Author Topic: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Charlemagne19  26816 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 11/22/08 8:44pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
I don't think it's necessarilly a case that Lucien is PURE evil vs. Pure good either. In fact, I think its more realistic that Lucien honestly hasn't learned a damn thing about any of this but is merely in a better circumstance than before. He's still the same arrogant, elitist, and parent worshiper that he was before. This time, he's no longer got Haazen playing head games with him or his parents to toady to.

So he'll probably do many great and glorious things without the need to prove himself by murdering Padawans.

Still, I note the utter tragedy of it. Lucien is building his little retreat to weather the storm BECAUSE OF A VISION.

 

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MercenaryAce  2804 posts
Registered: Aug '05
8117_Y-Wing Pilot
Date Posted: 11/22/08 9:22pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Quiet_Mandalorian posted:
MercenaryAce posted:
And allow the Germans to link up with their Japanese allies and possibly take India, giving them all the resources and position they need to finish off Britain for good?
No, allowing Germany and Russia to batter each other into total exhaustion. wink

Please, the Russians barely survived as is. Without allied material aide, and if Hitler didn't keep troops and officers int he West to defend against us, the fight would have been over long before anyone was battered into submission.
And if we weren't fighting at all, that means Germany would have taken the Middle East and Africa, giving them all the oil they could use: a huge part of our success was our ability to destroy their oil supplies. To say nothing of how short the war in the East would be if Rommel was commanding.

About Lucien: Well, I don't know. It certainly seems poetic to me. But you do raise some good points...but I think saying he is still just as arrogant is a bit far.

 

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Havac  14313 posts
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered: Sep '05
23735_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 11/22/08 10:40pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Yeah, we're going to be discussing the issue from now on. Not the Many Enemies of Indiana Jones.

 

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PointGiven  771 posts
Registered: Dec '06
6466_Soontir Fel
Date Posted: 11/22/08 10:51pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
There goes my 5,000 word post on Mola Ram tongue

So Hav what are your thoughts on this issue?

 

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cloneCommando1138  1478 posts
Registered: Apr '05
22811_Republic Commando
Date Posted: 11/22/08 11:10pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
I still don't understand the ending- is lucien darth sion? It hints at it but at the same time the comic states he is keeping with the light side

 

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PointGiven  771 posts
Registered: Dec '06
6466_Soontir Fel
Date Posted: 11/22/08 11:16pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
cloneCommando1138 posted:
I still don't understand the ending- is lucien darth sion? It hints at it but at the same time the comic states he is keeping with the light side


In the comic itself, Lucien states that he could have become Sion "a Lord of Pain" but that he chose not to upon reflecting on his parents. It's still possible of course, although the KOTOR CG contradicts this.

However in this thread, John Jackson Miller states that there may be a Darth Sion but not from Lucien.

 

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blackmyron  2522 posts
Registered: Oct '05
Date Posted: 11/22/08 11:29pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
I found it interesting that the "archetype" was there for the taking, though; it ties in with what Kreia said to Atris about there "being the need for a Darth Traya".

(and I do fall into the category of believing that Lucien was redeemed in the end - and that was entirely thanks to Zayne)

 

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Rouge77  7464 posts
Registered: May '05
6464_Anakin Solo
Date Posted: 11/22/08 11:58pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
When it comes to Lucien and his group, I think the question is, whether they will help to re-establish the Jedi Order with Exile's pupils and other surviving Jedi, or do they come to a (peaceful) conflict with the latter ones if their ideas about the future role of the Jedi differ? Of course, there is the possibility that they will become just a little Order of their own which will not be united with the main Jedi Order for a long time, if ever.

 

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burrie  1438 posts
Registered: May '00
16487_Tott Doneeta
Date Posted: 11/23/08 12:44am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
So Lucien loses his eyes?

shock

LUCIEN = KREIA!

 

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TuskenTommy  292 posts
Registered: Jul '06
8052_Tatooine Wasteland
Date Posted: 11/23/08 1:12am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Charlemagne19 posted:


Lucien should publicly admit what he did and face justice in a secular court of law. The Jedi's public image would take a public hit but that may have been just what it needed at that time to avoid some future mistakes.


riiight. Where's that /roll eyes smiley..

