Jedi Council Forums - Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)

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Author	Topic: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
DarthAdamentum Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 11/5/08 7:54am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	cbagmjg posted: And Nihilus cares nothing for the Sith; or its teachings; or the Jedi. Not to mention he loses a lot during the Mandalorian Wars, so it's easy to predict Lucien as the future Nihilus, so we'll see. you cant exactly say that because Nihilus is a Sith Lord first & foremost... only when his hunger took over he then forsook both his Sith cause & the Jedi & all living beings in the galaxy. phew. -----signature----- And in their hearts, they never forgot the Jedi. The hatred for the Jedi Order burns in their veins like fire, and echoes in their teachings.
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Zorrixor Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 11/5/08 9:21am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/5/08 9:24am (2 edits total) Edited By: Zorrixor
	DarthAdamentum posted: cbagmjg posted: And Nihilus cares nothing for the Sith; or its teachings; or the Jedi. Not to mention he loses a lot during the Mandalorian Wars, so it's easy to predict Lucien as the future Nihilus, so we'll see. you cant exactly say that because Nihilus is a Sith Lord first & foremost... only when his hunger took over he then forsook both his Sith cause & the Jedi & all living beings in the galaxy. phew. I guess it ultimately depends how much he thought of himself as Darth Nihilus, which is hard to know due to the name is never actually mentioned in the game (well, other than the info box on his mask if you pick it up). Did he actually choose to take a Sith name? Or did Darth Traya just give him one? Was he just learning from Traya in a desperate bid to stop his hunger from devouring him, and willing to learn the Sith ways no matter what? (Making him more like a Haazen/Lucien type of person who may not have wanted to be a Sith, but simply had nobody but Traya to turn to.) Of course, he did make a holocron, which does tend to point at him having once cared about being a Sith Lord. Though, to be honest, its one of the reasons why I've always disliked him having one. I preferred 'Darth Nihilus' more being a title he was just given by Traya, but not something he particularly cared about...given he had gone beyond names and titles, and even beyond the very notion of having any sense of self identity at all. I almost like the idea of it having been a bit tongue-in-cheek on Traya's part. "I name you... let's see... Darth Nihilus", taking a jab at the fact he was devouring himself from within, and that there was nothing left of him, no friends, no family, no love, no identity... just his hunger. I expect I may be among a minority though in wanting Nihilus to have been somewhat, not tragic per se, but not having particularly wanted to become what he did, having only been someone trying at all costs to survive, and becoming a monster through it. He may have had a lust for power, but he may not necessarily have realised he was opening Pandora's Box at the time. Anakin Skywalker might have been happy to rage that he needed more power, but he didn't exactly want to end up a walking android... I kind of see Nihilus the same way. Plus I just like to make sense of why the guy would have needed Traya. The idea of Traya helping turn him into a monster is a bit cliche to me, too easy to just say "She nurtured his lust for power", and rubs against the fact that she later saw him as an abomination. I'd prefer it to be more a case of her just trying to help him control his hunger, but him ultimately ending up a failure and being consumed by it. In effect, "I want more power! I need to learn how to control this!" and Traya pretty much slapping him and telling him his understanding of power was naive and that he must let go of his hunger, resulting in why Nihilus gets pissed at Traya and casts her out.
