Author Topic: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Nobody145  2171 posts
Registered: Feb '07
42495_Zayne Carrick
Date Posted: 11/23/08 3:42am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Over the past three years, there have been moments when I almost liked Lucien. Most of the time, most of us have loved hating him, but there were sympathetic moments, and occasionally Lucien wasn't a complete maniac. And to be honest, I just like seeing someone learn the error of their ways, which is why I'm going for a more optimistic ending to Lucien's story (assuming this is the end).

I can understand the more cynical, pessimistic point of view too, though, but I just hope that something good came out of this whole Covenant mess (aside from Zayne, but if the galaxy blew up, I'd count his survival as a good thing too).

For this era though, I think many of the Jedi are... disillusioned with the Jedi Council and the majority of the Jedi Order. The Revanchist and Malak are leading the Jedi Crusaders against the Mandalorians, as they believe that's the wrong thing. Lucien and many other Seers, partially out of reverance for Krynda, set up a secret, very aggressive and paranoid cabal to prevent the return of the Sith. Even Zayne, when offered the chance to become an official Jedi, refuses it and chooses to go off with his friends.

I'm not saying secret cabals are right, but that just seems to be the trend- the Jedi of this era are for the most part close-minded, conservative, and too... focused on the Sith to do much else in the grand scheme of things, leading to the Revanchists, the Covenant and even Zayne's own journey. The entire Covenant mess was also covered up, and Jarael seems a bit... shocked at Karath getting the credit (and I hope that whenever Karath shows up again, that he won't still be spouting that "Carrick is a Mandalorian spy!" line, I'm not sure if he's intelligent enough to understand that Zayne isn't one), but Gryph, the con artist, understands how governments and the navy work, and why they're just covering up the whole thing.

My own personal belief is that Lucien was horribly scarred, mentally, by seeing how his whole life had been a bunch of lies, leading to those moments where he's just standing there, muttering to himself. He was like that back at the beginning of Vindication, before Haazen launched that turbolaser strike, and Lucien did apparently follow Zayne's plan to get at Haazen. He had a chance to become Sion, but he didn't. Even if he never knew his father, even if most of his knowledge was second-hand... we've seen in previous issues that Lucien misses his father, like when he was gazing at his father's portrait in... Turnabout, I believe. He's not just trying to spite Haazen by not becoming a Darth whatever, but rather, he's choosing his own path now. Even if all he has are stories of his father... that image of his father, a father who forged his own path, who found a way, that image seems admirable, and Lucien's aspiring towards that image now. His new clothes symbolize that, as they're not the gaudy white, gold-encrusted robes, but rather the classic simple seemingly woven Jedi robes.

I understand the argument that if Lucien knows the end is coming, that he should try to convince the Jedi Council or something, and he is running away from any kind of punishment too, but... well, we've seen the Covenant try to prevent the future and instead, they ended up causing it (with all the Taris Seers dying exactly as they saw on the Rogue Moon). Here, Lucien instead is not going to try to stop the future, but simply prepare for it. True, he could've done it on Coruscant, but I also see it as him setting up his little covenant away from the disaster zone, otehrwise it might be destroyed too.

Even I'm not quite willing to say that Lucien regrets everything, but Lucien has at least changed approaches. Instead of trying to control the future, he'll just ride it out in a quiet corner of the galaxy.

Oh yeah, I don't think Lucien literally has a Force vision of the future, but simply he's free of the other things that were chaining him down, so now he can finally see his own path, or something like that. And he's probably in charge, or is at least senior there, considering he set up that whole Jedi redoubt.

Huh, here I am, sorta defending Lucien Draay. Oh well, that's mainly due to how great the story was. And I'm glad they didn't mess up the Sion continuity. Its a big galaxy, so some coincidences (names, etc.) are possible (not to mention the author probably loves to drive us crazy with those "almost" hints). Or maybe there are always various... candidates for roles, good and evil. Sith Lords, Jedi Masters, etc, who knows.

 

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Charlemagne19  26816 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 11/23/08 4:21am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
In any case, if JJM meant by "Atonement" that Lucien is going to have to spend a VERY long time thinking about what he's done and working out all the kinks in his thinking by Haazen, then it's maybe a better way than Darth Vader who managed to destroy all that was evil in him over the course of a second.

 

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cloneCommando1138  1478 posts
Registered: Apr '05
22811_Republic Commando
Date Posted: 11/23/08 1:03pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
I feel like after all of this, Lucien will become darth sion. I don't see why there would be so much hinting at him becoming darth sion or the lord of pain if he was going to turn away from all of it.

Also, one of the jedi in the end looked a lot like jolee bindo...

 

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DarthAdamentum  661 posts
Registered: Jan '08
45269_Airborne Clone Trooper
Date Posted: 11/23/08 1:07pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Getting tired reading about who Sion is...

bring on Nihilus & Revan for once...

