Jedi Council Forums - Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)

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Author	Topic: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
Lord_Hydronium Title: Literature Gardener Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 11/26/08 11:57am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	DarthAdamentum posted: you just never know... Yeah, sorry, in here we pay attention to canon. This is where you want to be. -----signature----- Great midis have little midis Swimming round inside 'em And little midis have lesser midis And so ad infinitum.
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MercenaryAce Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 11/26/08 12:10pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	DarthAdamentum posted: Lord_Hydronium posted: DarthAdamentum posted: zayne can end up as...revan No, he can't. If the fact that they are completely unlike wasn't enough, we've seen Revan in the comics. you just never know... You do when the Essential Guide to the Force spells it out that the Revanchist is Revan. -----signature----- "I am no man...I am a space station!" Another star wars ships, droids and troops site: http://armiesofstarwars.com/ It does have info found nowhere Move all sig, for great justice
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Grey1 Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 11/26/08 12:28pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	Carlis posted: Maybe Zayne turns into... Gryph! Oh yeah, transporter accident episode! Cool! When's the next shuttle crash? -----signature----- Jacen had learned that one can meet the Universe [...] with fear, or with hatred, or with despair. Or one can choose to meet it with love. Jacen had chosen. But still, he was astonished to discover that the Universe could love him back.
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 12/2/08 4:26pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	I finally had the opportunity to read this issue and just wanted to say that I loved it! When I first read Commencement, I really despised Lucien. I thought of him as the major villain. I never expected him to eventually realize the error of his ways and to actually join forces with Zayne and perform the heroic act that destroyed the true villain. I like surprising twists like that, and I like relatively happy endings too. I also expected Lucien to be killed off, but I like this ending better. Instead of trying to prevent the inevitable destruction of the Jedi Order, he is preparing a hidden group of Jedi to survive the catastrophe, and at the same time, he is working to make up for his own crimes. As for Zayne, I enjoyed his role in this issue. I loved his line about Hazen NOT being in his "vision" of the future. I can understand why Zayne didn't want to join the Jedi Order, but I hope and expect that he will still be a Jedi Knight, righting wrongs and helping others as he travels through the galaxy, going wherever the Force may lead him, in the company of his friends.
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SithStarSlayer Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 12/3/08 9:18am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	Sinrebirth posted: Not as far as I'm aware. Darth Sion is a title which, as far as we're aware, and this is per the KotoR Campaign Guard, already belongs to a Marauder who served under Exar Kun... That's why I did a double-take when Haagen Daz prattled about calling him "Sion". -----signature----- Lucas didn't ruin my childhood but he sure wrecked Vader's ^^Foolish men mistake transitory semblance 4 eternal fact^^ o[]\|\|]ooooooooo[0]\|\|[]{ Gal: 5:19-21 Philippians 2:9-11
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Vrook_Lamar Registered: May '08	Date Posted: 12/3/08 11:50am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 12/3/08 11:59am (1 edits total) Edited By: Vrook_Lamar
	MercenaryAce posted: DarthAdamentum posted: Lord_Hydronium posted: [quote=DarthAdamentum]zayne can end up as...revan No, he can't. If the fact that they are completely unlike wasn't enough, we've seen Revan in the comics. you just never know... You do when the Essential Guide to the Force spells it out that the Revanchist is Revan.[/quote] Ah, but when have you seen the Revanchist and Zayne Carrick in the same room at the same time? Zayne's Revan, he's just been using mind trick on Alek. Or possible the Jedi Council. Or maybe the audience. Or John Jackson Miller. Or Leyland Chee. Or maybe both. Sinrebirth posted: Not as far as I'm aware. Darth Sion is a title which, as far as we're aware, and this is per the KotoR Campaign Guard, already belongs to a Marauder who served under Exar Kun... That's an interpretation. No definate evidence that Darth Sion takes his title until after the Great Sith War. The paragraph that talks about him taking his name is a summary of the later paragraphs. He might have become Darth Sion only after studying with Traya and Nihilus at Malachor. I have no idea how I feel about the possibility of there having been Darths running around in Exar Kun's army.
