Author Topic: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Rouge77  7467 posts
Registered: May '05
6464_Anakin Solo
Date Posted: 11/23/08 5:19pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/23/08 5:19pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Rouge77
cloneCommando1138 posted:
Vrook_Lamar posted:
cloneCommando1138 posted:
Also, one of the jedi in the end looked a lot like jolee bindo...


Whose known to have not left Kasyyk for years.

Unless you're trying to say that EVERY black Jedi must be related.


It's not just that he's black, he has the same exact style/color facial hair.


I think people are approaching this character from the wrong direction: Lucien's new Jedi group seems to have several, different kind of homages to different characters in KOTOR and other SW. Can't this particular character just be accepted as a deliberate homage to Jolee Bindo - who looks like Jolee because he is intended to look like Jolee - and that this all that there is to this character? confused

 

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DarthRevan211  121 posts
Registered: Feb '08
23590_Darth Revan
Date Posted: 11/23/08 5:26pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Rouge77 posted:


I think people are approaching this character from the wrong direction: Lucien's new Jedi group seems to have several, different kind of homages to different characters in KOTOR and other SW. Can't this particular character just be accepted as a deliberate homage to Jolee Bindo - who looks like Jolee because he is intended to look like Jolee - and that this all that there is to this character? confused


Does anyone have a picture of this Jolee-alike?

 

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Xicer  788 posts
Registered: Aug '08
48419_Imperial Sentinel (51209)
Date Posted: 11/23/08 5:43pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/23/08 6:15pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Xicer
I'll scan one up:




^ and Jolee for comparison.

 

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PointGiven  782 posts
Registered: Dec '06
6466_Soontir Fel
Date Posted: 11/23/08 5:47pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Vrook_Lamar posted:
cloneCommando1138 posted:
Also, one of the jedi in the end looked a lot like jolee bindo...



Unless you're trying to say that EVERY black Jedi must be related.


Oh please. Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. The guy looks like Jolee Bindo, there's nothing about race at all.

 

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Charlemagne19  26817 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 11/23/08 8:13pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Vrook_Lamar posted:

On the other hand, Vrook does seem like he was basically invented to be completly unlikable.


Ironically, that's part of why I always liked him.

 

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Quiet_Mandalorian  8380 posts
Registered: Apr '05
40335_Boba Fett
Date Posted: 11/23/08 8:24pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/23/08 10:31pm (4 edits total) Edited By: Havac
I said end it.

 

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cbagmjg  431 posts
Registered: Jul '06
41233_Darth Nihilus
Date Posted: 11/23/08 8:45pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
I mean didn't Revan, like Vader, become the Dark Lord out of necessity to combat a greater evil?

 

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JohnJacksonMiller  400 posts
Title: Writer:
-Empire
-KOTOR
-Precipice

Registered: May '05
44263_Carth Onasi
Date Posted: 11/23/08 8:47pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Jedi Ben posted:
Finally, the arc with Zayne and the Covenant in both its progression and resolution is very much an emphatic rejection of absolutist thinking, of either-or mentalities - that, if you but calmly contemplate things properly, such harsh and wrong 'remedies' will not be required. The rejection of simplistic, either-or thinking is a lesson well worth learning...should you not have already learnt it in life.


Someone give this man $20.

One of the reasons that I like the discussions I've seen here is that people watch for nuance. People are complicated and their reasons and motives are, too -- and I think most creators try to aim for that, so that things that seem clear-cut at a glance often have a shadow of something else when you look harder at it. (Oh, OK. Most of the time. The Moomo Brothers are deeply unsubtle -- but they don't know that they are, so they're in a bizarre state of grace.)

I won't say which of the debates here are founded and unfounded from my POV, because that's why we tell the stories. It's left the building, it's in your court. But with the exception of some of the theories that would make Oliver Stone dizzy, I would observe most of the debates here tend to have their foundation, on both sides, on some large or small thing we tried to say ("Lucien sought a better way"/"Lucien thinks he's above the law" or even, at the risk of bringing it up again, "the Jedi are not classist"/"maybe not intentionally, but they are in Haazen's eyes"). Not saying what relative weight those views have -- just that we can see where people would see it that way.

I'm glad we were able to stimulate these kind of discussions here -- it's so much more fun than what's-that-guy's-name-in-the-background-on-page-X. (Though that can be fun sometimes, too -- if I know the answers!)

 

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Manisphere  2939 posts
Registered: Aug '07
51444_WH419: Imperial Knight
Date Posted: 11/23/08 8:52pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
cbagmjg posted:
I mean didn't Revan, like Vader, become the Dark Lord out of necessity to combat a greater evil?


What was the greater evil that made Vader turn? Vader or Anikan turned because he was carefully unsupported by those close to him while being very emotionally supported by a secret Sith Lord. He was flat out squeezed into it over years. I'm not a gamer but wasn't the Revan thing a bit different?

 

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Sentry_21  70 posts
Registered: Nov '07
Date Posted: 11/23/08 9:00pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/23/08 9:19pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Sentry_21
Vrook_Lamar posted:
Sentry_21 posted:
the primary reason why the Jedi Council chose not to go to war is because Vandar had a vision which foretold the Jedi Civil War -- a vision which the council misinterprets as a warning against battling the Mandalorians.


