinuations that the deaths of millions of innocent people are not a problem

 

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beccatoria  1921 posts
Title: Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group
Registered: Dec '06
43404_Luke & Leia
Date Posted: 11/22/08 8:28pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
So, firstly I should probably mention that I did actually enjoy this issue, and having had some time to think about it, I'm a little less sad that Zayne leaves the Jedi. His reasons are sound even if I still wish that there wasn't this perception that trying to help everyone and not making the choices about who lives and who dies was somehow un-Jedilike? But regardless, I look forward to Zayne's continuing adventures.

Regarding Lucien, I come down partially on Charlie's side.

I don't have a particular problem with the Draay Trust conceptually, as envisaged by Barrisson. However, it was not only manipulated by Haazen, but also by Krynda and Lucien. I mean, they were using seers to decide how to invest money which I think is...dishonest, and clearly were using the Trust's funds to advance their own agendas. Technically I'm sure it was run by someone else, but effectively it seemed to be serving as a corporate account for the Covenant. Especially when Lucien is doing things like using it to buy private retreats. Yes, with noble intentions, but nonetheless, he used money he was supposed to be cut off from to BUY A MOON. That's not small change.

I also don't have a particular problem with the lack of an on-page apology from Lucien to Zayne because, well, they're on the same page, and Lucien saves Zayne's life. I consider his actions an acknowledgement of his appalling judgement and a form of apology.

However I do have a bit of a problem with Lucien's ultimate fate. I want to be careful how I phrase this, because it's not a criticism of the comic per se, as I actually find the situation quite interesting. But I think that Charlie has a very good point that Lucien has ended up in exactly the same position as before. Leader of a secret Jedi group, this time designed to rebuild rather than save the Jedi Order. I don't actually think JJM necessarily intended it to read this way, but I can't help but feel that -

1) I'm sure the Jedi Covenant looked like a noble, selfless endeavour when it was created too.

2) Lucien only has that moon due to professional financial misconduct, and in some way is now being rewarded for that as he's managed to set up a place where he's apparently respected and afforded a position of leadership, and actually has a place to disappear to, which, if he wasn't rich, he wouldn't have had.

3) While Lucien never caused death on the scale of Kyp Durron, Charlie has a point that Kyp did return to face judgement and still a lot of people were unhappy with his punishment. I agree with Keralys that likely the Jedi would simply have assigned him something like this - working quietly to atone. But the fact that he didn't return to face judgement and simply decided that he was going to go off, and start a new Jedi sect, could speak of arrogance as much as humility. And I doubt the Jedi Order would have put him in charge of teaching others if they were responsible for his punishment.

I know that he lost his eyes, and yes, that's harsh, but it's also not evidence that he's necessarily changed in his attitudes. I firmly believe he's reavowed his committment to fight the dark side, but that's not the same as addressing the flaws in his own character: arrogance, egotism and a lack of self-esteem he tends to hide through...arrogance and egotism. Neither of which I'm sure the comic shows he has addressed given he's moved from glorifying and seeking the approval of one parent to doing the exact same thing for the other, and he's still wandering around as the leader, the teacher, the guy with the answers. Claiming he's doing so with humility is...a claim; I didn't see anything to prove it was so.

Basically I don't think that Lucien will cause trouble again, but I'm also not sure he's fundamentally a good guy now either?

 

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