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SithStarSlayer Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 12/3/08 12:45pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	If Zayne is Revan, I'll tattoo a picture of Revan's mask on my right butt-cheek and Zayne's mug on my left. -----signature----- Lucas didn't ruin my childhood but he sure wrecked Vader's ^^Foolish men mistake transitory semblance 4 eternal fact^^ o[]\|\|]ooooooooo[0]\|\|[]{ Gal: 5:19-21 Philippians 2:9-11
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DarthAdamentum Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 12/3/08 2:31pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	Lord_Hydronium posted: DarthAdamentum posted: you just never know... Yeah, sorry, in here we pay attention to canon. This is where you want to be. lighten up wil ya... til his face is revealed he could be anyone... -----signature----- And in their hearts, they never forgot the Jedi. The hatred for the Jedi Order burns in their veins like fire, and echoes in their teachings.
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Master_Keralys Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 12/3/08 2:52pm Subject: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	No, he couldn't. The Revanchist could be a number of people, but for example, he can't be Zayne, Malak, or Vandar, Vrook, or any number of other people. We know exactly where Zayne and Revan were at the time of the destruction of Serroco, and that from the comics alone, much less from the CG which explicitly laid out that the Revanchist was Revan, and we know plenty of people that he can't be. For right now, it's pretty clear that JJM is intentionally leaving the name out of it, and that he's running a different direction with the comic. In any case, Zayne is unequivocally not Revan. -----signature----- God made man. Man rejected God. God became the man Jesus Christ, died and rose again to life, saving man from himself. The craziest story ever told. The truest.
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MistrX Registered: Jun '06	Date Posted: 12/6/08 7:55pm Subject: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	Glad to see it ended and the culmination of so many storylines coming to a close. I'd say as an arc, the story does a fantastic job of wrapping up the main story and he finale is a good part of that. Alone, the issue is a little lacking, maybe because half of it is just Zayne and Lucien fighting/fake fighting. Personally, I'm really glad to see Lucien finally take Zayne's side and make the ultimate plan with him. Lucien has done some dark-sided things, but everything he does stems from his belief in the light. As close as he's moved to darkness, I still didn't quite buy him going completely over to Haazen's insane, murderous plan. Had his mother's death really pushed him to his own rage and insanity to the point of having to be killed in this arc, I would've considered it a waste. The way it turned out I think is perfect for him. And we finally figured out what he was talking about way back in "Homecoming"! Thank you, JJM! Man, I was waiting for that and we got it. Good to see. Nice to get that little epilogue to, to see where our character will go from here. Jarael's temptation to go with Malak was interesting and was nice to see her consider. It's going to be interesting to see how she'll handle it if/when the truth about Rohlan turns out to be what everyone is expecting. Now that they're free to do what they please, is our crew getting a new ship? It seems that the Moomos won't be part of the next arc, so they may need one. Vrook_Lamar posted: Charlemagne19 posted: the fact is that the last thing we need in the EU is a nother Jolee Bendu. What on earth is wrong with Jolee Bindo? He was like, the only nice Jedi in KotOR 1 (as opposed to the zero nice Jedi in KotOR 2, lol). I don't know. Zez Kai-Ell was a pretty good guy, having apparently seen the error of his ways. Of course, that didn't stop him from trying to strip the Exile of her powers. Indigo45879 posted: MercenaryAce posted: From what I remeber, Revan and his followers went bad because they increasingly started using the Mandolorians own brutal tactics against them. well it was mostly the dark side energies from malachor, plus all the sith teachings revan picked up. However, using the mandos own tactics against them seems like a way to fight fire with fire I actually would say the reverse, with the war doing most of the work and the Sith teachings/Malachor putting them over the top. Charlemagne19 posted: There's a fun irony if Lucien's new Covenant is actually the foundation for the Prequel Jedi. I.e. While Lucien has helped the Jedi survive, at heart, he's