-It's my opinion that Jedi are different then normal humans say in America that they can do unlimited amounts of noble Jedi deeds if they are not locked up for crimes commited..If he faces the music in a Coruscant/Jedi court then he can do nothing...
--Now i don't know if he will turn into a kOTOR 1 +/or 2 monster, but i hope not. I like Lucien being just Lucien... I dunno. I thought the KOTOR 2 sith we're the lamest sith we've ever had. Besides Kreyla<sp? .
---Also, i don't believe Luciens attack on teh padawans was full blown darkside. In his warped thinking, he thought he & covenant we're doing the greater good by eliminating a Sith who would ruiun all...Funny, in these visions/premonitions the Jedi having them about some evil is usualy hiimself he's seeing. So in trying to prevent said evil/darkside future said jedi becomes just that..lame! lol

"A wound in the force" ROTF!

-I'm kinda excited about this series from here out. & i'm esp glad Lucien survived.

---I would like to see Czerka(SP?) at some point & the exploitation of the Wookies.. And see Tatooine at some poijnt..

--Question--Fort Tusken---Could this happen in this comic series? Bah! nevermind. I just recalled that in one of the games they we're already called Tusken Raiders thus they already invaded Fort Tusken & got their name..
-Or we're they called just "Sand People" in KOTOR???

 

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Leto II  11842 posts
Registered: Jan '00
42114_Jones Attacked
Date Posted: 11/23/08 1:21am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
PointGiven posted:
There goes my 5,000 word post on Mola Ram tongue

Mola Ram:

He was bald, insane, and had more kids than he knew what to do with. He was the Britney Spears of his age.

 

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Jedi Ben  9355 posts
Registered: Jul '99
23785_James Bond Jedi
Date Posted: 11/23/08 2:08am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
beccatoria posted:
I know that he lost his eyes, and yes, that's harsh, but it's also not evidence that he's necessarily changed in his attitudes. I firmly believe he's reavowed his committment to fight the dark side, but that's not the same as addressing the flaws in his own character: arrogance, egotism and a lack of self-esteem he tends to hide through...arrogance and egotism. Neither of which I'm sure the comic shows he has addressed given he's moved from glorifying and seeking the approval of one parent to doing the exact same thing for the other, and he's still wandering around as the leader, the teacher, the guy with the answers. Claiming he's doing so with humility is...a claim; I didn't see anything to prove it was so.

Basically I don't think that Lucien will cause trouble again, but I'm also not sure he's fundamentally a good guy now either?


I'm inclined to disagree, as it didn't appear to me that Lucien was either in a leadership position - for all we know the greeting he received from the others on the moon could have been 'hello, stranger' as opposed to 'welcome home, master' - that they're a polite bunch. Nor does his monologue suggest fighting the dark side is his aim - he's done that and it was a disaster. If anything he seems to have understood that being passionate about the defenbce of the Jedi led him to ruin, so he isn't doing that.

Does that make a good guy? Well, when it takes the death of padawans, many Jedi, parents and the destruction of a home to create an epiphany, topped off with dark-side immersion, it has to be said, no. But he has stepped out of the delusions he had as leader of the Covenant. He did listen to Zayne, he did acknowledge what needed to be done - finally, accepting somebody's else's plan.

This is all perception though, so people are going to see different things in it and I'm typing this as someone who has pretty much despised Lucien.

 

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beccatoria  1921 posts
Title: Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group
Registered: Dec '06
43404_Luke & Leia
Date Posted: 11/23/08 2:28am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Jedi Ben posted:
beccatoria posted:
I know that he lost his eyes, and yes, that's harsh, but it's also not evidence that he's necessarily changed in his attitudes. I firmly believe he's reavowed his committment to fight the dark side, but that's not the same as addressing the flaws in his own character: arrogance, egotism and a lack of self-esteem he tends to hide through...arrogance and egotism. Neither of which I'm sure the comic shows he has addressed given he's moved from glorifying and seeking the approval of one parent to doing the exact same thing for the other, and he's still wandering around as the leader, the teacher, the guy with the answers. Claiming he's doing so with humility is...a claim; I didn't see anything to prove it was so.

Basically I don't think that Lucien will cause trouble again, but I'm also not sure he's fundamentally a good guy now either?