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Indigo45879 Registered: Oct '08	Date Posted: 11/5/08 5:38pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/5/08 5:39pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Indigo45879
	come to think of it, the actual name nihilus was used rarely if i remember right. They spoke of him as if he was a nightmare destroyer, all hearing and all-seeing. in my opinion that just made the boss fight more disappointed, bad alignment of events in my opinion. maybe it should have been: traya kills masters----->find ship off of dantooine-----> find ebon hawk on telos where atris has been turned-----> defeat atris, find out where traya is-----> leave as nihilus is not yet attacking------> go to malachor-----> kill sion and traya, find out where revan is, then blow up the planet-------> get picked up by onasi's fleet----->go back to telos, where darth nihilus is attacking-----> get aboard ravager-----> epic boss battle on a side note, i do reverse my stance, and i know believe lucien is nihilus, and sion is a random sith marauder from the sith war, haazen is..........not sion, kreia isn't anybody else besides herself I.E. she's not arren kae, she's not krynda or her sister. And zayne would be the exile had it not been for other publications it's a change from my starting theory that krynda, haazen, and lucien were traya, nihilus, and sion respectively, because it would make for an interesting background for the sith triumvarite. -----signature----- proud KOTOR and legacy era fan. Revan fanboy Kreia: "Revan was power. it was like staring into the heart of the force"
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 11/5/08 6:21pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	Havac posted: Yeah, someone like Krayt might admire Kun for his power, regardless of how he got it, or Ruin might admire Naga Sadow's cleverness in crafting amulets to increase his power . . . but Palpatine's just going to laugh and go, "I could kick your ass, and I don't even need your toys. If I were insecure enough to feel the need to make my own trinkets, then you'd really see something, kid." I think the Sith are always going to respect success and power . . . but they're not exactly the praise-lavishing type. If you're using a crutch and they're not, they're going to know the difference, and they're not going to feel inferior. Yes, Palpatine was a GENERALIST Sith however. He went against a lot of the Sith Lords who enjoy having shticks. Exar Kun had his amulets and weird temples to increase his power. He was an awesome Sith Scholar anyway. Haazen has remade himself from top to bottom out of amulets because his natural force power sucks. However, that's the Sith Way as described in Palpatine's "The Weakness of Inferiors" you compensate for where you're weak by using people around you who are strong.
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Havac Title: Lit Mod of War Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 11/5/08 9:46pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	Yeah . . . but Sith still prefer not to have to rely on amulets, not to have weaknesses that force you to grab boosters. 'Tis better to win than to lose, no matter how you do it . . . but 'tis even better to be strong enough to win outright without needing a little help from an artifact. -----signature----- "Is there a captain's hat involved in this?"
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Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 11/5/08 11:38pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/5/08 11:38pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Excellence
	Arthas? Ner'zhul? . . . Worth at least 500xp, Zor. No more. -----signature----- Rock-a-by baby, on the treetop, Beaming with pride, the filth they hold, But when the wind blows, my temper implodes, High above a pit, filled with sharkticons, Down will come hardcover addicts, beaming no more. ©
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 11/5/08 11:49pm Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	Havac posted: Yeah . . . but Sith still prefer not to have to rely on amulets, not to have weaknesses that force you to grab boosters. 'Tis better to win than to lose, no matter how you do it . . . but 'tis even better to be strong enough to win outright without needing a little help from an artifact. Maybe, however, any Sith will tell you its better to strong no matter how you get it. Haazen lacks the Midiclorians, so he fixed his problem.
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Nobody145 Registered: Feb '07	Date Posted: 11/6/08 12:08am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	I think while most Sith would applaud how well Haazen has manipulated most of the involved parties (the Draays, the Jedi, even Zayne somewhat), I think some Sith might still disapprove of how Haazen hasn't bothered to improve himself so much. Sith wouldn't have any problem with using amulets and talismans and such to boost their own power, since a win is a win, and how they won isn't really all that important. THe thin is though is that I think both Jedi and Sith believe in improving themselves, in correcting their own flaws. Haazen, while probably always a bit weak in the Force, especially next to Barrison Draay, also didn't bother to try and improve his own skills too much, based on what some characters said. Its not like its the first time a supposedly Force weak person flunked, but later on turned out to be quite skilled, given the chance, like Zayne and Obi-wan. Haazen's problem is that he never bothered to fix himself. Haazen's still formidable now, but I wonder if he somehow lost all his magic Sith stuff (never underestimate Zayne's random destructive power), what he would do then. He's a good manipulator, and he's spent a long time planning his "vindication" but so far, that's mainly because things have gone as he's planned. Haazen has held off any attackers using his artifacts, and he's got Lucien busy trying to kill Zayne, but if things start going wrong, I wonder how quickly he could adapt. -----signature----- Don't mind me, I'm nobody important.