still passed on horrible lessons. I'm not sure how horrible they would be if that version of the Order lasted for almost 4,000 years. Quiet_Mandalorian posted: Charlemagne19 posted: Given they're one of the most evil races in the galaxy, THE ENTIRE GALAXY. Oh, in comparison to whom, exactly? Trandoshans Xicer posted: Did the end of this comic look very similar to the end of the JvS comic to anyone else? It also strangely reminded me of Paul from the end of Dune Messiah and in Children of Dune. It just gave me that kinda feeling. Now that you mention it, yeah. Though no telepathic floating green pom-poms, thank goodness. Charlemagne19 posted: [quote=Master_Keralys]Sullust makes the most sense to me. I wouldn't be surprised if JJM quietly made that suggestion in the future or in a short story or some such. I rather liked Lucien's end and fate. Very fitting. As posted above, this is atonement, not redemption. He's having to work at it and earn it, and he got a start already. He lost his eyes for killing Haazen, and he lost everything he had once had - everyone dear to him, his fame and prestige, etc. It's not Jolee Bindo! What's interesting actually is DID LUCIEN LEARN ANYTHING AT ALL? I doubt JJM had this in mind, but honestly, it's entirely possible that. A. Lucien regrets nothing of what he did. B. He'd do it again. C. He's still making the exact same mistakes as before. [/quote] His mother's dead, I'm guessing he learned something. [quote=Charlemagne19] There's something distinctly wrong with the Jedi who go on the Revanchist cause, even if it's a flaw in the Order as a whole. [/quote] Not necessarily. There's a reason Revan killed a number of Jedi at Malachor. It's because a number weren't buying into his ideas and weren't following that path. So some of them were probably decent to the end. [quote=Charlemagne19]Do you have any evidence that Revan is 1000x worse than the Mandalorians or is that just an assertion? As for Revan's motivations, the Holocron of Darth Bane also shows Kreia was lying. Revan cared only for power for its own sake, not protecting the galaxy as a Sith. [/quote] Or he simply chose not to put information specific to his era into a holocron meant to pass information on through millennia. [quote=Vrook_Lamar] Doesn't Canderous at one point start talking about how awesome a Mandalorian conquored Republic would be?[/quote] Yes he does. To which one of the Exile's (I think) responses was the ol' "I don't deal in 'what ifs'", which I think actually applies to a few discussions in this topic. [quote=Charlemagne19][quote=cbagmjg]The jedi failed Revan and Malak by not just turning their backs on them, but the galaxy as well. They let worlds burn just because they were only Mandalorians, not Sith. The jedi teachings of this era were very flawed and while people chaulk Kreia up to being a old coot and nothing more, she tends to make far more sense then most jedi in this era. Perhaps Revan and Malak could of been avoided if the Jedi did what they were supposed to do. If you take refuge in the heart of the Republic and turn your back when others need you the most, then I would call that evil in it's own way. It's not just the Draays who have everything, the jedi have far more power then the Draays ever had and they pretty much sat back and did nothing. Apathy equals death.[/quote] The galaxy would have survived the Mandalorians, Darth Revan almost brought the galaxy to its knees. We have no way of knowing that if the Jedi had joined Darth Revan's cause, that the entire universe would not have been slaughtered by Revan's madness if not for all the Jedi that were waiting in reserve to oppose Darth Revan. It's a hard choice but just like the Allies not revealing they'd broken the Enigma Code, the Jedi had to hold back in reserve for the true enemy. Revan. The Ultimate Evil. [/quote] I'm going with Jolee on this one. Both Revan and the Mandalorians would have put the galaxy through a rough patch, maybe a really long one. It would have come around, though, and recovered because it always does. [quote=Manisphere][quote=cbagmjg]I mean didn't Revan, like Vader, become the Dark Lord out of necessity to combat a greater evil?[/quote] What was the greater evil that made Vader turn? [/quote] Padme. [quote=Havac][quote=Xicer]I'll scan one up: ^ and Jolee for comparison.