I'm inclined to disagree, as it didn't appear to me that Lucien was either in a leadership position - for all we know the greeting he received from the others on the moon could have been 'hello, stranger' as opposed to 'welcome home, master' - that they're a polite bunch. Nor does his monologue suggest fighting the dark side is his aim - he's done that and it was a disaster. If anything he seems to have understood that being passionate about the defenbce of the Jedi led him to ruin, so he isn't doing that.

Does that make a good guy? Well, when it takes the death of padawans, many Jedi, parents and the destruction of a home to create an epiphany, topped off with dark-side immersion, it has to be said, no. But he has stepped out of the delusions he had as leader of the Covenant. He did listen to Zayne, he did acknowledge what needed to be done - finally, accepting somebody's else's plan.

This is all perception though, so people are going to see different things in it and I'm typing this as someone who has pretty much despised Lucien.


Since Lucien owned that moon, and bought it in secret with the express intention of possibly using it as a place to rebuild the Order, I'm doubting that there just happened to be a conclave of Jedi there in a case of freakish coincidence. If they were there before his arrival, he was almost certainly responsible for their presence. If they weren't, then he recruited them.

I didn't specifically mean he was going to go out and fight the dark side. I more meant his personal committment to not allowing it to rule him.

And to be honest, if he learned that passionately defending the Jedi was bad, I think he learned the wrong lesson. Defending them to the point where you're willing to commit attrocities based on visions - that's what you shouldn't be doing. And what's his alternative? Set up a sect to wait passively until the Jedi Order collapses so you can pick up the pieces? Isn't that also kind of...harsh? Frankly, if he thinks the Jedi Order is going to collapse he ought to be mentioning this to the Jedi Council, not quietly deciding to keep it to himself because his secret group of disciples have got it covered. If by "covered" you mean not actually helping the Order avoid collapse.

I mean, I'm painting a very bleak picture here, and yes, I absolutely think that Lucien demonstrated much better judgement in this issue and that it goes some way toward some form of atonement. However, I also think there's a certain element of our expectations being so low that simply acting like a relatively sane human being starts to look really good on Lucien.

Lucien may have listened to Zayne and gone along with his plan to kill Haazen, but really we don't know how Lucien feels about his role in matters and what he feels he needs to do to atone, if he feels the need to atone at all. His monologues are entirely self-centered, talking about his parents, how he'll honour them, how he won't become a Lord of Pain. Well, that's all great. But I would like to know how he feels about the terrible things he's done, and we don't really hear about that. The Lucien at the end of the issue isn't one plagued by doubt or guilt. Perhaps because he's genuinely atoned and is at peace with the Force. Perhaps not I...don't know.

I know that I think Charlie puts it very well when he says that Lucien's circumstances are better because the parent he now worships isn't alive for him to feel he disappoints, and because Haazen is no longer around to manipulate him, but I'm not necessarily seeing any suggestion that his personality has changed, or his attitudes.

Yet again, he's taken it upon himself to lead a secret Jedi organisation, funded by the Draay Trust, in preparation for the eventual failure of the Order proper, in the glorious image of one of his parents, because a vision said so. That's more than a passing resemblance.

I don't think he's in danger of becoming an evil man, or a villain in the future. I think he'll probably live out his days as a pacifist Jedi on that moon and perhaps even train wise and corageous Jedi who will do much good.

But I'm also not sure he feels real remorse for the padawans, or Zayne, or any of his actions. I'm not sure he's learned anything. I'm not sure he's wise.

Had Mace Windu killed Palpatine without hesitating in the throne room, likely Anakin Skywalker would never have fallen to the dark side, but the personality flaws and character traits that made it possible would still be there.

And, interestingly, since you say you basically despised Lucien, I kind of never did. I mean, I thought he was a pretty repellant dude, but I found him interesting, and bizarrely sympathetic even as I hated almost everything he did. This isn't me hating on the character just...noting some odd parallels and wondering how much he learned, really?

 

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Rouge77  7464 posts
Registered: May '05
6464_Anakin Solo
Date Posted: 11/23/08 3:06am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/23/08 3:06am (1 edits total) Edited By: Rouge77
Lucien did hint a long time ago - in the issues where Zayne's father was kidnapped by the Moomos - that he had a secret from Haazen and it was never revealed. Perhaps it was this Jedi group?