 

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cloneCommando1138  1478 posts
Registered: Apr '05
22811_Republic Commando
Date Posted: 11/23/08 1:33pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
* Also, on the whole whether or not Lucien redeemed himself or not, I think it is clear that he did. He saved gryph and zayne from certain death by throwing them to a safe location away from the bombardment.

 

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Vrook_Lamar  984 posts
Registered: May '08
6210_Max Rebo
Date Posted: 11/23/08 1:39pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
cloneCommando1138 posted:
Also, one of the jedi in the end looked a lot like jolee bindo...


Whose known to have not left Kasyyk for years.

Unless you're trying to say that EVERY black Jedi must be related.

 

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Vrook_Lamar  984 posts
Registered: May '08
6210_Max Rebo
Date Posted: 11/23/08 1:44pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
MercenaryAce posted:
Quiet_Mandalorian posted:
Oissan posted:
By that logic, the allies should have stopped fighting the Nazis and let them destroy the Soviets, because that outcome would have been better than having the Cold War for 50 years and Stalin killing as many people as Hitler did.
Indeed. Sadly, it was not to be. sad

And allow the Germans to link up with their Japanese allies and possibly take India, giving them all the resources and position they need to finish off Britain for good?
The war was close enough as is, not helping the SU would have been a disaster.


If you asked the soviets, they'd argue that the rest of the allies did try to let the Nazis wipe them out.

Doesn't Canderous at one point start talking about how awesome a Mandalorian conquored Republic would be?

 

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cbagmjg  431 posts
Registered: Jul '06
41233_Darth Nihilus
Date Posted: 11/23/08 3:30pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
The jedi failed Revan and Malak by not just turning their backs on them, but the galaxy as well. They let worlds burn just because they were only Mandalorians, not Sith. The jedi teachings of this era were very flawed and while people chaulk Kreia up to being a old coot and nothing more, she tends to make far more sense then most jedi in this era. Perhaps Revan and Malak could of been avoided if the Jedi did what they were supposed to do. If you take refuge in the heart of the Republic and turn your back when others need you the most, then I would call that evil in it's own way. It's not just the Draays who have everything, the jedi have far more power then the Draays ever had and they pretty much sat back and did nothing. Apathy equals death.

And the thing I like the most about Star Wars is while there are good and evil, it's not always one or the other. There is a larger gray section than black and white. The Draays weren't evil just because they were rich. Look at Haazen. He wasn't entitled to anything and he became far more evil than any of the Draays. His jealousy drove him and his arrogance destroyed him. Lucien was far from a good guy, but he sacrificed his body to prevent Haazen from destroying the Temple and every jedi in there. That's probably not what he sat out to do, but he did it none the less.

 

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Charlemagne19  26816 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 11/23/08 3:46pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
cbagmjg posted:
The jedi failed Revan and Malak by not just turning their backs on them, but the galaxy as well. They let worlds burn just because they were only Mandalorians, not Sith. The jedi teachings of this era were very flawed and while people chaulk Kreia up to being a old coot and nothing more, she tends to make far more sense then most jedi in this era. Perhaps Revan and Malak could of been avoided if the Jedi did what they were supposed to do. If you take refuge in the heart of the Republic and turn your back when others need you the most, then I would call that evil in it's own way. It's not just the Draays who have everything, the jedi have far more power then the Draays ever had and they pretty much sat back and did nothing. Apathy equals death.


The galaxy would have survived the Mandalorians, Darth Revan almost brought the galaxy to its knees. We have no way of knowing that if the Jedi had joined Darth Revan's cause, that the entire universe would not have been slaughtered by Revan's madness if not for all the Jedi that were waiting in reserve to oppose Darth Revan. It's a hard choice but just like the Allies not revealing they'd broken the Enigma Code, the Jedi had to hold back in reserve for the true enemy.

Revan.

The Ultimate Evil.

 

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Sentry_21  70 posts
Registered: Nov '07
Date Posted: 11/23/08 4:28pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/23/08 4:30pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Sentry_21
Charlemagne19, you really need to back this stuff up with evidence. Otherwise, you appear to be ranting.

By all accounts, no one knows if the Republic would have survived if the Revanchists had not gotten involved, but the war definitely would have been longer and far more destructive without the Jedi. According to the KotOR CG (based on Bastila's dialogue in KotOR), the primary reason why the Jedi Council chose not to go to war is because Vandar had a vision which foretold the Jedi Civil War -- a vision which the council misinterprets as a warning against battling the Mandalorians. The Jedi were not waiting in reserve to battle Revan... they were waiting because the Jedi Council screwed up (again). If the entire Jedi Order had gotten involved, it is quite possible that Revan and Malak would not have fallen.

As for you repeated insistence that Revan is 'The Ulitmate Evil'... I'm not even sure what that means. Revan was definitely evil towards the end of his reign as DLotS, but he didn't start out that way. In my opinion, he was no more evil than the utterly amoral Mandalorians. Saying that all Jedi are pure good and all Sith are pure evil is a gross simplification.