[/quote] They look nothing alike, other than the fact that they're both black, bald, and have goatees. Look, folks, Jolee Bindo! [/quote] I disagree. I think that would look like Jolee Bindo As Drawn By Brian Ching. Obviously we'll never get that, thank goodness. [quote=Charlemagne19] Did he? How would we know? Okay let me rephrase. It would make an astoundingly poor story to have the man who nearly conquered the galaxy and crush it under the rule of a Sith Empire to be less evil than the guys just essentially having a giant soccer hooligan party (The Mandies). [/quote] Isn't there a better analogy than soccer hooligans? Like the Mongols or something? [quote=Charlemagne19][quote=RevantheJediMaster][quote=Charlemagne19][quote=DarthAdamentum]Revan knew what he was doing being a Sith & using the darkside. His "sacrifice" meant something...[/quote] And by the time of Darth Bane's holocron, he no longer cared. If the galaxy would survive and he'd die, he'd destroy the galaxy because he now sought power for power's sake. That's the nature of the Dark Side. It makes you evil. [/quote] Yes, we already knew Revan was evil as a Sith, but your claim that he is the ultimate evil has yet to be supported. There seems to be some conflict between what the games say and what the holocron says regarding his intentions, so perhaps we should wait until some more material becomes available (probably either through TOR or the comics) before we make a complete judgment.[/quote] I left the Ultimate Evil thing behind awhile back. But yes, he's certainly more talented than Malak and as a Sith he's more of a danger to the Republic. Given the Mandalorians only invaded some Outer Rim words, they're certainly not a threat to the galaxy as a whole either. Also, the guy who wrote the Darth Bane novel wrote KOTOR. So, there's really no conflict in my mind. [/quote] The Mandalorians didn't stop at the Outer Rim, though. They reached Duro, at least, and devastated it. Maybe further, but my expertise on the Mandalorian War is lacking. [quote=Charlemagne19][quote=RevantheJediMaster] That's true, but if it wasn't for the Revanchists they wouldn't have had much of a fight and you can bet they probably would have conquered the Republic if the Revanchists hadn't interfered.[/quote] I don't see that as likely at all. I can't imagine the Mandalorians, a single species, defeating the Republic at all. This isn't the Confederacy vs. an Unarmed Republic. The Republic has fleets and so on. [/quote] Single species? The Mandalorians, similar to the Sith, were more than a species, they were a union of groups and individuals who shared an idea that was accepted/forced upon those they conquered. It's not just some small group of nomads taking on the Republic, this is a major galactic player. These aren't the scattered, fragmented mercs of "modern" Star Wars, they really are, thanks to guys like Cassus Fett, more of a centralized, organized government and military. And remember, they were kicking the Republic's behind before Revan's group stepped in. They seemed likely to conquer the Republic to me. Basically, see Sinrebirth's post. [quote=Charlemagne19]I don't mind that Zayne didn't stick with the order. It does fit his personality better, and it does seem he will be able to better help people in his own way now. Zayne is too good for the order at this point. Maybe this will mean he won't be hunted when the purge comes, but I'm not sure if I even want Zayne popping up post KotOR2. Either way I could probably deal with though. Personally, I encourage Dark Horse to ignore the whole business about the Exile being the Last Jedi. It's a plot that diminishes luke and I hope there's at least a couple of thousand Jedi Knights in hiding afterwards to explain why the KOTOR MMORPG has a huge number of them. [/quote] Because you can train many Jedi in 300 years? [quote=DarthAdamentum] zayne can end up as [hl=black]nihilus or revan... IMHO[/quote] He would need one heck of an upgrade. [quote=Master_Keralys]No, he couldn't. The Revanchist could be a number of people, but for example, he can't be Zayne, Malak, or Vandar, Vrook, or any number of other people. We know exactly where Zayne and Revan were at the time of the destruction of Serroco, and that from the comics alone, much less from the CG which explicitly laid out that the Revanchist was Revan, and we know plenty of people that he can't be. For right now, it's pretty clear that JJM is intentionally leaving the name out of it, and that he's running a different direction with the comic. In any case, Zayne is unequivocally not Revan.[/quote] Nor can he canonically be the Exile, unless he gets a sex change. -----signature----- We are well and truly forked