 

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Jedi Ben  9355 posts
Registered: Jul '99
23785_James Bond Jedi
Date Posted: 11/23/08 3:08am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Becc,

I didn't specifically mean he was going to go out and fight the dark side. I more meant his personal committment to not allowing it to rule him.

* Ah, I see.

And to be honest, if he learned that passionately defending the Jedi was bad, I think he learned the wrong lesson. Defending them to the point where you're willing to commit attrocities based on visions - that's what you shouldn't be doing.

* That's what I see his passion as leading to though: ie. We MUST save the Jedi and do WHATEVER it takes!

And what's his alternative? Set up a sect to wait passively until the Jedi Order collapses so you can pick up the pieces? Isn't that also kind of...harsh?

* Yeah, but it would be very true of Lucien's character: He does not appear able of understanding there are other ways, so it's all out or nothing.

Frankly, if he thinks the Jedi Order is going to collapse he ought to be mentioning this to the Jedi Council, not quietly deciding to keep it to himself because his secret group of disciples have got it covered. If by "covered" you mean not actually helping the Order avoid collapse.

* This is one of Lucien's major flaws: He isn't a team player, the act of creating a secret Covenant says you have no trust in the system as it stands - or your superiors either.

I mean, I'm painting a very bleak picture here,

* Tell you what: You be the pesimist, I'll be the optimist!

and yes, I absolutely think that Lucien demonstrated much better judgement in this issue and that it goes some way toward some form of atonement. However, I also think there's a certain element of our expectations being so low that simply acting like a relatively sane human being starts to look really good on Lucien.

* I have to agree on this. Let's stress that Lucien is at the barest start of a very long and hard road.

Lucien may have listened to Zayne and gone along with his plan to kill Haazen, but really we don't know how Lucien feels about his role in matters and what he feels he needs to do to atone, if he feels the need to atone at all. His monologues are entirely self-centered, talking about his parents, how he'll honour them, how he won't become a Lord of Pain. Well, that's all great. But I would like to know how he feels about the terrible things he's done, and we don't really hear about that. The Lucien at the end of the issue isn't one plagued by doubt or guilt. Perhaps because he's genuinely atoned and is at peace with the Force. Perhaps not I...don't know.

* Perhaps Lucien's story doesn't end here? That JJM is very akin to John Ostrander - a crafty and subtle writer.

I know that I think Charlie puts it very well when he says that Lucien's circumstances are better because the parent he now worships isn't alive for him to feel he disappoints, and because Haazen is no longer around to manipulate him, but I'm not necessarily seeing any suggestion that his personality has changed, or his attitudes.

* Oh, there's nothing definitive, no. It's all guesswork by us all here.

Yet again, he's taken it upon himself to lead a secret Jedi organisation, funded by the Draay Trust, in preparation for the eventual failure of the Order proper, in the glorious image of one of his parents, because a vision said so. That's more than a passing resemblance.

* I'll need to check: Did all 6 of the Covenant see the same vision or just one? There seems to be a difference here as throughout the issue Lucien said he could never see his future yet at the end he can.

I don't think he's in danger of becoming an evil man, or a villain in the future. I think he'll probably live out his days as a pacifist Jedi on that moon and perhaps even train wise and corageous Jedi who will do much good.

* Which would be a form of atonement via the good they achieve.

But I'm also not sure he feels real remorse for the padawans, or Zayne, or any of his actions. I'm not sure he's learned anything. I'm not sure he's wise.

* I think he may have learned some things but that, in and of itself doesn't mean he has wisdom.

Had Mace Windu killed Palpatine without hesitating in the throne room, likely Anakin Skywalker would never have fallen to the dark side, but the personality flaws and character traits that made it possible would still be there.

* True.

And, interestingly, since you say you basically despised Lucien, I kind of never did. I mean, I thought he was a pretty repellant dude, but I found him interesting, and bizarrely sympathetic even as I hated almost everything he did. This isn't me hating on the character just...noting some odd parallels and wondering how much he learned, really?

* For myself, I react very badly to figures in authority abusing their position - which is what Lucien did, but I'm also willing to give someone a chance if they own their errors and mistakes, which he seems to have done here. Remorse and regret may follow, guess we'll see.

 

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