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Zorrixor Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 11/6/08 1:58am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4) - Date Edited: 11/6/08 2:05am (1 edits total) Edited By: Zorrixor
	Indigo45879 posted: come to think of it, the actual name nihilus was used rarely if i remember right. They spoke of him as if he was a nightmare destroyer, all hearing and all-seeing. in my opinion that just made the boss fight more disappointed, bad alignment of events in my opinion. maybe it should have been: traya kills masters----->find ship off of dantooine-----> find ebon hawk on telos where atris has been turned-----> defeat atris, find out where traya is-----> leave as nihilus is not yet attacking------> go to malachor-----> kill sion and traya, find out where revan is, then blow up the planet-------> get picked up by onasi's fleet----->go back to telos, where darth nihilus is attacking-----> get aboard ravager-----> epic boss battle I remember speculating once about whether the original game plan might have been for Nihilus to be the final boss, and if it got dropped at the last minute in the whole rushed conclusion the game ended up with. You're right, as Nihilus always seemed like the villain of the game; then suddenly, bam, dead, next please. What I always found intriguing was the fact their original idea was to let Darth Traya's identity not be fixed, with it being possible for Atris to become Darth Traya if you played the game a certain way. Well, you kill Atris before Nihilus, which would have made Nihilus the final boss, no? Its such a shame so much of the final part of KOTOR2 was cut. Nobody145 posted: Haazen's still formidable now, but I wonder if he somehow lost all his magic Sith stuff (never underestimate Zayne's random destructive power), what he would do then. He's a good manipulator, and he's spent a long time planning his "vindication" but so far, that's mainly because things have gone as he's planned. Haazen has held off any attackers using his artifacts, and he's got Lucien busy trying to kill Zayne, but if things start going wrong, I wonder how quickly he could adapt. I imagine Haazen would go back to being a chump, which I expect is the point. Haazen and Zayne are possibly the best direct light/dark parallel we've ever seen. If we take them both as having started out as below average, without a great deal of Force-potential, and a large mountain to climb, then Haazen truly is the dark side half. He took the quick and easy path, whereas Zayne has taken the slow but steady road of the light, and in my eyes vindicates a lot of what I've long believed that midichlorians mean very little (as first proved by Jorj Cardas), they just affect how difficult it is to hear the Force, not your end capacity for doing so. Anyone can do anything, Zayne could (and has) become awesome, his original handicap should be able to be overcome--and he's doing it! But Haazen lacked any self confidence, believed he was a failure, and so was a failure, needing to rely on trinkets to overcompensate. Personally I've always liked to think that this is why Skywalkers are so susceptible to the dark side, because the Force comes easier to them than anyone else. Guys like Jorj Cardas though, or Zayne or Haazen to a lesser degree: people who the Jedi do not think have what it takes, they have the hardest road to travel, and it makes them appreciate what they've got much more when they finally get there (unless they cheat, a la Haazen).
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 11/6/08 2:20am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	Nobody145 posted: Haazen's still formidable now, but I wonder if he somehow lost all his magic Sith stuff (never underestimate Zayne's random destructive power), what he would do then. He's a good manipulator, and he's spent a long time planning his "vindication" but so far, that's mainly because things have gone as he's planned. Haazen has held off any attackers using his artifacts, and he's got Lucien busy trying to kill Zayne, but if things start going wrong, I wonder how quickly he could adapt. True, I'm not suggesting being incredibly lazy (Darth Sloth?) is a virtue by any Sith Lord's standards. Of course, we don't know if Haazen is just naturally weak and doesn't apply himself or whether he got himself a boost by devoting himself to the Dark Side. Lets face it, the Dark Side is quicker and more seductive. Plus, really, the moment that Haazen awoke as an abomination against god....well....the criminal he always had a problem catching became not a problem at all.
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Vrook_Lamar Registered: May '08	Date Posted: 11/6/08 2:34am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	Zorrixor posted: What I always found intriguing was the fact their original idea was to let Darth Traya's identity not be fixed, with it being possible for Atris to become Darth Traya if you played the game a certain way. Well, you kill Atris before Nihilus, which would have made Nihilus the final boss, no? Its such a shame so much of the final part of KOTOR2 was cut. I'm pretty sure that "Atris becomes Darth Traya" was going to involve Atris being at Malachor V Trays Academy Core. I honestly doubt that there would be an ending that cut out the last level. I think Nihilus is pretty much a fake big bad whose supposed to draw suspicion away from Kreia.