Since the Jedi Civil War is a direct outgrowth of the Mandalorian war, I'm not sure how valid the distinction between "a warning against battling the Mandalorians" and "a foretelling of the Jedi Civil War" is.


Well, here is what the book says:
"In a premonition he also foresees the destruction set to befall the galaxy in the Jedi Civil War. Sadly, the warnings of this prophecy are all for naught when the jedi Council misinterprets it as a warning against engaging Mandalore the Ultimate in battle. The resulting series of events leads to the Sith's resurrection and the death of Master Tokare."

The guide implies that the vision was only able to come true because the Council misinterpreted it and thus they did not investigate the true threat that it foretold.

Charlemagne19 posted:

About the same as the Justice League is pure good and the Legion of Doom are evil.

Or G.I. Joe is pure good and Cobra is Pure evil.


The problem with your reasoning is that the Jedi are not a group of idealized superheroes. Yes, they have superhuman abilities, but they are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. They possess all of the same flaws as the other beings that populate the Star Wars universe. As with any organization, you are going to find a few bad apples within the Jedi Order. These people may not be traditional villains, but they will be unpleasant or downright evil people in their own way.

I can understand your rather black and white view of the Jedi and Sith... Lucas obviously meant them to represent good and evil--the black hats and white--but Star Wars history is littered with Jedi who fell to the dark side, and with Sith who attempted to bring peace and order to the galaxy.

Somehow, I can't picture the Sith getting up every morning and saying, "Hello world. its time to do some evil!" Concepts such as pure good and evil are always slippery and difficult to define. At what point does someone become evil? Or good for that matter? You really have to handle these determinations on a case by case basis. Motives and reasons have to be taken into account; People are ultimately responsible for their own choices, but they rarely become good or bad in a vacuum.</rant>

 

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Havac  14343 posts
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered: Sep '05
23735_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 11/23/08 10:35pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Xicer posted:
I'll scan one up:




^ and Jolee for comparison.

They look nothing alike, other than the fact that they're both black, bald, and have goatees.

Look, folks, Jolee Bindo!

 

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Jedi Ben  9357 posts
Registered: Jul '99
23785_James Bond Jedi
Date Posted: 11/24/08 2:09am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
JohnJacksonMiller posted:
Jedi Ben posted:
Finally, the arc with Zayne and the Covenant in both its progression and resolution is very much an emphatic rejection of absolutist thinking, of either-or mentalities - that, if you but calmly contemplate things properly, such harsh and wrong 'remedies' will not be required. The rejection of simplistic, either-or thinking is a lesson well worth learning...should you not have already learnt it in life.


Someone give this man $20.

One of the reasons that I like the discussions I've seen here is that people watch for nuance. People are complicated and their reasons and motives are, too -- and I think most creators try to aim for that, so that things that seem clear-cut at a glance often have a shadow of something else when you look harder at it. (Oh, OK. Most of the time. The Moomo Brothers are deeply unsubtle -- but they don't know that they are, so they're in a bizarre state of grace.)

I won't say which of the debates here are founded and unfounded from my POV, because that's why we tell the stories. It's left the building, it's in your court. But with the exception of some of the theories that would make Oliver Stone dizzy, I would observe most of the debates here tend to have their foundation, on both sides, on some large or small thing we tried to say ("Lucien sought a better way"/"Lucien thinks he's above the law" or even, at the risk of bringing it up again, "the Jedi are not classist"/"maybe not intentionally, but they are in Haazen's eyes"). Not saying what relative weight those views have -- just that we can see where people would see it that way.

I'm glad we were able to stimulate these kind of discussions here -- it's so much more fun than what's-that-guy's-name-in-the-background-on-page-X. (Though that can be fun sometimes, too -- if I know the answers!)


Oh, author reply- cool!

I'll take that $20 in £s - although then it'll be only a tenner! happy

 

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Xicer  788 posts
Registered: Aug '08
48419_Imperial Sentinel (51209)
Date Posted: 11/24/08 3:38am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/24/08 3:39am (1 edits total) Edited By: Xicer
Havac posted:
They look nothing alike, other than the fact that they're both black, bald, and have goatees.

Look, folks, Jolee Bindo!



I'd pay good money to see Dave Chappelle play Jolee Bindo in a live-action KOTOR movie. laugh

 

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Vrook_Lamar  984 posts
Registered: May '08
6210_Max Rebo
Date Posted: 11/24/08 4:30am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Charlemagne19 posted:
Vrook_Lamar posted:

On the other hand, Vrook does seem like he was basically invented to be completly unlikable.


Ironically, that's part of why I always liked him.



Whenever I see a character who is like that, I always refuse to hate them.

 

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DarthAdamentum  662 posts
Registered: Jan '08
45269_Airborne Clone Trooper
Date Posted: 11/24/08 5:20am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
cbagmjg posted:
I mean didn't Revan, like Vader, become the Dark Lord out of necessity to combat a greater evil?


yes, Revan did it for the greater good but Vader did it for his love for Padme.

 

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