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Drewton Registered: Jan '09	Date Posted: 1/8 5:52pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	What I've liked most about KOTOR series is the endless speculation that resulted from each issue. The event I wanted to see most was Lucien's fall, and becoming Darth Sion. Not only did it make sense story-wise, but it would also add a lot to Sion's character. Therefore, this issue was a disappointment for me. It also left a lot of unanswered questions. Did I miss something completely obvious, or is anyone else wondering what happened to the other Covenant Jedi? The whole issue seemed rushed, and I think it would have worked better in two parts. Or even if #33 was cut to a few pages, as most of it was unecessary because it developed a character that was only alive for two more issues, and none of the flashbacks really had anything to do with the rest of the arc's plot. I'd expected Haazen to learn of and react to Krynda's death in some way. That was a great plot opportunity missed. In the end, he'd just gone insane, Palpatine-style, instead of the sympathetic character he was in #33. IMO, the series has been teasing us with possibilities, which evolts into speculation that has sometimes lasted now for years, disappointing us when it proves false. Maybe I'm just hoping for game tie-ins too much, and I'm not reading it as it being its own series rather than having anything to do with the games. I have to say, though, this mega-arc was excellently planned. John Jackson Miller seemed to have planned everything in Vindication at the time of Commencement. Excellently done on that. George Lucas's failure to do this was one of the main faults of the PT. This is definitely my favourite thing happening in Star Wars right now. Heh, now that the series seems to be separated into mega-arcs, I'm now thinking of #1-35 being KOTOR I, and the games being IV and V... -----signature----- http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-sith-lords-massive-improvement-mod The Sith Lords Massive Improvement Mod
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JohnJacksonMiller Title: Writer: -Empire -KOTOR -Precipice Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 1/9 4:11pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	It wasn't exactly that everything in "Vindication" was planned by "Commencement," but the broad strokes were there -- and then I think by "Flashpoint" much more was fleshed out. We always knew where point B would be, just not always what steps would come between. I played a role in suggesting possible links to game figures -- and in teasing a number of possibilities that we did have plans of carrying through on (i.e., Malak) and those we didn't (i.e., Sion) -- so I can't in fairness complain when that sword cuts both ways. We work to raise people's interest in a lot of possibilities -- and then work to come up with directions that maybe they didn't even imagine. The theory usually is -- as one of my editors has put it -- give the readers the story you think they need, rather than the story you think they want. Because they've already read that story, in their minds. Lucien does speak to that, literally, in this issue -- whatever future others might have imagined for him, he chooses to be his own man. That's a bit of subtext that only the gamer, knowing the future, might see, so hopefully, that is a consolation. There is a bit less of that kind of mindplay as we move into the next meta-arc -- though we are never completely away from the big events of history, as we'll see as the year progresses. "Some objects may be closer than they appear..." -----signature----- Best, John Jackson Miller Fiction: http://www.farawaypress.com Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/jjmfaraway Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/johnjacksonmiller Research: http://www.comicschronicles.com Webcomic: http://www.swordandsarcasm.com
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sidious618 Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 1/11 2:20pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	I've been really behind in KoToR. I just read issues 29-35 today. Suffice to say that I'll never be behind again. It was an amazing arc and I loved the conclusion. I can see how there may be a bit of disagreement on it but I thought it fit perfectly. The way that the pieces all fell together was fantastic to behold. My only regret is that so much of it ended that the whole Covenant arc is now over and done with. I loved the mystery behind it and now it's all been answered! I hope that as the series goes on the next arcs will harken back to previous events (I suspect they will judging by the way the series has been in the past). A fantastic job, JJM. On the Lucien debate- I don't care whether he was redeemed or not. He's a kick ass character and definately my favorite. I loved his last few pages, though, and if we don't see him again that'll be a perfect ending for him. But if at all possible bring him back! -----signature----- But in purple, I'm stunning!- Londo Mollari, Babylon 5
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