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Zorrixor Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 11/6/08 3:00am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	Vrook_Lamar posted: I'm pretty sure that "Atris becomes Darth Traya" was going to involve Atris being at Malachor V Trays Academy Core. I honestly doubt that there would be an ending that cut out the last level. IIRC the pictures from the guide had Darth [Atris] Traya in the holocron chamber on Telos. Vrook_Lamar posted: I think Nihilus is pretty much a fake big bad whose supposed to draw suspicion away from Kreia. I don't think Kreia was trying to put people off the scent... she made no attempts to hide what she was. She gladly killed the Jedi Council right in front of the Exile's eyes and wanted the Exile to follow her to Malachor in the hope of the Exile choosing to follow her, in all senses of the word. As far as I've ever been concerned, the whole plot was about Kreia forging the Exile into a weapon to be used against Nihilus to destroy him, as she could not do it herself. Kreia never hid what she was though, she just refused to give a straight answer, which ultimately said more about her own beliefs than "I am a Sith" ever would. Frankly, I still don't particularly believe that Kreia considered herself "Darth Traya" anymore than Haazen considers himself Darth Hayze really. Kreia talked Sith when it served her purpose, dancing between the light and dark camps as need dictated. If Nihilus didn't care for the Sith or their teachings, he probably got a lot of it from Kreia and her own ideology.
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Ulicus Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 11/6/08 5:23am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	Atris=Traya involved her going to Malachor where she played, almost word for word, the exact same role as Kreia (at least when it comes to the original Traya stuff, where all your companions attack her and the like). You may have still encountered her on Telos prior to that, however. -----signature----- This is an imaginary story... aren't they all supposed to fit together, though? An animated cartoon about Obi-Wan and Padawan Anakin would have made more sense. Recipient of Golden Ewok™ and Golden EwokTrooper™
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Ackbar_Van_Gungan Registered: Oct '04	Date Posted: 11/6/08 8:24am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	Charlemagne19 posted: Nobody145 posted: Haazen's still formidable now, but I wonder if he somehow lost all his magic Sith stuff (never underestimate Zayne's random destructive power), what he would do then. He's a good manipulator, and he's spent a long time planning his "vindication" but so far, that's mainly because things have gone as he's planned. Haazen has held off any attackers using his artifacts, and he's got Lucien busy trying to kill Zayne, but if things start going wrong, I wonder how quickly he could adapt. True, I'm not suggesting being incredibly lazy (Darth Sloth?) is a virtue by any Sith Lord's standards. Of course, we don't know if Haazen is just naturally weak and doesn't apply himself or whether he got himself a boost by devoting himself to the Dark Side. Lets face it, the Dark Side is quicker and more seductive. Plus, really, the moment that Haazen awoke as an abomination against god....well....the criminal he always had a problem catching became not a problem at all. A Star Wars version of Seven would be quite interesting. A council of 7 Sith Lords Sloth-Darth Acedia (Latin for Sloth, Would be a huge powerful but slow moving Sith) Wrath-Darth Maliss (From Malice, Anger based, similar to Sion or Greed-Darth Variss (Based on Avarice, Leader of the Seven Sith, Obsessed with power, Glutton-Darth Lutton (Nihilus-like, consumes force powers) Envy-Darth Invidia (Starscream-esque desire for everything else the Seven Sith have, backstabber, betrayer) Pride-Darth Vanitas (sisters with Asmoda, beautiful and deadly Lust-Darth Asmoda (sisters with Vanitas, seductive and deadly I don't think we would see a story like this but maybe for the next Katarn games -The Rebel Gungan -----signature----- My SFF blog: http://www.yetistomper.blogspot.com/ 1st Post= Golden Ewok™ No Prize! Unfortunate Sacred Slab of the Church of Waru -Curator of the Byss Orbiting Holographic History of Space Flight Museum
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Zorrixor Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 11/6/08 8:38am Subject: RE: Knights of the Old Republic #35, "Vindication" Part 4 (of 4)
	Ackbar_Van_Gungan posted: Sloth-Darth Acedia (Latin for Sloth, Would be a huge powerful but slow moving Sith) Wrath-Darth Maliss (From Malice, Anger based, similar to Sion or Greed-Darth Variss (Based on Avarice, Leader of the Seven Sith, Obsessed with power, Glutton-Darth Lutton (Nihilus-like, consumes force powers) Envy-Darth Invidia (Starscream-esque desire for everything else the Seven Sith have, backstabber, betrayer) Pride-Darth Vanitas (sisters with Asmoda, beautiful and deadly Lust-Darth Asmoda (sisters with Vanitas, seductive and deadly That'd be neat and rather original for a change. If the Dark Council in TOR is anything like that it'd be cool... although I expect the Council members won't get much individual attention and the focus all be on the Emperor.
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