Author Topic: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside)
Sir_Gideon 
Registered: Jul '08
41980_Clone Emperor
Date Posted: 8/20/08 6:39pm Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside) - Date Edited: 8/22/08 11:05pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Havac
To be fair, the greatest proponent of Force user pants is Drew Karapshyn. If he had written Darth Caedus, Caedus would be capable of snuffing out suns thousands of lightyears away with post-dinner flatulence. The Legacy of the Force series did introduce a rather nifty and unique Force technique in flow walking, but they are writting by minimalist authors who prefer to intensify the drama by focusing the scale of the galactic events down to a dozen or so people.

 

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BROWNHORNET 
Registered: Dec '07
Date Posted: 8/20/08 7:01pm Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside)
Say what you will about Drew Karpyshn (sp) but he wrote a compelling, chilling Sith Lord in Bane in only two books whereas LOTF couldn't get the job done in nine. Also, DK's take on the other Sith characters: Zannah, Githany, Kopecz, Qordis, Kaan were also well done.

I too was disappointed with Caedus. As I've said before the first five books were fine as Jacen slowly accepted his dark destiny. He barely scraped by Mara, but he did. He fought Luke almost to a stand still, but after that they made him very weak and ineffective. I think Denning was trying to get his menace back in Invincible, but it was too late. Plus, Denning didn't help by having Jaina cut off his arm in their first battle and then kill him in their second.

I think the issue a lot of times with him was telling instead of showing. The book cover blurbs and many of the characters told us how dangerous Caedus was, but we rarely ever saw it. Kyle Katarn should've died by Caedus's hand. Perhaps some of the other well known Jedi too. I think it's time to move some of those guys off the stage and prepare for Jaina and then Ben's generation of Jedi to step forward. Caedus could've been a great instrument to do that while also upping his cred.

 

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Charlemagne19 
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 8/20/08 7:03pm Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside)
BROWNHORNET posted:


I think the issue a lot of times with him was telling instead of showing. The book cover blurbs and many of the characters told us how dangerous Caedus was, but we rarely ever saw it. Kyle Katarn should've died by Caedus's hand. Perhaps some of the other well known Jedi too. I think it's time to move some of those guys off the stage and prepare for Jaina and then Ben's generation of Jedi to step forward. Caedus could've been a great instrument to do that while also upping his cred.


The problem with this argument is that it consistently argues that Ben, Jaina, and Jacen are being held back by the Old Generation.

I argue, instead, they're just not as interesting.

 

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EwoksRTinyWookiees 
Registered: Mar '08
Date Posted: 8/20/08 7:09pm Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside)
It seemed that despite the novels inferring that Caedus was even greater than his grandfather, there was extreme hesitation to make him really standout as such. Yes he killed MJS, but barely, and he was being beaten down the whole fight. Jaina... don't even get me started.

In the final Clone Wars trade Vader barely survives a trap set by a few remaining Jedi and needs the 501st to bail him out. Luke, with little training, takes Vader to the limit in his first duel and manages to beat him less than a year later with no additional training. Surviving by the skin of one's teeth seems to be a Skywalker family trait.

 

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Jedimarine 
Registered: Feb '01
14543_Crimson Empire
Date Posted: 8/20/08 7:18pm Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside)
Charlemagne19 posted:
BROWNHORNET posted:


I think the issue a lot of times with him was telling instead of showing. The book cover blurbs and many of the characters told us how dangerous Caedus was, but we rarely ever saw it. Kyle Katarn should've died by Caedus's hand. Perhaps some of the other well known Jedi too. I think it's time to move some of those guys off the stage and prepare for Jaina and then Ben's generation of Jedi to step forward. Caedus could've been a great instrument to do that while also upping his cred.


The problem with this argument is that it consistently argues that Ben, Jaina, and Jacen are being held back by the Old Generation.

I argue, instead, they're just not as interesting.



This and they have gone to great lengths to cut down the new generation while the old withers on the vine, aging into uselessness.

correction...aging into "60 is the new 40" to cover for a poorly plotted concept.