 

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Charlemagne19  26816 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 11/23/08 4:55pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/23/08 4:57pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
Sentry_21 posted:
Charlemagne19, you really need to back this stuff up with evidence. Otherwise, you appear to be ranting.


I'm not ranting at all. I'm calmly pointing out that treating it like "Revan goes to save the galaxy while the Jedi go sit on their butts" is an irresponsible view given the Sith DO return and the Jedi ARE available to fight them; just as the Council predicted.


As for you repeated insistence that Revan is 'The Ulitmate Evil'... I'm not even sure what that means. Revan was definitely evil towards the end of his reign as DLotS, but he didn't start out that way. In my opinion, he was no more evil than the utterly amoral Mandalorians. Saying that all Jedi are pure good and all Sith are pure evil is a gross simplification.


About the same as the Justice League is pure good and the Legion of Doom are evil.

Or G.I. Joe is pure good and Cobra is Pure evil.

 

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Vrook_Lamar  984 posts
Registered: May '08
6210_Max Rebo
Date Posted: 11/23/08 5:04pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/23/08 5:14pm (4 edits total) Edited By: Vrook_Lamar
Sentry_21 posted:
the primary reason why the Jedi Council chose not to go to war is because Vandar had a vision which foretold the Jedi Civil War -- a vision which the council misinterprets as a warning against battling the Mandalorians.


Since the Jedi Civil War is a direct outgrowth of the Mandalorian war, I'm not sure how valid the distinction between "a warning against battling the Mandalorians" and "a foretelling of the Jedi Civil War" is.

Charlemagne19 posted:

About the same as the Justice League is pure good and the Legion of Doom are evil.

Or G.I. Joe is pure good and Cobra is Pure evil.



An organisation is not its members. On the Justice League (in certain incarnations) you have Superman who is pure good, Batman who is mostly good but not entirely sane and Plastic Man who just mucks about.

Vrook Lamar's "good" isn't Qui Gon Jinn's "good", so Darth Revan's "evil" doesn't have to be Darth Malak's "evil". There no person is ultimate evil in Star Wars except maybe Palpatine in his least sane moments.

Sadly, a lot of people don't realise that Darth Revan is not that awesome guy you played in KotOR 1 who redeems Bastila and destroys the Star Forge. Darth Revan was a guy who turned nice people like Alek into planet murdering monsters and got the back stabbing he deserved. Darth Revan was never redeemed, he died of brain damage and his body went on to do better things.

 

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Charlemagne19  26816 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 11/23/08 5:10pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Vrook_Lamar posted:

An organisation is not its members. On the Justice League (in certain incarnations) you have Superman who is pure good, Batman who is mostly good but not entirely sane and Plastic Man who just mucks about.

Vrook Lamar's "good" isn't Qui Gon Jinn's "good", so Darth Revan's "evil" doesn't have to be Darth Malak's "evil".


Yes, but the Jedi Knights are innately selfless do-gooders.

I don't want the EU to ever have evil Jedi mucking about. The Covenant comes almost close to it but even they were revealed to be Sith pawns.

Likewise, a Sith can never be good.

Vrook is not a bad guy by any stretch of the imagination. He's made a decision based on the evidence that they need to look to be the needs of the majority of the galaxy. It was a mistake but I can't blame him.

Likewise, it may have saved the galaxy from Revan.

 

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cloneCommando1138  1478 posts
Registered: Apr '05
22811_Republic Commando
Date Posted: 11/23/08 5:13pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Vrook_Lamar posted:
cloneCommando1138 posted:
Also, one of the jedi in the end looked a lot like jolee bindo...


Whose known to have not left Kasyyk for years.

Unless you're trying to say that EVERY black Jedi must be related.


It's not just that he's black, he has the same exact style/color facial hair.

 

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Vrook_Lamar  984 posts
Registered: May '08
6210_Max Rebo
Date Posted: 11/23/08 5:16pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/23/08 5:19pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Vrook_Lamar
Charlemagne19 posted:
Yes, but the Jedi Knights are innately selfless do-gooders.


The Jedi Knights are people who are held up to an ideal. I don't mind Jedi who fail to live up to that ideal and I'd find a Jedi who has to work hard to meet that ideal quite interesting. Less than perfect Jedi Knights are needed to make characters like Zayne Carrick more special. However, Jedi who fail to meet up to that ideal should in no way be allowed on the Jedi Council.

Charlemagne19 posted:
Vrook is not a bad guy by any stretch of the imagination. He's made a decision based on the evidence that they need to look to be the needs of the majority of the galaxy. It was a mistake but I can't blame him.

Likewise, it may have saved the galaxy from Revan.



The way Vrook keeps almost letting slip that you're Revan, it almost seems like he's the only member of the Dantooine Jedi Council who feels that brainwashing Revan and lying to him is a bad idea.

On the other hand, Vrook does seem like he was basically invented to be completly unlikable.

 

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