 

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Whizkid 
Registered: Sep '03
24189_Palpatine
Date Posted: 8/20/08 7:21pm Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside)
Jedimarine posted:
Charlemagne19 posted:
BROWNHORNET posted:


I think the issue a lot of times with him was telling instead of showing. The book cover blurbs and many of the characters told us how dangerous Caedus was, but we rarely ever saw it. Kyle Katarn should've died by Caedus's hand. Perhaps some of the other well known Jedi too. I think it's time to move some of those guys off the stage and prepare for Jaina and then Ben's generation of Jedi to step forward. Caedus could've been a great instrument to do that while also upping his cred.


The problem with this argument is that it consistently argues that Ben, Jaina, and Jacen are being held back by the Old Generation.

I argue, instead, they're just not as interesting.



This and they have gone to great lengths to cut down the new generation while the old withers on the vine, aging into uselessness.

correction...aging into "60 is the new 40" to cover for a poorly plotted concept.


60 year old people are "uesless" as characters? Don't get this mentality.

 

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Charlemagne19 
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 8/20/08 7:24pm Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside)
Jedimarine posted:


This and they have gone to great lengths to cut down the new generation while the old withers on the vine, aging into uselessness.

correction...aging into "60 is the new 40" to cover for a poorly plotted concept.


I think there's also the issue that 30 is the new 15.

People have difficulty taking Jacen Solo and Jaina seriously because they act like teenagers. Say what you will about the Han Solo Trilogy but Han Solo lived a rich and full life with many girlfriends and interesting life experiences. Jacen Solo has done many heroic things but he doesn't even have Luke's experience with girls (and he had a lot of them in Marvel).

It's hard to relate to Jacen Solo as an adult or Jaina when they are treated as essentially Johnny and Jane Quest. Wheras characters like Kyle Katarn are treated as adults.

 

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Ulicus 
Registered: Jul '05
41990_Duron Qel-Droma
Date Posted: 8/20/08 7:24pm Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside) - Date Edited: 8/20/08 7:27pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Ulicus
Sir_Gideon posted:
To be fair, the greatest proponent of Force user PREEMPTIVEPANTSery is Drew Karapshyn. If he had written Darth Caedus, Caedus would be capable of snuffing out suns thousands of lightyears away with post-dinner flatulence.

thinking Drew specifically had Bane reflect on the fact he couldn't do the super amazing feats ascribed to the Sith Lords of the ancient past. It's not like he came up with the Thought Bomb, either.

Are you sure you're not thinking of Kevin J. Anderson? He's the guy who wrote about Jedi apprentices throwing Star Destroyers across systems, and Sith Lords forcing multiple suns to implode and the like.

 

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Jedimarine 
Registered: Feb '01
14543_Crimson Empire
Date Posted: 8/20/08 7:28pm Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside) - Date Edited: 8/20/08 7:30pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Jedimarine
Whizkid posted:
Jedimarine posted:
Charlemagne19 posted:


The problem with this argument is that it consistently argues that Ben, Jaina, and Jacen are being held back by the Old Generation.

I argue, instead, they're just not as interesting.



This and they have gone to great lengths to cut down the new generation while the old withers on the vine, aging into uselessness.

correction...aging into "60 is the new 40" to cover for a poorly plotted concept.


60 year old people are "uesless" as characters? Don't get this mentality.


I did not say 60 was useless...but as Charles just mentioned about Jacen and Jaina being treated as teenagers...this universe has a terrible time writing these characters where they are in their lives...It's like the entire span of the DR license has been "frozen" developmentally at the "Zahn Duology/YJK" period.

 

-----signature-----
So Devaronian females are suppose to have thick fur, eh?
Has anyone seen one outside an essential guide?
...
When even the creative teams refuse to make fuzzy Devaronians...it should be a clue, folks.
Thus endeth the lesson.
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Charlemagne19 
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 8/20/08 7:33pm Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside) - Date Edited: 8/20/08 7:34pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
It's a sad world when Harry Potter has more believable romantic relationships than Star Wars.

It's also why I don't think shuffling the characters along is a great idea.

Because I fear we'll be stuck with "adult" *finger wag* YJK.

Cindel Towani, Jedi Master!

 

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Jedimarine 
Registered: Feb '01
14543_Crimson Empire
Date Posted: 8/20/08 7:37pm Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside)
Charlemagne19 posted:

Cindel Towani, Jedi Master!




wow...that actually generated a physical shiver down my spine.

 

-----signature-----
So Devaronian females are suppose to have thick fur, eh?
Has anyone seen one outside an essential guide?
...
When even the creative teams refuse to make fuzzy Devaronians...it should be a clue, folks.
Thus endeth the lesson.
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_Catherine_ 
Registered: Jun '07
23521_Handmaiden
Date Posted: 8/20/08 7:47pm Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside)
Mine too. A physical shiver of unbridled excitement, that is.

 

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Nobody145 
Registered: Feb '07
42495_Zayne Carrick
Date Posted: 8/20/08 8:27pm Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside)
Charlemagne19 posted:
Nobody145 posted:
I guess the idea of sending a dozen Jedi Masters after Caedus never really occured to them. Heck, just Luke was enough, but... originally, the twins killing each other prophecy just seemed like another crazy, evil Vong idea, and now they turned out to be right. Good thing Anakin didn't have a twin at least.


Wouldn't Caedus just kill them all?

Seriously, it's actually canon that 12 Jedi is no more effective than the most effective one as we saw with Palpatine. Mace only starts winning after the dead weight is gone.



True, but that was Palpatine, one of the greatest Sith Lords of all time. Then again, they were trying to play up Caedus to be this great Sith Lord, but letting Caedus kill that many Jedi Masters might've been a bit much. I mainly suggest the "strength in numbers" approach because there were several fights with Caedus that involved multiple Jedi, both in Fury I think, and while they took losses and injuries, the fights did drag on for a bit, it wasn't like with Palpatine who cut down three Jedi Masters in under a minute. So considering how many named Jedi Masters they have lying around (Kyp, Corran, Kyle), it just seems like an obvious idea to try. Instead they send one Jedi Knight in the form of Jaina, who had a few weeks of Mando training. And its not like its a quality problem, where Mace was much stronger than the other Masters, here they just send Jaina, who definitely isn't the strongest in the NJO, I think. They don't even have a specific prophecy for this crisis, just a vague "Sword of the Jedi" thing to go on.

I know these things are supposed to come down to duels, it just seemed so pointless after they wrote Luke, the obvious solution, out of the final battle.

 

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Thanos6 
Registered: Apr '99
16250_Gilad Pellaeon
Date Posted: 8/20/08 9:36pm Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside)
Well, it's like this, see--

When Jacen was sitting down and writing up his new, official Dark Lord Of The Sith character sheet, he decided to put as few points as possible into actual Force powers, and all that he could into the ability of "Make My Opponents Act Like Idiots."

Unfortunately, to get more points, he also took the Insane and Incompetent character flaws. He really should have re-rolled the chance cubes. shame_on_you

 

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Whizkid 
Registered: Sep '03
24189_Palpatine
Date Posted: 8/20/08 10:23pm Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside)
Jedimarine posted:
Whizkid posted:
Jedimarine posted:
[quote=Charlemagne19]

The problem with this argument is that it consistently argues that Ben, Jaina, and Jacen are being held back by the Old Generation.

I argue, instead, they're just not as interesting.



This and they have gone to great lengths to cut down the new generation while the old withers on the vine, aging into uselessness.

correction...aging into "60 is the new 40" to cover for a poorly plotted concept.


60 year old people are "uesless" as characters? Don't get this mentality.


I did not say 60 was useless...but as Charles just mentioned about Jacen and Jaina being treated as teenagers...this universe has a terrible time writing these characters where they are in their lives...It's like the entire span of the DR license has been "frozen" developmentally at the "Zahn Duology/YJK" period.[/quote]

But what does the age of the big 3 have to do with this? The only next-gen character who was "held back" by DR was Jaina IMO. Jacen progressed nicely throughout the NJO-LotF. Ben grew leaps and bounds in LotF. If anything, the problem is the lack of consistently used next-gen characters.

 

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"Do, or do not. There is no try"
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